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Post by Kingswood Polak on Feb 3, 2020 16:41:40 GMT
Wasn't Penny sacked after his 13 Games? We obviously had higher standards back in those days! Let’s not forget the players rebellion against him & because he told them they were unfit and needed to get that sorted. It was an awful time & I hope we never get that type of division between players and manager again
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Post by WeAreTheGas on Feb 3, 2020 17:01:09 GMT
My guess is the disparity between our first & second half performances under BG is more to do with the players’ lack of fitness to play the way Garner wants us to without the ball. It’s become clear - and was particularly evident in the first half v Coventry - that the plan is for us to be a pressing side that tries to win the ball back off the opposition ASAP. That’s all well and good, but it takes a far higher base level of fitness to play like that than it does to play the low block, fairly passive defensive game that we did under Coughlan. So IMO, the players come out flagging in the second half of games atm having run themselves into the ground without the ball in the first, and it all goes downhill from there. Of course, when we start to keep the ball better ourselves, as BG wants us to, then we won’t have to spend as much time chasing the opposition around in the first place. Perhaps it’s a bit naive of Garner to try and get us pressing before he’s had a chance to put the squad through his own pre-season, but I guess he probably wants to assess who’s up to playing that way and who isn’t ahead of a summer re-build. All reasonable but in my eyes part of the skill of a good manager is seeing the style that your players as a group can play in and setting up to deal with that. Agreed but that’s where Garner & Coughlan are chalk and cheese - Coughlan is a pragmatist who plays whatever way he has to in order to win, and Garner is a philosophy coach who has a particular vision for how he wants his sides to play & will coach and trade until he has a squad capable of successfully doing it. And the board knew that when appointing BG, so I’m not sure they honestly could have expected BG to have just picked up where GC left off and kept our form going through to the end of the season; it was never going to happen under Garner IMO. I just think that whether we like it or not, we’re currently at the start of a fairly major transition in our playing style & squad makeup ahead of next season, and there was always going to be some short-term pain for some (hopefully) long-term gain. Results need to improve, that’s obvious, but now our Play Off hopes have gone (realistically) and we’re in no real danger of relegation, I’d say that this is probably as good a time as any to start implementing the way we want to play from next season and beyond.
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Post by Gassy on Feb 3, 2020 17:14:23 GMT
I missed the Coventry game, so I can't comment too much on the specifics but this does sound reasonable. However, it wasn't the entire half though was it? Wasn't it only 30 minutes before Coventry decided to actually play and we were losing 2-1 at half time? I don’t think Coventry just decided not to play for the first 30 minutes, we didn’t allow them to play by pressing them high and not letting them build out from the back like they wanted to. Then they changed their shape slightly, started to play through our press better and got their first goal - which seemed to rock us and make us resort to some bad habits in possession. But I guess that can happen when you try and defend in a completely new way against one of the slickest passing sides in the division; having sat deep and counter attacked (successfully, of course) for the last 6 months. JML threw up on the pitch twice on Saturday - so that shows that some of our players are struggling with the intensity BG is trying to get them to play at. Cheers for the summary and it makes sense, but as G&E says above - a manager should adapt to his players more or at least go 50/50 until they're fit enough. If you can see that they're not fit enough, will be nackered & won't be able to do it, then why bloody do it? Another concern is the bolded part. Whilst it seems we took them by surprise, all they did was change formation and suddenly we're losing 2-1 from 2 shots I think? Ben obviously struggles to read the game because any competent manager would have seen (if fans can see it) that after the first goal Coventry changed things and are now on top, so we need to do something. Instead, a 2nd goal went and then at half time we were absolutely atrocious (according to everyone). This is frustratingly a theme with Ben as well, we need to be about 3 goals ahead at half time to be able to get a result because oppositions just work us out and we don't change and are too tired. It's all well & good setting the team up to start the game well, but you need to be able to play 90 minutes & read/adapt to how the game changes. Unfortunately I don't see Garner having any of those qualities at present. He needs help ASAP. Regarding your post above about not being relegation candidates, I agree but only to an extent. On paper we're picking up 4 points from 11 games. That's 0.36pts per game. We have 16 games left which would put us on 6 points which would see us on 44 points. I'm sure we'll get some wins in there, but in 5 games time we could see ourselves as genuine relegation candidates
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Post by WeAreTheGas on Feb 3, 2020 17:37:36 GMT
I don’t think Coventry just decided not to play for the first 30 minutes, we didn’t allow them to play by pressing them high and not letting them build out from the back like they wanted to. Then they changed their shape slightly, started to play through our press better and got their first goal - which seemed to rock us and make us resort to some bad habits in possession. But I guess that can happen when you try and defend in a completely new way against one of the slickest passing sides in the division; having sat deep and counter attacked (successfully, of course) for the last 6 months. JML threw up on the pitch twice on Saturday - so that shows that some of our players are struggling with the intensity BG is trying to get them to play at. Cheers for the summary and it makes sense, but as G&E says above - a manager should adapt to his players more or at least go 50/50 until they're fit enough. If you can see that they're not fit enough, will be nackered & won't be able to do it, then why bloody do it? Another concern is the bolded part. Whilst it seems we took them by surprise, all they did was change formation and suddenly we're losing 2-1 from 2 shots I think? Ben obviously struggles to read the game because any competent manager would have seen (if fans can see it) that after the first goal Coventry changed things and are now on top, so we need to do something. Instead, a 2nd goal went and then at half time we were absolutely atrocious (according to everyone). This is frustratingly a theme with Ben as well, we need to be about 3 goals ahead at half time to be able to get a result because oppositions just work us out and we don't change and are too tired. It's all well & good setting the team up to start the game well, but you need to be able to play 90 minutes & read/adapt to how the game changes. Unfortunately I don't see Garner having any of those qualities at present. He needs help ASAP. Regarding your post above about not being relegation candidates, I agree but only to an extent. On paper we're picking up 4 points from 11 games. That's 0.36pts per game. We have 16 games left which would put us on 6 points which would see us on 44 points. I'm sure we'll get some wins in there, but in 5 games time we could see ourselves as genuine relegation candidates Yeah, his apparent inability or reluctance to react in game to opposition changes does concern me slightly at this stage - although I’m sure it’s far easier to spot what the opposition’s done than to successfully do something about it midway through a half. I’ve just accepted that having appointed a rookie manager with no professional playing experience, we’re going to have to put up with some mistakes and an element of learning on the job in the first few months of his time here. Would definitely like to see an experienced head who knows the division a bit to come in & work alongside him.
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 3, 2020 18:05:14 GMT
All reasonable but in my eyes part of the skill of a good manager is seeing the style that your players as a group can play in and setting up to deal with that. Agreed but that’s where Garner & Coughlan are chalk and cheese - Coughlan is a pragmatist who plays whatever way he has to in order to win, and Garner is a philosophy coach who has a particular vision for how he wants his sides to play & will coach and trade until he has a squad capable of successfully doing it. And the board knew that when appointing BG, so I’m not sure they honestly could have expected BG to have just picked up where GC left off and kept our form going through to the end of the season; it was never going to happen under Garner IMO. I just think that whether we like it or not, we’re currently at the start of a fairly major transition in our playing style & squad makeup ahead of next season, and there was always going to be some short-term pain for some (hopefully) long-term gain. Results need to improve, that’s obvious, but now our Play Off hopes have gone (realistically) and we’re in no real danger of relegation, I’d say that this is probably as good a time as any to start implementing the way we want to play from next season and beyond. Recent history at Rovers suggests if we end a season on a poor run of form the same manager rarely starts a new season any better, given we're still likely to retain around 75% of the this season's squad and BG's only likely to have a limited transfer budget in the summer, I can't see history changing on that score. Added to that no Rovers manager has ever started this poorly and turned things around. The only way BG could have turned this around is by getting in some experienced players last month, a decent RB, a replacement for Lines and a No 10 who can actually score goals, or at least keep possession of the ball.
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Post by lpgas on Feb 3, 2020 20:24:09 GMT
Agreed but that’s where Garner & Coughlan are chalk and cheese - Coughlan is a pragmatist who plays whatever way he has to in order to win, and Garner is a philosophy coach who has a particular vision for how he wants his sides to play & will coach and trade until he has a squad capable of successfully doing it. And the board knew that when appointing BG, so I’m not sure they honestly could have expected BG to have just picked up where GC left off and kept our form going through to the end of the season; it was never going to happen under Garner IMO. I just think that whether we like it or not, we’re currently at the start of a fairly major transition in our playing style & squad makeup ahead of next season, and there was always going to be some short-term pain for some (hopefully) long-term gain. Results need to improve, that’s obvious, but now our Play Off hopes have gone (realistically) and we’re in no real danger of relegation, I’d say that this is probably as good a time as any to start implementing the way we want to play from next season and beyond. Recent history at Rovers suggests if we end a season on a poor run of form the same manager rarely starts a new season any better, given we're still likely to retain around 75% of the this season's squad and BG's only likely to have a limited transfer budget in the summer, I can't see history changing on that score. Added to that no Rovers manager has ever started this poorly and turned things around. The only way BG could have turned this around is by getting in some experienced players last month, a decent RB, a replacement for Lines and a No 10 who can actually score goals, or at least keep possession of the ball. I'm with you on this. When we needed some experience, we got 7 players with none.
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Post by lpgas on Feb 3, 2020 20:47:01 GMT
Totally agree with your post Xenongas I think he will be given the rest of the season and summer almost come what may. The ALQ’s seem to have made a significant change in recruitment that takes into account our financial plight. There was no way we could continue signing the likes of Payne, Bennett and Nichols on decent wages with no guarantee of success. This next season or two could be painful and we will no doubt lose some supporters along the way but we may come out of it as the sustainable club we were told was the aim. It’s obvious that there’s no new investor with their fantasy stadium on the horizon and I believe the ALQ’s see this as the clubs only hope for the future. there is no such thing as a sustainable club. Even Liverpool are heavily in debt
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Post by Hudson1883 on Feb 3, 2020 20:50:46 GMT
Just maybe some of the blame lays at players door, where did the fight and passion shown at lincoln and ipswich go to? where was the aggression in midfield yesterday and over the last month, to many pretty boys and not enough sinclairs, give garner the summer and see what happens in august, if we are still poor come september then bye bye, just my view. Some easily (or more conveniently) forgetting that BG stuck with the exact same side in his first 4/5 games that had propelled us to 4th in the division. As you say, the fight/drive was nowhere to be seen as soon as GC left. So yes, for me, a lot of the blame does lay at the door of the players. Some of them over the Christmas period certainly went down tools and gave up the ghost.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Feb 3, 2020 21:03:40 GMT
Just maybe some of the blame lays at players door, where did the fight and passion shown at lincoln and ipswich go to? where was the aggression in midfield yesterday and over the last month, to many pretty boys and not enough sinclairs, give garner the summer and see what happens in august, if we are still poor come september then bye bye, just my view. Some easily (or more conveniently) forgetting that BG stuck with the exact same side in his first 4/5 games that had propelled us to 4th in the division. As you say, the fight/drive was nowhere to be seen as soon as GC left. So yes, for me, a lot of the blame does lay at the door of the players. Some of them over the Christmas period certainly went down tools and gave up the ghost. Thing is that could easily be a motivational issue. There was no such problem whilst we were under a caretaker manager. I wonder how much BG May have rocked the boat. If we worked for an organisation that was doing well under the circumstances even if it was done in a not so pretty manner and a new manager came on to manage us, then told us everything we were doing was wrong, things needed to change and that we’d possibly be replaced by new members of staff who may know less than ourselves then morale and performance would probably take a massive hit - even if subconsciously. Footballers often have no affinity to the club they’re with these days as it rarely lasts beyond 2 or so years. You can’t blame them if this happens. Somewhat hypothetical but a possible circumstance. I had it once and for all my mind I was doing a great job and delivering great content but a new director thought what I was doing was too complex and in depth despite his predecessor telling all and sundry that my work was excellent. I tried and tried my best but I didn’t know my arms from my elbows as a result. He didn’t last long.
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Post by darkbluegas on Feb 3, 2020 22:16:06 GMT
Totally agree with your post Xenongas I think he will be given the rest of the season and summer almost come what may. The ALQ’s seem to have made a significant change in recruitment that takes into account our financial plight. There was no way we could continue signing the likes of Payne, Bennett and Nichols on decent wages with no guarantee of success. This next season or two could be painful and we will no doubt lose some supporters along the way but we may come out of it as the sustainable club we were told was the aim. It’s obvious that there’s no new investor with their fantasy stadium on the horizon and I believe the ALQ’s see this as the clubs only hope for the future. there is no such thing as a sustainable club. Even Liverpool are heavily in debt You better let Wael know
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Post by cj on Feb 4, 2020 12:34:03 GMT
I don't think BG would have been hired if we were bottom half at Christmas. The situation has allowed for a low risk (in terms of relegation) gamble with possibly a high payoff. He's not been hired as a firefighter he's been hired to build for the future, as painful as that is turning out to be in the short term. It would be silly to say this is our plan for the next 2 years then rip it up after 2 months. This situation has also meant that the new man who has been lauded for his coaching hasn't been able to coach for the first month of his job! Presiding over recovery sessions isn't helpful! On top of that a massively unfortunate and sad situation outside of football meaning he wasn't even here for some of those games. Have we had such a situation before? If not is it a valid comparison? Results have been crap and we desperately need that first win. Obviously it can't go on forever like this but I don't believe it will. Top post.
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Post by cj on Feb 4, 2020 12:49:51 GMT
I don't think BG would have been hired if we were bottom half at Christmas. The situation has allowed for a low risk (in terms of relegation) gamble with possibly a high payoff. He's not been hired as a firefighter he's been hired to build for the future, as painful as that is turning out to be in the short term. It would be silly to say this is our plan for the next 2 years then rip it up after 2 months. This situation has also meant that the new man who has been lauded for his coaching hasn't been able to coach for the first month of his job! Presiding over recovery sessions isn't helpful! On top of that a massively unfortunate and sad situation outside of football meaning he wasn't even here for some of those games.
Have we had such a situation before? If not is it a valid comparison? Results have been crap and we desperately need that first win. Obviously it can't go on forever like this but I don't believe it will. Which makes changing from GC's tactics all the more madness, if any of us went into a new job would we try and change the way it was running even if we had issues meaning we had to take time away from work? Even in the transfer window he doesn't seem to have dealt with the issue we can all see, our CM's are simply not good enough to play a Coventry type passing game. As you can see from my previous comments over many different threads, I am 100% behind BG and understand the need for patience as the rebuild will take time. However, I agree fully with you that moving away from GC's tactics so soon was madness. I am a firm believer that if its not broke, then don't try and fix it.
BUT when BG joined, he had a transfer window fast approaching and he knew along with the rest of us that we needed a lot of new players. He had 2 options...
1, stick with GC's tactics - meaning any new signing in that window would need to fit GC's tactics and then come the summer when BG begins to implement his own way, those new signings would become a waste of funds as will no longer fit into BG's way of thinking with his new tactics. 2, start his own way - meaning start rebuilding now so we don't waste funds and waste that transfer window. Also he would have had targets in mind that suits him and he would run the risk of missing out on them if he had waited until the summer. So if he is bringing in players for his new way, he needs to change the tactics to match his new way.
If he had stuck with GC's tactics and spent money in the window to keep that way going, he would be slated in the summer for then wasting those funds. No win situation really for him. At least this way, he got the targets he wanted, he can rebuild now and be in a better position come the start of next season.
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Post by cj on Feb 4, 2020 12:50:37 GMT
Come on, how many games did he have and how many points did he need? This has been debated to death already. Don't let hero worship mist up your glasses, lol I’m the last person to hero worship DC , but he was left in an awful situation And BG joined in an awful situation. Yet why is that not being understood?
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Post by cj on Feb 4, 2020 12:51:20 GMT
In a years time, I really hope there will be an awful lot of humble pie eating going on. Total madness some of the comments that have been mentioned about BG's future over different threads.
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Post by Congas on Feb 4, 2020 13:13:35 GMT
Like I said, give him to Christmas
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 4, 2020 13:19:32 GMT
I’m the last person to hero worship DC , but he was left in an awful situation And BG joined in an awful situation. Yet why is that not being understood? One home win over Wimbledon from going 2nd is hardly an awful situation!! One out field goal in 11 games is though!
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Post by cj on Feb 4, 2020 13:37:33 GMT
And BG joined in an awful situation. Yet why is that not being understood? One home win over Wimbledon from going 2nd is hardly an awful situation!! One out field goal in 11 games is though! I mean no offence here, surely you are not that blinkered? You're just looking at the results and not the circumstances behind them.
How about being the 4th manager in 4 games? Not ideal is it.
How about the mounting injury list? Not ideal again.
How about only having a small squad to choose from - who are very tired due to playing so many games in a short period of time? Again not ideal. How about games coming thick and fast and unable to take proper training sessions? Is that not ideal? How about trying his best under the above circumstances and have on his mind what was going on at home, before going on leave?
Do you think all of that above is not an awful situation for any new manager at any new club? No wonder that hasn't been wins or goals.
May sound like just excuses to you or others, but they are actually facts of what has happened to BG.
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 4, 2020 15:28:13 GMT
One home win over Wimbledon from going 2nd is hardly an awful situation!! One out field goal in 11 games is though! I mean no offence here, surely you are not that blinkered? You're just looking at the results and not the circumstances behind them.
How about being the 4th manager in 4 games? Not ideal is it.
How about the mounting injury list? Not ideal again.
How about only having a small squad to choose from - who are very tired due to playing so many games in a short period of time? Again not ideal. How about games coming thick and fast and unable to take proper training sessions? Is that not ideal? How about trying his best under the above circumstances and have on his mind what was going on at home, before going on leave?
Do you think all of that above is not an awful situation for any new manager at any new club? No wonder that hasn't been wins or goals.
May sound like just excuses to you or others, but they are actually facts of what has happened to BG.
So come Saturday there will be no excuses left if we lose? As BG will have a virtually full squad to choose from, a full weeks training etc?
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Post by aghast on Feb 4, 2020 16:56:09 GMT
One home win over Wimbledon from going 2nd is hardly an awful situation!! One out field goal in 11 games is though! I mean no offence here, surely you are not that blinkered? You're just looking at the results and not the circumstances behind them.
How about being the 4th manager in 4 games? Not ideal is it.
How about the mounting injury list? Not ideal again.
How about only having a small squad to choose from - who are very tired due to playing so many games in a short period of time? Again not ideal. How about games coming thick and fast and unable to take proper training sessions? Is that not ideal? How about trying his best under the above circumstances and have on his mind what was going on at home, before going on leave?
Do you think all of that above is not an awful situation for any new manager at any new club? No wonder that hasn't been wins or goals.
May sound like just excuses to you or others, but they are actually facts of what has happened to BG.
Most of those reasons applied equally to Coughlan, but he seemed to muddle through and get us to 4th place. I'm not anti-Garner, but some people seem determined to dismiss this truly shocking run and defend anything. I don't really understand why. He's had a terrible start. Really. However you look at it. Let's see how it's looking at the end of the season. Much better, I hope. It can't get worse, after all. Best of luck to him.
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 4, 2020 19:32:04 GMT
I mean no offence here, surely you are not that blinkered? You're just looking at the results and not the circumstances behind them.
How about being the 4th manager in 4 games? Not ideal is it.
How about the mounting injury list? Not ideal again.
How about only having a small squad to choose from - who are very tired due to playing so many games in a short period of time? Again not ideal. How about games coming thick and fast and unable to take proper training sessions? Is that not ideal? How about trying his best under the above circumstances and have on his mind what was going on at home, before going on leave?
Do you think all of that above is not an awful situation for any new manager at any new club? No wonder that hasn't been wins or goals.
May sound like just excuses to you or others, but they are actually facts of what has happened to BG.
Most of those reasons applied equally to Coughlan, but he seemed to muddle through and get us to 4th place. I'm not anti-Garner, but some people seem determined to dismiss this truly shocking run and defend anything. I don't really understand why. He's had a terrible start. Really. However you look at it. Let's see how it's looking at the end of the season. Much better, I hope. It can't get worse, after all. Best of luck to him. Can you honestly see him still being here at the end of the season if he doesn't start picking up the odd win sooner or later? Don't forget next season's season tickets go on sale in March and I can see there being a rush for them if by then we're heading for a 20 match winless run.
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