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Post by islandgas on Oct 21, 2018 16:57:16 GMT
Giggs and kanchelskis used to do ok on the wings a few years back! Quite literally 25 years ago pal. Also don't think we'll be getting players of their calibre anytime soon either... I'm pretty sure wingers playing as wingers on their natural foot would do quite well actually pal!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 17:15:12 GMT
It’s clear now DC wants the sack so don’t get your hopes up. Don't understand why people keep saying he wants the sack. He doesn't strike me as a quitter. He’d get a nice pay packet about 3 years 6 months worth and probably walk straight into another job he ain’t a quitter just got his head screwed on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 17:38:30 GMT
It doesn't really matter if they come inside or go outside the fact is you have two more influential players on the pitch who are willing to take players on unlike Sinclair or Ollie Clarke but that isn't necessarily their faults as they are just not that sort of player. Unfortunately under DC not too many of "that sort of player" get signed rather a lot of plain average run of the mill footballers all fighting for places which none of them excel enough to tie down. It does matter because they stretch the play if they stay wider which creates gaps between full backs and Center half’s which in turn creates more open opportunities for our players to have decent chances rather than forcing it every time through the middle.[ Back fours hate being stretched they love ticking the full backs in and playing against teams that are narrow and predictable. br]I’ve been saying it all season but DC hasn’t tried it once yet. That may be true but also leaves us more open, probably why very few (if any) managers play 4-4-2 with old school, touch line hugging wingers. Shame really.
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Post by althepirate on Oct 21, 2018 17:50:31 GMT
I'm concerned that the natural, positive, aggressive DC has been suppressed by new coaching ideas. The second half was the old DC,bin the badges and let's crack on up the table.
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Post by peterhooper57 on Oct 21, 2018 17:56:24 GMT
I'm concerned that the natural, positive, aggressive DC has been suppressed by new coaching ideas. The second half was the old DC,bin the badges and let's crack on up the table. Easier said than done, what D.C. needs is David “Boris” Mehew, a right footed player who scored around 50 goals from the wing, with Percy on the left, happy days.
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Post by WeAreTheGas on Oct 21, 2018 17:57:04 GMT
It does matter because they stretch the play if they stay wider which creates gaps between full backs and Center half’s which in turn creates more open opportunities for our players to have decent chances rather than forcing it every time through the middle.[ Back fours hate being stretched they love ticking the full backs in and playing against teams that are narrow and predictable. br]I’ve been saying it all season but DC hasn’t tried it once yet. That may be true but also leaves us more open, probably why very few (if any) managers play 4-4-2 with old school, touch line hugging wingers. Shame really.
And even teams that play 4-3-3 and have three bodies in the middle of the park still play with inverted wide men.
Rodman is the closest thing we have to an old-fashioned winger in the current squad IMO, as he's got the pace and power to run with the ball and hold off a man etc. Bennett and Matthews want to come infield and play in pockets.
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Post by singupgas on Oct 21, 2018 18:01:04 GMT
Same team that finished more or less, need to be starting for me on Tuesday.
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Post by neilv93 on Oct 21, 2018 18:38:53 GMT
Don't bother Ollie, you're wasting your time. Anyone who thinks we're ever going to play with "out-and-out wide men" who get down the line and cross it clearly haven't watched much football in the past decade. Things have changed. What we need to keep doing is what we did second half. Parts and, when fit, THD getting high and wide from full back, Matthews and Bennett coming inside to create space for the formers and someone like Linesy/Upson slotting into become almost a third centre-back when they bomb forward. Also beggars belief that some fans want to try playing with "natural" wingers to cross the ball into the box for 5'10 Nichols, 5'9 Reilly, 5'10 Jakubiak and Payne who has won one header since 2012. Crossing the ball into non-physically dominant strikers will never and should never be our aim. Clarke, Bennett and Sercombe are also capable of testing keepers with their edge-of-the-box shooting, that's obviously why we play inside... Final point, separate from the quoted WATG post but how on earth did the OP give Upson MOTM? Had an okay second half and was undoubtedly our worst first half performer Ollie Clarke-aside. Upson would be my fifth choice CM at this point. If a winger gets to the bye line and cuts it back on the deck it doesn't matter about height, movement in the box to find space like the goal the Jak scored against Yeovil, our full backs are just crossing it to the players you mentioned so they're wasting their time doing that then, but then i'm over sixty and don't understand football.I'm glad you agree
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 20:45:23 GMT
If a winger gets to the bye line and cuts it back on the deck it doesn't matter about height, movement in the box to find space like the goal the Jak scored against Yeovil, our full backs are just crossing it to the players you mentioned so they're wasting their time doing that then, but then i'm over sixty and don't understand football.I'm glad you agree HaHa, good one, but seriously in our game at Burton their most dangerous player was their left winger, he could go outside or inside and he caused us problems, hit the post too, so a good wide player or winger or whatever you call them can be very useful still.
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Post by stapletongas on Oct 21, 2018 20:55:32 GMT
We've never seen DC try it, so what you're saying has no evidence to back it up. DC doesn't even try it for period in matches for variation. its a no brainier and the equivalent of making 2 substitutions.
And you don't think that perhaps there's a reason DC has never tried it? (i.e. he knows they aren't hug-the-touchline wingers, and wouldn't be effective as hug-the-touchline wingers?)
As for 'no evidence to back it up', I suggest you go and listen to Bennett's recent interview with the club when he clearly stated that his favoured position is either "through the middle or on the left".
And you know this? If DC tells them to play on their natural side then they do it. They are professional footballers. DC does seem to favour wides playing on their unnatural side, Bodin played on the right and how many right footed players has he had out on the left, he's even had Sercombe out there, so applying your logic of DC playing players where they ask, Sercs must love it in that position! Natural width stretches the opposition back four and opens up gaps, it also means defenders cease to have the ball and the player they are marking all in their line of sight, that causes chaos for defenders. Players cutting in early allows the back four to close up tight and narrow, depriving forwards space and the ability to lose their marker, meanwhile defenders have the player they are marking and the ball in intheir line of sight and saying thank you very much! Width is tried and trusted.
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Post by Blackbeard on Oct 21, 2018 21:15:46 GMT
Not sure quite why Tony Craig did what he did but was a perfect clothes-line to the throat of Mackie from what I saw
Took the yellow for the team - possibly was tasked with roughing him up as the guy was a fruitcake with a clearly suspect character
I picked Bonham for MoM not because he was so amazing but more because no one else was worthy
Like two seasons ago if no one was worthy give it to Sincs
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Post by WeAreTheGas on Oct 21, 2018 21:29:54 GMT
And you don't think that perhaps there's a reason DC has never tried it? (i.e. he knows they aren't hug-the-touchline wingers, and wouldn't be effective as hug-the-touchline wingers?)
As for 'no evidence to back it up', I suggest you go and listen to Bennett's recent interview with the club when he clearly stated that his favoured position is either "through the middle or on the left".
And you know this? If DC tells them to play on their natural side then they do it. They are professional footballers.
DC does seem to favour wides playing on their unnatural side, Bodin played on the right and how many right footed players has he had out on the left, he's even had Sercombe out there, so applying your logic of DC playing players where they ask, Sercs must love it in that position!Natural width stretches the opposition back four and opens up gaps, it also means defenders cease to have the ball and the player they are marking all in their line of sight, that causes chaos for defenders. Players cutting in early allows the back four to close up tight and narrow, depriving forwards space and the ability to lose their marker, meanwhile defenders have the player they are marking and the ball in intheir line of sight and saying thank you very much! Width is tried and trusted.
The flaw in this argument is that, once again, you are referring to players playing on their "unnatural sides" when it's the side that suits them most.
I'm friends with a Pompey ST holder, and he says that Bennett played 90% of his football there on the left. But now DC's playing him there it's his 'unnatural position'? Give over (Oh, and playing Bodin on the right didn't work out too badly, eh?)
But we could go round in circles on this, so I'll leave it there!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 22:48:30 GMT
Play the wide men on their natural side, stretch the opposition defence, then we might see some goals.
The thing is, Bennett's 'natural side' is where he played yesterday - left. And Matthews' is where he played yesterday - right. The days of a wide man always being most comfortable on the side of his strongest foot are long gone.
Neither Bennett or Matthews are going to hug the touchline, get down the wing and whip a ball in. It's just not the style of player they are.
The width is going to have to come from the fullbacks.
I partly agree with you although i think bennett especially could play on the right. Also matthews and bennett did actually give us width in the 2nd half and it was a big factor in the improvement imo.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 22:53:06 GMT
Play the wide men on their natural side, stretch the opposition defence, then we might see some goals. Exactly, c'mon DC how difficult is this AND more entertaining. I sometimes wonder if managers give any thought about the number of fans that come and watch. Any other business would! I find it very exiting seeing wide players cutting in onto their stronger foot like billy bodin,ronan curtis and kyle bennett at our level as well as players like messi and hazard in top class football.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2018 23:08:40 GMT
Anyone who has followed football at all will know that teams can succeed and fail with.
1] inverted wingers 2] traditional wingers 3] one up front 4] two up front 5] three up front 6] a high press 7] only pressing in your own half 8] lots of width 9] narrow 10] long ball style 11] short passing style Surely we all know that you can win things or get relegated with all of the above?
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Post by neilv93 on Oct 22, 2018 0:51:45 GMT
I'm glad you agree HaHa, good one, but seriously in our game at Burton their most dangerous player was their left winger, he could go outside or inside and he caused us problems, hit the post too, so a good wide player or winger or whatever you call them can be very useful still. All jokes aside, I take your point and agree to an extent. I just think 1. the personnel in our squad means we can't use "traditional" wingers, and 2. I don't think it's the best way forward. Agreed about the Burton lad, likewise the fella on the left that came on for Southend (Grant I think it was?) but typically, most teams operate with inverted "inside forwards" if you will. I know we're far from the top 6 of the PL but look at their wide men: Rashford, Martial, Sanchez, Salah, Mane, Sane, Sterling, Bernardo Silva, Hazard, Pedro, Willian, Lamela, Son, Lucas, Iwobi, etc. How many of those are get-down-the-line-and-cross-it wingers? Very few if any. Factor in the likes of Ozil, Mata and Eriksen operating in wide berths and you see more of playmaker-out-wide approach - which we utilised second half with Bennett and Matthews (who has to start going forward, btw) to good effect IMO. To go back to the original debate with this entire thread, I don't think our wide-men are the reason we struggle to score. It's clear why we struggle to score and that's because Nichols is somewhere between being the worst finisher in the FL and the unluckiest striker in the FL, and the other three are fairly ineffective from what I've seen across the first ten or so weeks. That's not to say traditional wingers wouldn't work though and maybe we should look at finding a way to get a Haldane-like winger into our system going forward if the struggles continue but certainly in the interim, Tuesday, I wouldn't alter the system that finished the game against Oxford - just a few personnel tweaks.
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Post by Gasshole on Oct 22, 2018 3:43:34 GMT
Anyone who has followed football at all will know that teams can succeed and fail with. 1] inverted wingers 2] traditional wingers 3] one up front 4] two up front 5] three up front 6] a high press 7] only pressing in your own half 8] lots of width 9] narrow 10] long ball style 11] short passing style Surely we all know that you can win things or get relegated with all of the above? Agree, good teams who have lots of good players can beat any formation. These players constantly read the game and make small adjustments to adapt to the game that is unfolding before them.its all about understanding and countering what the oppo are doing well, identifying what weaknesses can be exploited on the run. A lot of matches are constantly changing and evolving as the teams try to nullify each other. I don’t think we have enough of this , so being a well drilled unit is our only chance of competing. Unfortunately we can’t buy a goal at the moment, but that is exactly what we need to do to stay up. Roll on January
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Post by William Wilson on Oct 22, 2018 6:34:58 GMT
Anyone who has followed football at all will know that teams can succeed and fail with. 1] inverted wingers 2] traditional wingers 3] one up front 4] two up front 5] three up front 6] a high press 7] only pressing in your own half 8] lots of width 9] narrow 10] long ball style 11] short passing style Surely we all know that you can win things or get relegated with all of the above? Jesus. With all those options, why do we find it so difficult to win?
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Post by socrates on Oct 22, 2018 6:38:52 GMT
Exactly, c'mon DC how difficult is this AND more entertaining. I sometimes wonder if managers give any thought about the number of fans that come and watch. Any other business would! I find it very exiting seeing wide players cutting in onto their stronger foot like billy bodin,ronan curtis and kyle bennett at our level as well as players like messi and hazard in top class football. So do i but if they do it every time from both wings it becomes very predictable and easy to play against. Especially if that team doesn’t have good natural attacking full backs. I’d rather see us play one inside forward and one winger. Like we did in the conference and league 2.
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Post by neilv93 on Oct 22, 2018 6:53:46 GMT
I find it very exiting seeing wide players cutting in onto their stronger foot like billy bodin,ronan curtis and kyle bennett at our level as well as players like messi and hazard in top class football. So do i but if they do it every time from both wings it becomes very predictable and easy to play against. Especially if that team doesn’t have good natural attacking full backs. I’d rather see us play one inside forward and one winger.Like we did in the conference and league 2. This I can agree with although, as mentioned above, I'm not sure we have any natural wingers. Bennett loves coming inside, Matthews isn't really a wide-man by trade so that leaves Rodman, but he spent a lot of last year coming in off the left so who knows. I think a recurring theme on this forum in the last few transfer windows has been calls for a natural winger so it's no reason this debate has cropped up again I suppose!
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