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Post by LJG on Nov 25, 2014 16:00:36 GMT
LJG, I agree with you it would be good but this is 2014 not 1970. Reserve team football for most teams is now right out of their price range and as for Academy everything has been set up to favour the Premiership and Championship so the chan ces of the real aces going through the Academy and playing for their home club is reduced drastically. This has been evidenced by us already with the loss of Mehew, two keepers and Alefe Santos. The throwing the cash at it is all part of trying to get success or trying to stop failure. If you recall last season we did not throw cash at it and look what happened. For the first time in years we could be in a reasonable position come the New Year.6th in the Conference? How very reasonable. As to your other points - isn't it so that we were a championship level side not that long ago (in relative terms)? Isn't that the entire point of what I've been saying? We were there with the assets to be one of those now who could have those luxuries. Even if you do say "That was 15 - 20 yrs ago". We were top half of Lg 1 in the last five years. I'm sorry I don't think you can say our history means nothing then say reserve football is for those who are in the position in which we used to be. And even if we couldn't have those luxuries; some small part of such a business model should be kept on so that as we grow it can be built upon. Other smaller clubs than us are nowhere near as far in the sh1t as we are.
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Post by stevek192 on Nov 25, 2014 16:04:34 GMT
Big Lock, Southway, Keary, Goddard, Harding- Where are these players playing now? I understand the point you are making but the fact is none of those players were good enough. You certainly cannot criticise John Ward for giving youngsters a chance- his problem was he played too many of them. IMO Harding should have been released a year earlier and probably the same with the injury prone Goddard. I think that DC did a good job of pruning out the injury prone players and to be honest I think we have the best of our youngsters in Clarke and Lockyer. I can also understand why he is being very careful in the development of Jamie Lucas as if he wasn't an instant success he would be crucified by the fans.
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Post by LJG on Nov 25, 2014 16:10:33 GMT
Big Lock, Southway, Keary, Goddard, Harding- Where are these players playing now? I understand the point you are making but the fact is none of those players were good enough. You certainly cannot criticise John Ward for giving youngsters a chance- his problem was he played too many of them. IMO Harding should have been released a year earlier and probably the same with the injury prone Goddard. I think that DC did a good job of pruning out the injury prone players and to be honest I think we have the best of our youngsters in Clarke and Lockyer. I can also understand why he is being very careful in the development of Jamie Lucas as if he wasn't an instant success he would be crucified by the fans. So careful in his development he played him in crucial relegation scrap games having just come back from a broken foot.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 16:30:08 GMT
It would be nice if we were a premiership club playing in a state of the art stadium with an academy pulling in talent from far and wide, alas we are not. However it would not hurt our cause if we were promoted this season. I'm not really sure what your point is. You don't seem to really be addressing any of the points made in this thread either by me or anyone else. I am a supporter that is what I do I can't address the problems facing this club and I very much doubt that you can. My point is that droning on about what "you think" is wrong with the club is not helping the present situation.
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Post by LJG on Nov 25, 2014 16:39:41 GMT
I'm not really sure what your point is. You don't seem to really be addressing any of the points made in this thread either by me or anyone else. I am a supporter that is what I do I can't address the problems facing this club and I very much doubt that you can. My point is that droning on about what "you think" is wrong with the club is not helping the present situation. Ohhh, you were deliberately not addressing any of the points raised in the thread; a sort of nihilistic approach to football forums. Like it. Never mind the details! Let's get behind the lads on the pitch! ... Hang on ... where have I heard that before?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 16:41:49 GMT
I'm not really sure what your point is. You don't seem to really be addressing any of the points made in this thread either by me or anyone else. I am a supporter that is what I do I can't address the problems facing this club and I very much doubt that you can. My point is that droning on about what "you think" is wrong with the club is not helping the present situation. With the utmost respect, burying our heads in the sand will not help us either, we require balance - Support and questioning. Without both we will not put right our past mistakes. Questioning and criticism does not have to be scathing it can be done with positivity and respect while still maintaining your support level.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 16:45:32 GMT
You can be as patronising as you want as I see it the OP was saying forget the past and get behind the team. I am not the one who is off message
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 16:46:15 GMT
In my opinion this is a little bit, complete and utter nonsense. Our history doesn't give us a divine right to anything, correct - no one has any divine right to anything. However, what our history has given us are a series of assets which, if they hadn't been f**ked up a wall, would mean we shouldn't be where we are. Our former successes have gifted us the following: - a larger fanbase than most at this level, the level above and the level above that; for clarity - that means higher income via gate receipts, merchandise and other revenues (50/50, programs, pasties, pints, SC, FFSC etc) - revenues from the sale of quality players - A shop window for our club to attract players, managers, backroom staff (which apparently we haven't been able to do for the last four years) - A shop window to attract investment - PRIZE MONEY and TV revenues; Play off winners, second place in JPT, Quarter finals of FA Cup. I just couldn't disagree more with the "We are where we are" attitude. It is symptomatic of the lazy, unimaginative, Americanised, blame free, culture that pervades our wider society. It's a consequenceless shrug of the shoulders and it is complete and utter bulls**t. If in three years time I was a shambolic waster with no job who had given up all my qualifications and ignored my work with just the hope of one dodgy del-boy sale of my only asset to a local supermarket to help me survive I don't think that when my parents, my family, my former tutors and teachers and friends say "What happened? We gave you everything, why didn't you build on the success we helped you to have instead of throwing everything away?" that my response would not be "Hey, I am where I am". The first step toward recovery is to admit you have a problem. All valid points but kicking and screaming about it will literally never get us back in the league. Ever. We proved that with the Wycombe fiasco. May as well just get behind the team at this point.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 16:51:36 GMT
I hate Football: Lord Justice has made valid points, he has put them across very well. The "lets just get behind 'em" cant be wheeled out as the counter argument all the time. That is patronising in its own way too. There's nothing wrong with him putting across his view.
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Post by LJG on Nov 25, 2014 16:55:10 GMT
In my opinion this is a little bit, complete and utter nonsense. Our history doesn't give us a divine right to anything, correct - no one has any divine right to anything. However, what our history has given us are a series of assets which, if they hadn't been f**ked up a wall, would mean we shouldn't be where we are. Our former successes have gifted us the following: - a larger fanbase than most at this level, the level above and the level above that; for clarity - that means higher income via gate receipts, merchandise and other revenues (50/50, programs, pasties, pints, SC, FFSC etc) - revenues from the sale of quality players - A shop window for our club to attract players, managers, backroom staff (which apparently we haven't been able to do for the last four years) - A shop window to attract investment - PRIZE MONEY and TV revenues; Play off winners, second place in JPT, Quarter finals of FA Cup. I just couldn't disagree more with the "We are where we are" attitude. It is symptomatic of the lazy, unimaginative, Americanised, blame free, culture that pervades our wider society. It's a consequenceless shrug of the shoulders and it is complete and utter bulls**t. If in three years time I was a shambolic waster with no job who had given up all my qualifications and ignored my work with just the hope of one dodgy del-boy sale of my only asset to a local supermarket to help me survive I don't think that when my parents, my family, my former tutors and teachers and friends say "What happened? We gave you everything, why didn't you build on the success we helped you to have instead of throwing everything away?" that my response would not be "Hey, I am where I am". The first step toward recovery is to admit you have a problem. All valid points but kicking and screaming about it will literally never get us back in the league. Ever. We proved that with the Wycombe fiasco. May as well just get behind the team at this point. But as I said above; isn't that what we hear at every turn? When does the "getting behind the team" point run out when we're allowed to say "Hang on .. this is f**ked! Can't we sort it out?"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 16:58:05 GMT
I once foolishly hammered in the base for a subbuteo goal before removing the posts....
it was a disaster, never let me run a football club....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 17:03:16 GMT
I am a supporter that is what I do I can't address the problems facing this club and I very much doubt that you can. My point is that droning on about what "you think" is wrong with the club is not helping the present situation. With the utmost respect, burying our heads in the sand will not help us either, we require balance - Support and questioning. Without both we will not put right our past mistakes. Questioning and criticism does not have to be scathing it can be done with positivity and respect while still maintaining your support level. Jock I am not burying anything I could write a book about what I think is wrong how it went wrong and when it started to go wrong. I have been watching this lot since 1967 and it started going wrong a long time before then. I just don't think this thread is the right one to have that debate. I agree with the OP's sentiment
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Post by LJG on Nov 25, 2014 17:03:42 GMT
You can be as patronising as you want as I see it the OP was saying forget the past and get behind the team. I am not the one who is off message And I constructively addressed what he had said and stated why I disagreed. You've replied to my post saying 1. We're in the Conference and 2. You're a supporter. While both those things are true I don't quite follow what they had to do with any of the discussion that was going on.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 17:08:59 GMT
With the utmost respect, burying our heads in the sand will not help us either, we require balance - Support and questioning. Without both we will not put right our past mistakes. Questioning and criticism does not have to be scathing it can be done with positivity and respect while still maintaining your support level. Jock I am not burying anything I could write a book about what I think is wrong how it went wrong and when it started to go wrong. I have been watching this lot since 1967 and it started going wrong a long time before then. I just don't think this thread is the right one to have that debate. I agree with the OP's sentiment You'll need to have word with the MODs then, cause in a roundabout way you are saying is that only posts agreeing with the OP are appreciated in the thread, Which kind of defeats the object of the forum.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 17:16:48 GMT
Jock I am not burying anything I could write a book about what I think is wrong how it went wrong and when it started to go wrong. I have been watching this lot since 1967 and it started going wrong a long time before then. I just don't think this thread is the right one to have that debate. I agree with the OP's sentiment You'll need to have word with the MODs then, cause in a roundabout way you are saying is that only posts agreeing with the OP are appreciated in the thread, Which kind of defeats the object of the forum. I have not said that at all, I am merely stating an oppinion which is the object of the forum. Have a word with the mod's if you wish, better still have word with yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 17:18:26 GMT
I am a supporter that is what I do I can't address the problems facing this club and I very much doubt that you can. My point is that droning on about what "you think" is wrong with the club is not helping the present situation. With the utmost respect, burying our heads in the sand will not help us either, we require balance - Support and questioning. Without both we will not put right our past mistakes. Questioning and criticism does not have to be scathing it can be done with positivity and respect while still maintaining your support level. 100% bang on the money.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 17:24:40 GMT
I think this a great debate tbh.
I also think SteveK and LJG are both right and completely agree with Big Jock.
SteveK made a great case, LJG has countered with well thought out responses and others have taken forward both points very well.
This thread is what all serious threads should be about.
I don't think anyone is saying they are 100% correct, its just opinion.
It's a pleasure to read tbh.
Thank you guys.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 17:26:26 GMT
We are where we are. History means nothing whatsoever and the quicker some fans realise this the better. History is what it is..it is what's written in Books.it's the past,it's yesterday and more importantly it's GONE. We are a Conference team now, in the Conference, no more no less. We have no divine right to win games here and for anyone to say we should be romping this League then in all honesty they are talking out of their rear end. We are here for a reason and that reason is because in the last 5 years at least we have not been good enough whichever division we have been in and last season we were not good enough to retain our League status. People can say what they want but if you are relegated from one division it does NOT mean that you will be the best team in the division below as was proven when we were relegated from League 1. In the same way that teams who win a league generally have a good first 4 months in the division above due to thye momentum of success so teams on the downward spiral struggle to turn it around. DC has managed so far to turn around that downward spiral, he has done that on a budget which is probably 100% lower than the budget which Trollope had 5 years ago. Its Ok saying we have one of the largest budgets every year but people seem to forget that we have been moving down leagues and I am sure our budget this season would be equivalent to the lower teams in League 2. i was not a DC fan and have always said that we should have appointed a Manager like Martin Allen at least 2 months before Clarke took over but that again is History and totally irrelevant now. I have moved on to the PRESENT and DC has proved himself this season IMO and deserves the right to be our Manager for the whole season. We are in a good position in this League at this time. Every point is a point nearer the target which must be to regain our league status. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither is a Football team. It takes time,patience and a great deal of luck WHATEVER division you are in. It is clearly visible that many do not have the Patience needed and this has probably been a big part of our decline. To call for a Managers head when we sit 2 points off second place is absolutely ridiculous. if we were in the bottom 4 I could understand it. I stand on the terraces today proud to be a Gashead watching a team of players who each give 100% to the cause and it is a few years since I could say that together with a Manager who calls it as it is. Yes I am hurting from the relegation but that is history. To regain our League status this season will be a tremendous achievement and I believe that DC CAN achieve this. That does not mean he will but he has as much chance as anyone else but to achieve it he need everyone to get behind him. we are supposed to be the 12th man not the Hangman. Swallow your pride ,forget what has been and create a new history, be part of it and get off your asses and get down the Mem tonight and every home game.Instead of moaning behind a keyboard about things you haven't seen do your part and get behind each and every player and the Manager. Do that and you can say you played your part in any success we have because the easiest thing to do is sit back and criticise the failures from behind a keyboard. This is not intended as a criticism of those who due to health, wealth or situation cannot attend but to those who sit at home moaning,criticising and come out with any excuse whatsoever to not attend. UTG How can a budget be 100% lower ? :-) We are where we are because the club was badly managed by the board, JW and DC. No we have No right to walk it but for me we have one of the best squads (on paper) and we should be promoted based on that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 17:28:37 GMT
I guess I can see both sides here. Yes woop dee do being in the conference playoffs isn't much to shout about in the wider scheme of things. That said, it is a good place to be for us right now. We cant win league 1 or league 2 this year we can only beat what is in front of us.
The rot has stopped at least. Progress is progress after all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 17:31:33 GMT
We are where we are. History means nothing whatsoever and the quicker some fans realise this the better. History is what it is..it is what's written in Books.it's the past,it's yesterday and more importantly it's GONE. We are a Conference team now, in the Conference, no more no less. We have no divine right to win games here and for anyone to say we should be romping this League then in all honesty they are talking out of their rear end. We are here for a reason and that reason is because in the last 5 years at least we have not been good enough whichever division we have been in and last season we were not good enough to retain our League status. People can say what they want but if you are relegated from one division it does NOT mean that you will be the best team in the division below as was proven when we were relegated from League 1. In the same way that teams who win a league generally have a good first 4 months in the division above due to thye momentum of success so teams on the downward spiral struggle to turn it around. DC has managed so far to turn around that downward spiral, he has done that on a budget which is probably 100% lower than the budget which Trollope had 5 years ago. Its Ok saying we have one of the largest budgets every year but people seem to forget that we have been moving down leagues and I am sure our budget this season would be equivalent to the lower teams in League 2. i was not a DC fan and have always said that we should have appointed a Manager like Martin Allen at least 2 months before Clarke took over but that again is History and totally irrelevant now. I have moved on to the PRESENT and DC has proved himself this season IMO and deserves the right to be our Manager for the whole season. We are in a good position in this League at this time. Every point is a point nearer the target which must be to regain our league status. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither is a Football team. It takes time,patience and a great deal of luck WHATEVER division you are in. It is clearly visible that many do not have the Patience needed and this has probably been a big part of our decline. To call for a Managers head when we sit 2 points off second place is absolutely ridiculous. if we were in the bottom 4 I could understand it. I stand on the terraces today proud to be a Gashead watching a team of players who each give 100% to the cause and it is a few years since I could say that together with a Manager who calls it as it is. Yes I am hurting from the relegation but that is history. To regain our League status this season will be a tremendous achievement and I believe that DC CAN achieve this. That does not mean he will but he has as much chance as anyone else but to achieve it he need everyone to get behind him. we are supposed to be the 12th man not the Hangman. Swallow your pride ,forget what has been and create a new history, be part of it and get off your asses and get down the Mem tonight and every home game.Instead of moaning behind a keyboard about things you haven't seen do your part and get behind each and every player and the Manager. Do that and you can say you played your part in any success we have because the easiest thing to do is sit back and criticise the failures from behind a keyboard. This is not intended as a criticism of those who due to health, wealth or situation cannot attend but to those who sit at home moaning,criticising and come out with any excuse whatsoever to not attend. UTG How can a budget be 100% lower ? :-) We are where we are because the club was badly managed by the board, JW and DC. No we have No right to walk it but for me we have one of the best squads (on paper) and we should be promoted based on that. Lol, 100% lower would be a budget of zero! I think he meant its been cut by 50% at least 2 times over and its a fair point. We have a pretty good squad, but DC has had to cut the squad down because his budget is around half of that available last year. I agree that we should be pushing at the door, but a win tonight (please) and win our game in hand and we won't be far off.
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