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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 17:34:07 GMT
You'll need to have word with the MODs then, cause in a roundabout way you are saying is that only posts agreeing with the OP are appreciated in the thread, Which kind of defeats the object of the forum. I have not said that at all, I am merely stating an oppinion which is the object of the forum. Have a word with the mod's if you wish, better still have word with yourself. I was debating respectfully. You have made it personal. On which note i'll leave you to it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 17:38:58 GMT
Numerically the squads ok now, my main criticism of post relegation DC was how long it took to get this team together as well as finding his prefered tactics and style of play. May be a bit harsh of me as we dont know how much of a role Toni the Tills broken calculator played in it.
In my eyes he has now built a very good squad comparatively for this level so fair play to him for that as it is a good achievement as a relative novice and a massive achievement based on the fact he has no scouts at all and has done it all himself. The proof in the pudding for him as a manager from here on in is can he get his team winning football matches consistantly ?? If he does the past can be forgotten and he can build a good career for himself.
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Post by phillistine on Nov 25, 2014 17:39:12 GMT
In my opinion this is a little bit, complete and utter nonsense. Our history doesn't give us a divine right to anything, correct - no one has any divine right to anything. However, what our history has given us are a series of assets which, if they hadn't been f**ked up a wall, would mean we shouldn't be where we are. Our former successes have gifted us the following: - a larger fanbase than most at this level, the level above and the level above that; for clarity - that means higher income via gate receipts, merchandise and other revenues (50/50, programs, pasties, pints, SC, FFSC etc) - revenues from the sale of quality players - A shop window for our club to attract players, managers, backroom staff (which apparently we haven't been able to do for the last four years) - A shop window to attract investment - PRIZE MONEY and TV revenues; Play off winners, second place in JPT, Quarter finals of FA Cup. I just couldn't disagree more with the "We are where we are" attitude. It is symptomatic of the lazy, unimaginative, Americanised, blame free, culture that pervades our wider society. It's a consequenceless shrug of the shoulders and it is complete and utter bulls**t. If in three years time I was a shambolic waster with no job who had given up all my qualifications and ignored my work with just the hope of one dodgy del-boy sale of my only asset to a local supermarket to help me survive I don't think that when my parents, my family, my former tutors and teachers and friends say "What happened? We gave you everything, why didn't you build on the success we helped you to have instead of throwing everything away?" that my response would not be "Hey, I am where I am". The first step toward recovery is to admit you have a problem. You have lost me here - what exactly are you saying ? You talk about " our former successes" - do you really think that our history is littered with successes? You mention the odd day here and there but the reality is that people do not support Rovers because of past successes. We have always had to sell our better players to make ends meet and yes we have a good fanbase but that is because we can draw from a city the size of Bristol not because we have been successful . Just think what our fan base might have been had we actually won anything of consequence. "The first step towards recovery is to admit you have a problem " - I genuinely dont understand your comment here. We have lost our place in the league , we have a completely new team and the past year's accounts show us to be trading at a loss . Everyone from the chairman down has admitted that we have problems - what will it take for people to accept that nothing positive comes out of continually asking people to admit past mistakes ? No-one is asking anyone to forget the past and yes we must learn lessons from the mistakes made - but I agree with the main point of this thread that we have to stop living in the past and accept where we are and start to reclimb the ladder a tread at a time.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 18:02:16 GMT
I have not said that at all, I am merely stating an oppinion which is the object of the forum. Have a word with the mod's if you wish, better still have word with yourself. I was debating respectfully. You have made it personal. On which note i'll leave you to it. Jock I am sorry you took that as an insult it certainly was not meant as such. it is just a turn of phrase.
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Post by LJG on Nov 25, 2014 18:06:09 GMT
In my opinion this is a little bit, complete and utter nonsense. Our history doesn't give us a divine right to anything, correct - no one has any divine right to anything. However, what our history has given us are a series of assets which, if they hadn't been f**ked up a wall, would mean we shouldn't be where we are. Our former successes have gifted us the following: - a larger fanbase than most at this level, the level above and the level above that; for clarity - that means higher income via gate receipts, merchandise and other revenues (50/50, programs, pasties, pints, SC, FFSC etc) - revenues from the sale of quality players - A shop window for our club to attract players, managers, backroom staff (which apparently we haven't been able to do for the last four years) - A shop window to attract investment - PRIZE MONEY and TV revenues; Play off winners, second place in JPT, Quarter finals of FA Cup. I just couldn't disagree more with the "We are where we are" attitude. It is symptomatic of the lazy, unimaginative, Americanised, blame free, culture that pervades our wider society. It's a consequenceless shrug of the shoulders and it is complete and utter bulls**t. If in three years time I was a shambolic waster with no job who had given up all my qualifications and ignored my work with just the hope of one dodgy del-boy sale of my only asset to a local supermarket to help me survive I don't think that when my parents, my family, my former tutors and teachers and friends say "What happened? We gave you everything, why didn't you build on the success we helped you to have instead of throwing everything away?" that my response would not be "Hey, I am where I am". The first step toward recovery is to admit you have a problem. You have lost me here - what exactly are you saying ? You talk about " our former successes" - do you really think that our history is littered with successes? You mention the odd day here and there but the reality is that people do not support Rovers because of past successes. We have always had to sell our better players to make ends meet and yes we have a good fanbase but that is because we can draw from a city the size of Bristol not because we have been successful . Just think what our fan base might have been had we actually won anything of consequence. "The first step towards recovery is to admit you have a problem " - I genuinely dont understand your comment here. We have lost our place in the league , we have a completely new team and the past year's accounts show us to be trading at a loss . Everyone from the chairman down has admitted that we have problems - what will it take for people to accept that nothing positive comes out of continually asking people to admit past mistakes ? No-one is asking anyone to forget the past and yes we must learn lessons from the mistakes made - but I agree with the main point of this thread that we have to stop living in the past and accept where we are and start to reclimb the ladder a tread at a time. In relative terms I think you can count being a moderately consistent second tier side as success. We have had stadium finals, good cup runs, big cup draws and some really entertaining players. For an outfit of our size I think we can count those as success enough for now. The posts I've made later go on to address what you take issue with (where I talk about the reserve team etc). Nothing positive comes out of continually asking people to admit past mistakes - I agree but there's a difference between "We made a mistake! Sorry, lads." and actually addressing issues. One is a PR exercise, one benefits the club.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 18:09:47 GMT
All valid points but kicking and screaming about it will literally never get us back in the league. Ever. We proved that with the Wycombe fiasco. May as well just get behind the team at this point. But as I said above; isn't that what we hear at every turn? When does the "getting behind the team" point run out when we're allowed to say "Hang on .. this is f**ked! Can't we sort it out?" I'm genuinely interested in this so please don't think I'm jumping down your throat. What is it exactly that we need to change and how? Don't get me wrong, I think we all agree many things have been mishandled over the years but what exactly are you referring to? I agree we've spunked our wage bill on players that turned out to be crap over the years but most of them on paper seemed like good signings, at best the club got very unlucky at worst the philosophy of buying experienced pros was wrong because they were past it/treated us as a retirement home. DC has pretty much fixed this now by getting in young, hungry kids from this level. If you're referring to the UWE, I think blaming Higgs entirely is pretty unfair to be honest, Sainsburys and TRASH have made this extremely difficult and the fact that Sainsburys haven't simply been able to walk away suggests that he must have done something right with the contracts. What if these rumours of a positive announcement soon turn out to be true? Will you be less upset about everything else? I get the feeling you're one of the older chaps who see being at this level as an unbearable indignity and to be fair I can't know how you feel because I've only ever known us as a crap side but I don't see how anything other than supporting the team is going to get us back up.
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Post by dragonfly on Nov 25, 2014 19:38:22 GMT
There are no doubt many reasons for our demise, some of which you would need to be from within the Club to know about. However it seems a major factor was the vetting of Players, Staff and Managers prior to signing. This is an area that DC has addressed and credit to him for he has recruited the right type of Players. DC could well become a real asset and I've a feeling that we won't need to appoint a new Manager for a very long time.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 22:53:05 GMT
I was debating respectfully. You have made it personal. On which note i'll leave you to it. Jock I am sorry you took that as an insult it certainly was not meant as such. it is just a turn of phrase. Refreshing and appreciated. Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 0:20:52 GMT
our history since 2000 has been very poor even compared to our very average history before that but i go to games to support the team and really like the honesty and ability[for this level] of this team so im encouraged and enjoying watching them. the board have clearly failed badly in recent times but nobody seems to have any credible way of replacing them with better so until new investment etc arrives we have to hope they run the club better.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 0:32:31 GMT
We have a problem we are not in the football league, thats that sorted then now whats the next step? I'm afraid that's a symptom rather than the problem. When the reserve squad was scrapped back in 07/08(?) as a costs saving exercise I said it would cause us immeasurable difficulties in the years to come - I think my fear has been borne out and still seems to go under the radar as a root cause of our troubles. We have other problems but an investment in hoovering up and bringing on young players and having a competitive framework for our wider squad, not just the match day eleven, has to be one of the most grievous oversights a professional football club hoping to be taken seriously can make. so what can me you and any ordinary supporter do about the poor overall running of the club in recent times? it strikes me thats lots of clubs have been badly run,,blackpool,portsmouth,blackburn ,bolton and lesser known teams like ours but all i can do is go and support or not go and support,and this season has at times felt like progress at least on the playing and team mangement side,, so what do we do about higgs and co then apart from saying whats already been said?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 9:10:13 GMT
I think as fans one thing we can do is be more tolerant of the fans that do raise their head above parapet.
Personally I'm in the happy clappy get behind them camp but I am immensely grateful that there are fans out there who raise the right questions and who keep the club on its toes.
These people deserve a bit more respect and support imo. There are a handful who seem to want us to fail so they can say I told you so at Nick but the majority are trying to raise good points for all the right reasons.
As pro club/board/dc as I am someone needs to hold the club to account. As long as its constructive and the person gets behind the team on a Saturday, that's ok with me.
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Post by LJG on Nov 26, 2014 9:27:21 GMT
But as I said above; isn't that what we hear at every turn? When does the "getting behind the team" point run out when we're allowed to say "Hang on .. this is f**ked! Can't we sort it out?" I'm genuinely interested in this so please don't think I'm jumping down your throat. What is it exactly that we need to change and how? Don't get me wrong, I think we all agree many things have been mishandled over the years but what exactly are you referring to? I agree we've spunked our wage bill on players that turned out to be crap over the years but most of them on paper seemed like good signings, at best the club got very unlucky at worst the philosophy of buying experienced pros was wrong because they were past it/treated us as a retirement home. DC has pretty much fixed this now by getting in young, hungry kids from this level. If you're referring to the UWE, I think blaming Higgs entirely is pretty unfair to be honest, Sainsburys and TRASH have made this extremely difficult and the fact that Sainsburys haven't simply been able to walk away suggests that he must have done something right with the contracts. What if these rumours of a positive announcement soon turn out to be true? Will you be less upset about everything else? I get the feeling you're one of the older chaps who see being at this level as an unbearable indignity and to be fair I can't know how you feel because I've only ever known us as a crap side but I don't see how anything other than supporting the team is going to get us back up. 1. Where on earth has all the money gone? This isn't a new problem either. Geoff Twentyman cut my dad off on his Friday night phone in for asking that question back in the 90s. 2. No reserve team 3. No scouting network 4. No general attempt to properly market the club - free tickets to schools etc 5. No overall commercial awareness - hundreds of tiny examples one being you can only get a box if you do the whole lunch and tea thing, you can't get a reduced rate to go and put money into the bar, and so the box stays empty.
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Post by stevek192 on Nov 26, 2014 11:15:12 GMT
Answers to your questions: 1. Spend hours wading through the clubs accounts for the last 30 years and you will get your answer. 2. Who does have a reserve team in this day and age? Certainly not a Conference team and most teams in League 2 struggle to have enough players to fill the bench sometimes. I haven't looked but I would say that most of League 1 are exactly the same. 3. Not so sure on this one but certainly I would be surprised if many Conference teams had "Scouting Networks" and again in all the Lower Leagues. 4. I believe this is being done to an extent but agree that this is an avenue that could be better performed and would suggest it should be done by a Committee of fans headed by one of the directors. 5. Does this come under the guise of the Barry Bradshaw Committee of Supporters? Its a good suggestion so perhaps have a word with John Kayes who i believe is on this Committee.
It is very easy to find things to criticise the Board for but at the end of the day we are in the fifth tier and maybe the money is spent on more important things. Many failed attempts over the years to get our New Home do not come cheaply and trying to compete at a level a City the size of Bristol should be competing is impossible given the vast amounts of money involved and even more obvious the amount of debt that is built up by competing at the top level.
This is not intended as a criticism of your post LJG as it has many valid points.
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Post by LJG on Nov 26, 2014 11:39:10 GMT
Answers to your questions: 1. Spend hours wading through the clubs accounts for the last 30 years and you will get your answer. 2. Who does have a reserve team in this day and age? Certainly not a Conference team and most teams in League 2 struggle to have enough players to fill the bench sometimes. I haven't looked but I would say that most of League 1 are exactly the same. 3. Not so sure on this one but certainly I would be surprised if many Conference teams had "Scouting Networks" and again in all the Lower Leagues. 4. I believe this is being done to an extent but agree that this is an avenue that could be better performed and would suggest it should be done by a Committee of fans headed by one of the directors. 5. Does this come under the guise of the Barry Bradshaw Committee of Supporters? Its a good suggestion so perhaps have a word with John Kayes who i believe is on this Committee. It is very easy to find things to criticise the Board for but at the end of the day we are in the fifth tier and maybe the money is spent on more important things. Many failed attempts over the years to get our New Home do not come cheaply and trying to compete at a level a City the size of Bristol should be competing is impossible given the vast amounts of money involved and even more obvious the amount of debt that is built up by competing at the top level. This is not intended as a criticism of your post LJG as it has many valid points. I have had a look at the accounts on a few occasions over the last ... hmm let's say eight - twelve years. Plenty of money going on rent. Someone have a word with our landlord. Who is that anyway? The rest of my points you address from the perspective of a conference or bottom Lg 2 club. I'm struggling to see how you're having difficulty with this: how long have we been a conference team? And how long were we a basement team before that? My first post referred to the assets we have wasted over the years, your response simply further illustrates my point rather than counters it.
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Post by stevek192 on Nov 26, 2014 12:11:36 GMT
We have been a basement club for most of the years since 2000. You can only play against teams who have a reserve side. Why would any of the Championship/Premiership clubs want to play a Bristol Rovers reserve team. I am not trying to counter your points just commenting on them. Some I agree with. My problem is that it is no good looking back and apportioning blame. We have to look at the present and how we can move forward. I would say that we are STARTING to move forwards. If, and it is still a big if, we manage to get the New Stadium then that is when we COULD really start to move forward and that is when IMO the Board must get professional help or help from Supporters talents so as mistakes are not made again or not so many made. Our main problem is that Football is now about Premiership and thats it. If you are in the Elite then you are Ok and get ALL the advantages,if you aren't then you are given a dinghy and a paddle in the middle of the ocean.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 13:00:54 GMT
I'm genuinely interested in this so please don't think I'm jumping down your throat. What is it exactly that we need to change and how? Don't get me wrong, I think we all agree many things have been mishandled over the years but what exactly are you referring to? I agree we've spunked our wage bill on players that turned out to be crap over the years but most of them on paper seemed like good signings, at best the club got very unlucky at worst the philosophy of buying experienced pros was wrong because they were past it/treated us as a retirement home. DC has pretty much fixed this now by getting in young, hungry kids from this level. If you're referring to the UWE, I think blaming Higgs entirely is pretty unfair to be honest, Sainsburys and TRASH have made this extremely difficult and the fact that Sainsburys haven't simply been able to walk away suggests that he must have done something right with the contracts. What if these rumours of a positive announcement soon turn out to be true? Will you be less upset about everything else? I get the feeling you're one of the older chaps who see being at this level as an unbearable indignity and to be fair I can't know how you feel because I've only ever known us as a crap side but I don't see how anything other than supporting the team is going to get us back up. 1. Where on earth has all the money gone? This isn't a new problem either. Geoff Twentyman cut my dad off on his Friday night phone in for asking that question back in the 90s. 2. No reserve team 3. No scouting network 4. No general attempt to properly market the club - free tickets to schools etc 5. No overall commercial awareness - hundreds of tiny examples one being you can only get a box if you do the whole lunch and tea thing, you can't get a reduced rate to go and put money into the bar, and so the box stays empty. 1. I would guess spunked on dud players as previously discussed and at present tied up in legal fees. 2. Um, if we have no reserve team, who played Cinderford? 3. Needs sorting. However, we managed to sign Angelo Balanta a host of, I feel, excellent hard-working players from this level and get LDV on loan without one. 4. Gates remain pretty high for a poorly marketed club. I like the 10 - 20 game season ticket thing. I agree they could put some better offers on the table for sure. Free school kids is a good idea. I'm hoping if UWE happens there'll be some attempt to attract the massive pool of students. 5. Can't really see how that will effect what happens on the pitch but okay fair point.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 13:11:40 GMT
They do lots of free tickets for school kids but bizarrely they don't promote or announce this.
It's something I was talking about at the game last night. The club do an awful lot of good but they seem so poor at bigging themselves up for it.
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Post by LJG on Nov 26, 2014 15:05:30 GMT
1. Where on earth has all the money gone? This isn't a new problem either. Geoff Twentyman cut my dad off on his Friday night phone in for asking that question back in the 90s. 2. No reserve team 3. No scouting network 4. No general attempt to properly market the club - free tickets to schools etc 5. No overall commercial awareness - hundreds of tiny examples one being you can only get a box if you do the whole lunch and tea thing, you can't get a reduced rate to go and put money into the bar, and so the box stays empty. 1. I would guess spunked on dud players as previously discussed and at present tied up in legal fees. 2. Um, if we have no reserve team, who played Cinderford? 3. Needs sorting. However, we managed to sign Angelo Balanta a host of, I feel, excellent hard-working players from this level and get LDV on loan without one. 4. Gates remain pretty high for a poorly marketed club. I like the 10 - 20 game season ticket thing. I agree they could put some better offers on the table for sure. Free school kids is a good idea. I'm hoping if UWE happens there'll be some attempt to attract the massive pool of students. 5. Can't really see how that will effect what happens on the pitch but okay fair point. 1. Um, the development squad. Not the same as a reserve team who plays in a competitive league. 4 & 5. You don't see how a) increased revenue and b) the club looking like and being treated as a professional work place instead of "ragbag Rovers" in a modern footballing world to attract, attention, investment, players and coaching and managerial staff could improve things on the pitch?
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Post by LJG on Nov 26, 2014 15:29:58 GMT
We have been a basement club for most of the years since 2000. You can only play against teams who have a reserve side. Why would any of the Championship/Premiership clubs want to play a Bristol Rovers reserve team. I am not trying to counter your points just commenting on them. Some I agree with. My problem is that it is no good looking back and apportioning blame. We have to look at the present and how we can move forward. I would say that we are STARTING to move forwards. If, and it is still a big if, we manage to get the New Stadium then that is when we COULD really start to move forward and that is when IMO the Board must get professional help or help from Supporters talents so as mistakes are not made again or not so many made. Our main problem is that Football is now about Premiership and thats it. If you are in the Elite then you are Ok and get ALL the advantages,if you aren't then you are given a dinghy and a paddle in the middle of the ocean. Again you're talking about us as the lowest of the low ... This is exactly my point, we haven't been so actually yes we did and could have a reserve squad that played regular competitive fixtures. Plenty of teams wanted to play Bristol Rovers reserves. The other part about let's hope we can get promoted, let's hope we get the UWE is exactly what I'm talking about - basing our future on hopes rather than plans is precisely why we're in the doodoo we're in! We were only in the relegation zone for 70 minutes remember!
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