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Post by Gassy on Jan 27, 2020 14:25:48 GMT
Gassy, You talk as if you understand the system but you obviously don't. Remember firstly and which is most important- Lockyer had been with the club a very long time- longer than most. So he had obviously signed a fair few contracts. The system very much favours the Big Clubs who have money to burn and offer long contracts. You are very much blaming the club on contract nego9tiations but look at it the other way and lets look at Bennett and Nichols both who could have been signed with the Matty Taylor situation in mind but of co9urse people are looking at those as being ridiculous because now the club is held to ransom p0articularly by Bennett. They cannot win but get this into your mind- the club gave Tom Lockyer quite a few increased contracts and there is no way that they didn't try to extend his contract further but the player decided he was going to let his contract run down. Tom knew that his Welsh Squad presence would ensure that he could find a club without much trouble and I expect his agent as well would have said to him not to sign another contract. We are not the only club to lose out in this way and Gillingham and Tom Eaves is a fine example where they lost him for nothing. It is very easy for us to sit behind keyboards and criticise the club WITHOUT knowing the facts only the outcome. The people to blame in all this are the ones who bri8ng in rules that favour the big clubs all the time. No Steve, I understand it pretty well thank you. Are you denying the club weren't shocked when Brown and Lockyer decided to leave? I blame the club and/or DC on the poor contracts, what do you honestly think that Taylor, Bodin, Brown & Lockyer were all coincidences and just bad luck? Talk about rose tinted glasses! If you actually did some research on Eaves he told the Gillingham he wouldn't sign a contract in December, they were going to sell him, but decided not to because they were in a relegation fight and it was worth keeping him. We didn't even know about Lockyer until it was too late. Accrington sold their striker for £1.7m I believe, Peterborough nearly never let a top player go up a division for free. You evidence that it happens, doesn't make it ok Steve. Otherwise I'll just give you examples of Sanchez going for what £70m to Man Utd with 6 months left? So what Wimbledon lost Taylor for free, do you think they were happy about it?! I'm saying that it happens in football, but why not get better at it? If you want to sit there and say 'fair enough' every time we lose a player for 5p then please, continue to do so. I've said multiple times that we needed to improve, GC said it himself - or are you and eric wanting to believe that GC was wrong and actually everything is fine? I've also said that it looks like we've since improved on this. You talk about facts Steve, but you clearly don't know them! Look here, this is from Coughlan's mouth himself: "We should tie down our assets. I know that's easier said than done but we should look after our assets. "Because Tom has been a massive player for this football club, a hell of a skipper for me as well. I've been in dialogue with him for three-four months and I fully understand and respect what he wants to do and where he wants to go.
Sometimes you're powerless to prevent it because the player has made up his mind and I think in this case we may have been powerless because Tom wanted to, and he had this vision and determination, that he would get to the ripe old age of 24 and he would be able to walk on a free.
I don't think offering Tom would have diverted his thought process, I think he was strong-minded and strong-willed and he was going to go down these lines irrespective of what we offered him or what we were trying to do for him."
Read it here: www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/graham-coughlan-bristol-rovers-couldnt-2851845Take a read all, if we spoke to him about contract extensions 4 months before then it was already too late. The club didn't offer him a contract, unlike you're all saying they definitely did. As I've said 20 times, we should have spoken to Tom earlier in the process - EG, Before January. The club only spoke to him when we were powerless. So yes, we needed to improve in our handling of contracts. You want facts, go and read them!
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Post by Rod1883 on Jan 27, 2020 14:33:30 GMT
I'm not sure there was much we could have done about Lockyer imho. We might have got something for him in the last January window, but then we would have gone down last season. We kept him, stayed up and then another factor came into play. I'm convinced that there were absolutely no Championship level takers for Tom if a fee was involved. Charlton took a punt and I'm sure the no fee piece was a major factor. If Tom had gone last January, then I believe the best he could have hoped for then would have been another league 1 team. I have no issues with what Tom did - he gave us great service, helped keep us up, and moved on with dignity.
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Post by Gassy on Jan 27, 2020 14:44:23 GMT
I'm not sure there was much we could have done about Lockyer imho. We might have got something for him in the last January window, but then we would have gone down last season. We kept him, stayed up and then another factor came into play. I'm convinced that there were absolutely no Championship level takers for Tom if a fee was involved. Charlton took a punt and I'm sure the no fee piece was a major factor. If Tom had gone last January, then I believe the best he could have hoped for then would have been another league 1 team. I have no issues with what Tom did - he gave us great service, helped keep us up, and moved on with dignity. And this is the thing, if we'd had made the decision to keep him to save us then I'd say fair enough - good decision made and completely worth it. However, as per my post above it doesn't look like we did.
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Post by dragonfly on Jan 27, 2020 14:53:36 GMT
Last week of the window yeah, who will we see? Someone even half as good as Alan Clarke 1970's Leeds would do.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 15:00:42 GMT
Gassy, You talk as if you understand the system but you obviously don't. Remember firstly and which is most important- Lockyer had been with the club a very long time- longer than most. So he had obviously signed a fair few contracts. The system very much favours the Big Clubs who have money to burn and offer long contracts. You are very much blaming the club on contract nego9tiations but look at it the other way and lets look at Bennett and Nichols both who could have been signed with the Matty Taylor situation in mind but of co9urse people are looking at those as being ridiculous because now the club is held to ransom p0articularly by Bennett. They cannot win but get this into your mind- the club gave Tom Lockyer quite a few increased contracts and there is no way that they didn't try to extend his contract further but the player decided he was going to let his contract run down. Tom knew that his Welsh Squad presence would ensure that he could find a club without much trouble and I expect his agent as well would have said to him not to sign another contract. We are not the only club to lose out in this way and Gillingham and Tom Eaves is a fine example where they lost him for nothing. It is very easy for us to sit behind keyboards and criticise the club WITHOUT knowing the facts only the outcome. The people to blame in all this are the ones who bri8ng in rules that favour the big clubs all the time. No Steve, I understand it pretty well thank you. Are you denying the club weren't shocked when Brown and Lockyer decided to leave? I blame the club and/or DC on the poor contracts, what do you honestly think that Taylor, Bodin, Brown & Lockyer were all coincidences and just bad luck? Talk about rose tinted glasses! If you actually did some research on Eaves he told the Gillingham he wouldn't sign a contract in December, they were going to sell him, but decided not to because they were in a relegation fight and it was worth keeping him. We didn't even know about Lockyer until it was too late. Accrington sold their striker for £1.7m I believe, Peterborough nearly never let a top player go up a division for free. You evidence that it happens, doesn't make it ok Steve. Otherwise I'll just give you examples of Sanchez going for what £70m to Man Utd with 6 months left? So what Wimbledon lost Taylor for free, do you think they were happy about it?! I'm saying that it happens in football, but why not get better at it? If you want to sit there and say 'fair enough' every time we lose a player for 5p then please, continue to do so. I've said multiple times that we needed to improve, GC said it himself - or are you and eric wanting to believe that GC was wrong and actually everything is fine? I've also said that it looks like we've since improved on this. You talk about facts Steve, but you clearly don't know them! Look here, this is from Coughlan's mouth himself: "We should tie down our assets. I know that's easier said than done but we should look after our assets. "Because Tom has been a massive player for this football club, a hell of a skipper for me as well. I've been in dialogue with him for three-four months and I fully understand and respect what he wants to do and where he wants to go.
Sometimes you're powerless to prevent it because the player has made up his mind and I think in this case we may have been powerless because Tom wanted to, and he had this vision and determination, that he would get to the ripe old age of 24 and he would be able to walk on a free.
I don't think offering Tom would have diverted his thought process, I think he was strong-minded and strong-willed and he was going to go down these lines irrespective of what we offered him or what we were trying to do for him."
Read it here: www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/graham-coughlan-bristol-rovers-couldnt-2851845Take a read all, if we spoke to him about contract extensions 4 months before then it was already too late. The club didn't offer him a contract, unlike you're all saying they definitely did. As I've said 20 times, we should have spoken to Tom earlier in the process - EG, Before January. The club only spoke to him when we were powerless. So yes, we needed to improve in our handling of contracts. You want facts, go and read them! GC saying he’d been speaking to him for 3-4 months doesn’t mean the club didn’t offer anything in the previous year or two. In any event from GC’s words Tom was very clear and determined to follow the route he took so nothing we could have done. If I was in his shoes I’d have done exactly the same, football is a short career and you have to look after yourself.
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Post by Gassy on Jan 27, 2020 15:03:58 GMT
No Steve, I understand it pretty well thank you. Are you denying the club weren't shocked when Brown and Lockyer decided to leave? I blame the club and/or DC on the poor contracts, what do you honestly think that Taylor, Bodin, Brown & Lockyer were all coincidences and just bad luck? Talk about rose tinted glasses! If you actually did some research on Eaves he told the Gillingham he wouldn't sign a contract in December, they were going to sell him, but decided not to because they were in a relegation fight and it was worth keeping him. We didn't even know about Lockyer until it was too late. Accrington sold their striker for £1.7m I believe, Peterborough nearly never let a top player go up a division for free. You evidence that it happens, doesn't make it ok Steve. Otherwise I'll just give you examples of Sanchez going for what £70m to Man Utd with 6 months left? So what Wimbledon lost Taylor for free, do you think they were happy about it?! I'm saying that it happens in football, but why not get better at it? If you want to sit there and say 'fair enough' every time we lose a player for 5p then please, continue to do so. I've said multiple times that we needed to improve, GC said it himself - or are you and eric wanting to believe that GC was wrong and actually everything is fine? I've also said that it looks like we've since improved on this. You talk about facts Steve, but you clearly don't know them! Look here, this is from Coughlan's mouth himself: "We should tie down our assets. I know that's easier said than done but we should look after our assets. "Because Tom has been a massive player for this football club, a hell of a skipper for me as well. I've been in dialogue with him for three-four months and I fully understand and respect what he wants to do and where he wants to go.
Sometimes you're powerless to prevent it because the player has made up his mind and I think in this case we may have been powerless because Tom wanted to, and he had this vision and determination, that he would get to the ripe old age of 24 and he would be able to walk on a free.
I don't think offering Tom would have diverted his thought process, I think he was strong-minded and strong-willed and he was going to go down these lines irrespective of what we offered him or what we were trying to do for him."
Read it here: www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/graham-coughlan-bristol-rovers-couldnt-2851845Take a read all, if we spoke to him about contract extensions 4 months before then it was already too late. The club didn't offer him a contract, unlike you're all saying they definitely did. As I've said 20 times, we should have spoken to Tom earlier in the process - EG, Before January. The club only spoke to him when we were powerless. So yes, we needed to improve in our handling of contracts. You want facts, go and read them! GC saying he’d been speaking to him for 3-4 months doesn’t mean the club didn’t offer anything in the previous year or two. In any event from GC’s words Tom was very clear and determined to follow the route he took so nothing we could have done. If I was in his shoes I’d have done exactly the same, football is a short career and you have to look after yourself. He says in the 3rd line, that offering Tom wouldn't have diverted his thought process. We can assume from that, they didn't. Even if they did, it doesn't matter as it's too late. I'm not disagreeing that we could have convinced him to stay - he was set on leaving and fair enough, I'm saying we should have started the conversation earlier - that way we'd have been in the position to potentially sell Tom if we had wanted. If we couldn't sell him/it wasn't enough money, then fair enough. But let's at least give ourselves that chance, before realising when it's too late.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 23:08:45 GMT
Regarding contracts i think the consecutive promotions played a part in our woes. We went from a league where players are usually on 1 year deals and getting about £800pw to league one where 3 year deals and 3k per week was normal. I don't really understand how a manager/coaches who works with the same players every day can't spot the good from the bad, even I could do that when coaching kids, surely the likes of MT & BB warranted better contract offers and how did we let Bola leave w/o offering him a contract. Psoh & Oxford seem to make a killing on transfer so far the maximum we've managed recently is £750K for Harrison. Im not saying no mistakes were made but i think the double promotion was a mitigating factor. Billy got a 2 year deal after a good 2nd half of the season in league 2 and following a serious injury before he was at rovers. I reckon that was the sensible deal at the time although he turned out to be a fine player mostly in league one. I can still remember how most people liked the "keep em hungry" one year deals from the conference era. Now were back into the madness of long contracts,i mean we have just given barrett a 2 and a half year deal despite him being overweight and unfit.
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Post by axegas on Jan 28, 2020 9:21:07 GMT
I don't really understand how a manager/coaches who works with the same players every day can't spot the good from the bad, even I could do that when coaching kids, surely the likes of MT & BB warranted better contract offers and how did we let Bola leave w/o offering him a contract. Psoh & Oxford seem to make a killing on transfer so far the maximum we've managed recently is £750K for Harrison. Im not saying no mistakes were made but i think the double promotion was a mitigating factor. Billy got a 2 year deal after a good 2nd half of the season in league 2 and following a serious injury before he was at rovers. I reckon that was the sensible deal at the time although he turned out to be a fine player mostly in league one. I can still remember how most people liked the "keep em hungry" one year deals from the conference era. Now were back into the madness of long contracts,i mean we have just given barrett a 2 and a half year deal despite him being overweight and unfit. Losing Taylor was dreadful at the time and the board took heavy criticism for it but in essence their hands were tied. Taylor would have gone for nothing in the summer of 16 had a release clause not been inserted into his contract so whilst £300k might seem pitiful, it was a better scenario than him going 6 months previously for nothing even if the destination was our arch rivals. Getting £500k for Bodin was actually a decent bit of business considering he stubbornly refused time and time again to sign a new contract and only had 6 months left on the one he had. Again £750k for Harrison was a good bit of business, not many fans were against it at the time. Going further back, we've completed profitable sales of Agogo, Lambert, Hayles, Roberts etc so really the "we always roll over and let our players go for nothing" argument is largely a myth.
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Post by stevek192 on Jan 28, 2020 11:07:05 GMT
Gassy, I have read up on it actually and yes Eaves did say he wouldn't sign a contract in December but if you think about it Matty Taylor would only sign a year contract in his last summer and only if there was a clause with a minimum of 300,000 written in it. Same as Eaves then isn't it. Are you saying we should have offered Tom Lockyer an astronomical contract to persuade him to stay? We do not have an endless pit of money and the truth is that if a player wants to leave they will leave unless like Bennett they are on a ridiculous contract which seems to be what you are saying we should have offered Tom remembering also that he is not a striker who are worth their weight in gold. There is also the small thing of Agents who again work totally against the smaller clubs . I suggest you have a look at Bury FC and see where offering long term expensive contracts gets you to and perhaps you will realise that you win some and lose some. We probably have learned with JCH contract but if he really wants to leave he will go and not necessarily at the sort of price we really want but I do agree our owners must get better at it if they can afford it. This is not rose coloured glasses but common sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2020 11:16:16 GMT
Would anybody offer JCH a longer contract now?
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Post by wilmslowgas on Jan 28, 2020 12:00:01 GMT
Ideal scenario for both JCH and the club: he accepts better contract; he returns to form, regains fitness and shows his old commitment. He leaves in the summer to a bigger club with his head held high and value enhanced. Win win.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 15:36:39 GMT
Now going into the last two days of the window and I seriously hope we have a replacement for JCH lined up ...
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Post by warehamgas on Jan 29, 2020 15:54:03 GMT
Ideal scenario for both JCH and the club: he accepts better contract; he returns to form, regains fitness and shows his old commitment. He leaves in the summer to a bigger club with his head held high and value enhanced. Win win. Come on wilmslow, what’s the word “ideal” got to do with us! 😉 But yes you are right. We need to use the wingers to play crosses or central midfielders to thread balls through to him in the 18 yard box because given chances JCH will convert. The last two goals (?) he has scored from open play Bromley and last night have both been crosses from right hand side into the 6 yard box. Both crosses were from Ollie C I think. UTG!
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Post by Antonio Fargas on Jan 29, 2020 21:56:29 GMT
"I feel like this has been the final, missing piece of the jigsaw for us," said chairman Lee Power. So I guess that means Swindon won't be wanting KB. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51303980
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Post by stuart1974 on Jan 29, 2020 22:45:09 GMT
"I feel like this has been the final, missing piece of the jigsaw for us," said chairman Lee Power. So I guess that means Swindon won't be wanting KB. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51303980 What were the Gaschat figures? £4,500 pw with us and £1,500 at Swindon with an 18 month contract left to run? If it's anywhere approaching that then it is something in the region of £200,000+ he'll be passing on. Professional pride only goes so far. I guess that if it is headroom within the overall player play budget the we could look into some negotiated 'golden goodbye' but that would still be a massive payoff we can't afford. I guess he'll be with us until next January.
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Post by madgas on Jan 29, 2020 23:04:33 GMT
GC saying he’d been speaking to him for 3-4 months doesn’t mean the club didn’t offer anything in the previous year or two. In any event from GC’s words Tom was very clear and determined to follow the route he took so nothing we could have done. If I was in his shoes I’d have done exactly the same, football is a short career and you have to look after yourself. He says in the 3rd line, that offering Tom wouldn't have diverted his thought process. We can assume from that, they didn't. Even if they did, it doesn't matter as it's too late. I'm not disagreeing that we could have convinced him to stay - he was set on leaving and fair enough, I'm saying we should have started the conversation earlier - that way we'd have been in the position to potentially sell Tom if we had wanted. If we couldn't sell him/it wasn't enough money, then fair enough. But let's at least give ourselves that chance, before realising when it's too late. I dont want to. But I cant resist. Lockyer signed his year extention in Januray. 18 months before he left. The deal- was between him and the manager DC to give him one more year and one last push at promotion together... We wouldve given longer if the interest was there. I think the board have learnt- hence efforts to renegotiate JCHs contract 6 months in. But also- long term deals got wrong are a sticky issue. A few have been made. We appear on a new model now.
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Post by albaron on Jan 29, 2020 23:44:07 GMT
Now going into the last two days of the window and I seriously hope we have a replacement for JCH lined up ... With only Riley left ( i'm not counting TN ) I think we need 2 replacements.
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Post by daniel300380 on Jan 29, 2020 23:50:05 GMT
"I feel like this has been the final, missing piece of the jigsaw for us," said chairman Lee Power. So I guess that means Swindon won't be wanting KB. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51303980 What were the Gaschat figures? £4,500 pw with us and £1,500 at Swindon with an 18 month contract left to run? If it's anywhere approaching that then it is something in the region of £200,000+ he'll be passing on. Professional pride only goes so far. I guess that if it is headroom within the overall player play budget the we could look into some negotiated 'golden goodbye' but that would still be a massive payoff we can't afford. I guess he'll be with us until next January. If he's not part of the managers plans at all, then if a club is willing to pay £1500 towards his wages. That is still £1500 towards another player. Will still be costing us £3k for a player that would not even be with us. But still better than him sitting at home doing nothing. Already paid off Payne this season, which still counts towards the budget. Plus Nichols wages. That could pay for an extra few player's next season.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2020 0:58:20 GMT
Surely if they dont manage to get rid then TN and KB need to earn their considerable chunks of the wage budget.
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Post by kampucheagas on Jan 30, 2020 7:13:36 GMT
Final countdown!
Just a few more days of checking sadly to see if we've managed to tempt anyone to join us on loan
Scenes when we sell JCH for half his value, take on someone who hasn't played for 6 months and put Nichols and Bennett back in the squad for Saturday!
See you there!
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