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Post by playtowin on Jan 12, 2021 9:02:27 GMT
You can have what ever aspirations you want but if the immediate issue is getting away from the relegation zone reality has to surpass aspirations. Having young players coming through and establishing themselves is what we all want. However, we all see every season how far all the premiership kids get in the pizza cup. Not far at all. We all saw how well championship Derbys kids did against chorley in the FA cup. BG seemed to ignore that basic evidence and think he could be different. It proved incorrect. Balance whilst having opportunity is what's needed. I must admit to getting myself lost in the BG era, I think I so desperately wanted it to work that I fooled myself a bit. The recruitment of the more technical players I believe was a good call but only now that it is intermingled with some experience. Tisdale (with 15+ years of manager experience and also a playing career) gets it, has done it many times before so we have to believe that he will do it again. He seems to focus on the mindset for the players (just listen to Alfie talk) and our recruitment team listen to the wants of the managers and go out and try to achieve that. Until we see otherwise I have the feeling we have a really good setup here at the Rovers and with Tisdales experience and Waels passion and commitment I am very positive for what the future holds Back to the subject of Ogogo... I think he will add something (balance?) to the team as we don't really have a midfielder with that bite (although I have seen it starting to happen with Grant in small parts ... and what better mentor to have about 'getting stuck in' than Ogogo. If we say let Kelly go out to free up Ogogo's place in the squad then I think that is a good call. No offence to Kelly it's just he hasn't featured for 3 managers regularly now. So in terms of forward or backward steps I think its more of an 'as we were' but with a slightly different dynamic available in midfield as apposed to another LB not being picked. thoughts? I feel the players that will go out on loan are doing so not because they are no good or dont fit in or dont try it's because they need game time. Which currently they are not getting. Areas of the pitch with a surplus of talent is the obvious place to start.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 9:08:05 GMT
A very average League One player. I loved his attitude and commitment but if we’ve got aspirations to be a top end side this is a backwards step. I found it strange that when he was made available no clubs in league one or two snapped him up. Perhaps he’s not as good as many think? You can have what ever aspirations you want but if the immediate issue is getting away from the relegation zone reality has to surpass aspirations. Having young players coming through and establishing themselves is what we all want. However, we all see every season how far all the premiership kids get in the pizza cup. Not far at all. We all saw how well championship Derbys kids did against chorley in the FA cup. BG seemed to ignore that basic evidence and think he could be different. It proved incorrect. Balance whilst having opportunity is what's needed. I think the form under PT is good enough to see us slowly move up the table. I agree that a mix of experience and youth is right but not sure bringing Abs in to replace Upson is going to do much for us. Above everything I want quality players and just don’t see Abs as an improvement on the current squad. Flying into tackles and sending people flying appeases fans but playing a defensive midfield role is about positional sense as much as anything. I personally prefer a Carrick style holding midfielder to a Vinny Jones type but everyone sees things differently. PT will do what he thinks is best for the team.
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Post by goodnightirene1883 on Jan 12, 2021 9:12:17 GMT
You can have what ever aspirations you want but if the immediate issue is getting away from the relegation zone reality has to surpass aspirations. Having young players coming through and establishing themselves is what we all want. However, we all see every season how far all the premiership kids get in the pizza cup. Not far at all. We all saw how well championship Derbys kids did against chorley in the FA cup. BG seemed to ignore that basic evidence and think he could be different. It proved incorrect. Balance whilst having opportunity is what's needed. I think the form under PT is good enough to see us slowly move up the table. I agree that a mix of experience and youth is right but not sure bringing Abs in to replace Upson is going to do much for us. Above everything I want quality players and just don’t see Abs as an improvement on the current squad. Flying into tackles and sending people flying appeases fans but playing a defensive midfield role is about positional sense as much as anything. I personally prefer a Carrick style holding midfielder to a Vinny Jones type but everyone sees things differently. PT will do what he thinks is best for the team. I hadn't thought about that part but yeah a modern day DM (Phillips for Leeds) pulls a lot of the playmaking strings as you suggest.
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Post by playtowin on Jan 12, 2021 9:15:04 GMT
You can have what ever aspirations you want but if the immediate issue is getting away from the relegation zone reality has to surpass aspirations. Having young players coming through and establishing themselves is what we all want. However, we all see every season how far all the premiership kids get in the pizza cup. Not far at all. We all saw how well championship Derbys kids did against chorley in the FA cup. BG seemed to ignore that basic evidence and think he could be different. It proved incorrect. Balance whilst having opportunity is what's needed. I think the form under PT is good enough to see us slowly move up the table. I agree that a mix of experience and youth is right but not sure bringing Abs in to replace Upson is going to do much for us. Above everything I want quality players and just don’t see Abs as an improvement on the current squad. Flying into tackles and sending people flying appeases fans but playing a defensive midfield role is about positional sense as much as anything. I personally prefer a Carrick style holding midfielder to a Vinny Jones type but everyone sees things differently. PT will do what he thinks is best for the team. I dont see him replacing upson. I see him being competition for grant. To get the best out of upson you need a strong player alongside him in my opinion
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Post by gulfofaden on Jan 12, 2021 9:57:27 GMT
A very average League One player. I loved his attitude and commitment but if we’ve got aspirations to be a top end side this is a backwards step. I found it strange that when he was made available no clubs in league one or two snapped him up. Perhaps he’s not as good as many think? A very average L1 player who was a major part of helping us get to 3rd in the table before GC departed? As far as being "snapped up" how do you know we didn't get offers but Ogogo decided that he only wanted to return to his form town club if BG was forcing him out? I guess we'll find out how good he is over the next few months. 3rd in the table due to about 8 games where we had the pi$$ taken and stole a goal. Nearly every game with most fans walking away thinking “how on earth did we get anything from that game?” There is no way we were staying in that position. GC, family aside, would not have given up a nailed on chance at the championship and gone to Mansfield. He knew it, we all knew it, most of the fans hated Coughlans brand and it only seemed to turn on beating Ipswich away, when we all started to believe and then he left. Football is all about results, but results don’t necessarily mean good football. We were utterly flattered by that league position.
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Post by playtowin on Jan 12, 2021 11:26:54 GMT
A very average L1 player who was a major part of helping us get to 3rd in the table before GC departed? As far as being "snapped up" how do you know we didn't get offers but Ogogo decided that he only wanted to return to his form town club if BG was forcing him out? I guess we'll find out how good he is over the next few months. 3rd in the table due to about 8 games where we had the pi$$ taken and stole a goal. Nearly every game with most fans walking away thinking “how on earth did we get anything from that game?” There is no way we were staying in that position. GC, family aside, would not have given up a nailed on chance at the championship and gone to Mansfield. He knew it, we all knew it, most of the fans hated Coughlans brand and it only seemed to turn on beating Ipswich away, when we all started to believe and then he left. Football is all about results, but results don’t necessarily mean good football. We were utterly flattered by that league position. You are where you are in a table based on how good you are at securing points. Would you take 2 seasons of awful football but find yourself kicking off the 3rd in the premier league ? Even if they lost every game that would still be the highest level the club has ever played at. There is absolutely no evidence that the team would have fallen away under GC . Having managed 56 games he picked up what would be 93 pts. Or an average of 1.66pts per game. So about 76 pts over a season. That should be playoff positions.
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Post by Gassy on Jan 12, 2021 11:41:05 GMT
A very average L1 player who was a major part of helping us get to 3rd in the table before GC departed? As far as being "snapped up" how do you know we didn't get offers but Ogogo decided that he only wanted to return to his form town club if BG was forcing him out? I guess we'll find out how good he is over the next few months. 3rd in the table due to about 8 games where we had the pi$$ taken and stole a goal. Nearly every game with most fans walking away thinking “how on earth did we get anything from that game?” There is no way we were staying in that position. GC, family aside, would not have given up a nailed on chance at the championship and gone to Mansfield. He knew it, we all knew it, most of the fans hated Coughlans brand and it only seemed to turn on beating Ipswich away, when we all started to believe and then he left. Football is all about results, but results don’t necessarily mean good football. We were utterly flattered by that league position. Sorry, but that's rubbish. Most fans weren't thinking that at all. Of the games we won: Tranmere 2-0, deserved completely Oxford 3-1, deserved completely Lincoln 1-0, thought we deserved that. Could maybe understand a draw Wimbledon 3-1, deserved completely Rotherham 1-0, deserved completely MK Dons 1-0, deserved completely Rochdale 2-1, I can't remember tbh Shrewsbury 4-3, deserved - would have been unlucky to draw after throwing it away nearly Southend 4-2, deserved completely after a horrific first half Ipswich 2-1, deserved completely Were we overachieving? Yes. Were we flattered? Perhaps, but we deserved to be 3rd based on the amount of points we had. We weren't Barcelona, but we were bloody effective and successful at what we did. Are you going to start saying that Wycombe were lucky to get promoted or were flattered? What about when Leicester won the league? Sure we probably would have dropped off, but I'm confident we'd have made the play offs that season. But to say, "8 games where we had the pi$$ taken and stole a goal" is just not true and an insult to the team. Care to point out those 8 game from that list? There's only 10 wins, so it should be easy for you.
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Post by Rod1883 on Jan 12, 2021 12:33:43 GMT
Many games under GC were hard to watch, particularly on TV. However when you're in the ground a good battling and at times backs to the wall performance gets everyone going - the games at Ipswich and then a few days later at Plymouth being prime examples (I know GC had gone after the Ipswich game but it was still his team and tactics at Plymouth). I was at Ipswich and the atmosphere and the singing to keep the boys going made it a great performance. The similar, if not more so, ground out win at Plymouth a few days later was so much harder to watch on tv.
I agree with Gassy we were overachieving, but the spirit and fight in that team would have carried on. Yes we might have got 'found out' a bit more second half of the season as other mangers got wise to what we were doing, but I'm sure we would have still been up in/near the play-off zone at the end.
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Post by chewbacca on Jan 12, 2021 12:42:20 GMT
3rd in the table due to about 8 games where we had the pi$$ taken and stole a goal. Nearly every game with most fans walking away thinking “how on earth did we get anything from that game?” There is no way we were staying in that position. GC, family aside, would not have given up a nailed on chance at the championship and gone to Mansfield. He knew it, we all knew it, most of the fans hated Coughlans brand and it only seemed to turn on beating Ipswich away, when we all started to believe and then he left. Football is all about results, but results don’t necessarily mean good football. We were utterly flattered by that league position. Sorry, but that's rubbish. Most fans weren't thinking that at all. Of the games we won: Tranmere 2-0, deserved completely Oxford 3-1, deserved completely Lincoln 1-0, thought we deserved that. Could maybe understand a draw Wimbledon 3-1, deserved completely Rotherham 1-0, deserved completely MK Dons 1-0, deserved completely Rochdale 2-1, I can't remember tbh Shrewsbury 4-3, deserved - would have been unlucky to draw after throwing it away nearly Southend 4-2, deserved completely after a horrific first half Ipswich 2-1, deserved completely Were we overachieving? Yes. Were we flattered? Perhaps, but we deserved to be 3rd based on the amount of points we had. We weren't Barcelona, but we were bloody effective and successful at what we did. Are you going to start saying that Wycombe were lucky to get promoted or were flattered? What about when Leicester won the league? Sure we probably would have dropped off, but I'm confident we'd have made the play offs that season. But to say, "8 games where we had the pi$$ taken and stole a goal" is just not true and an insult to the team. Care to point out those 8 game from that list? There's only 10 wins, so it should be easy for you. The narrative spun post-Coughlan was interesting. It seemed like the club and some of our supporters tried to undermine Graham's contribution. His figures with regards to PPG and Win % are up there with some of the clubs most successful managers, he turned a side that was relegation fodder into one that looked like challenging and then he had his head turned. The football was basic, built around industry and organisation with a fantastic striker able to create something from nothing. Once Graham left there was this idea that Garnerball was more entertaining, a defeat to Wycombe was held up as a moral victory, "it's much more enjoyable to watch" screamed those desperate to play down Coughlan's achievements. In reality, we were good, we were winners and we played like we gave a sh**.
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Post by phillistine on Jan 12, 2021 12:44:54 GMT
A very average L1 player who was a major part of helping us get to 3rd in the table before GC departed? As far as being "snapped up" how do you know we didn't get offers but Ogogo decided that he only wanted to return to his form town club if BG was forcing him out? I guess we'll find out how good he is over the next few months. 3rd in the table due to about 8 games where we had the pi$$ taken and stole a goal. Nearly every game with most fans walking away thinking “how on earth did we get anything from that game?” There is no way we were staying in that position. GC, family aside, would not have given up a nailed on chance at the championship and gone to Mansfield. He knew it, we all knew it, most of the fans hated Coughlans brand and it only seemed to turn on beating Ipswich away, when we all started to believe and then he left. Football is all about results, but results don’t necessarily mean good football. We were utterly flattered by that league position. Every team needs a grafter - someone who does the effective and ugly stuff and then passes the ball to the more creative outlets . Abs did that very well and it was not his fault that we didn't have creatives in form and he was trying to offer that as well. We have seen what happened with Alfie when he was asked to do something completely alien to his natural game .
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Post by goodnightirene1883 on Jan 12, 2021 13:04:21 GMT
3rd in the table due to about 8 games where we had the pi$$ taken and stole a goal. Nearly every game with most fans walking away thinking “how on earth did we get anything from that game?” There is no way we were staying in that position. GC, family aside, would not have given up a nailed on chance at the championship and gone to Mansfield. He knew it, we all knew it, most of the fans hated Coughlans brand and it only seemed to turn on beating Ipswich away, when we all started to believe and then he left. Football is all about results, but results don’t necessarily mean good football. We were utterly flattered by that league position. Every team needs a grafter - someone who does the effective and ugly stuff and then passes the ball to the more creative outlets . Abs did that very well and it was not his fault that we didn't have creatives in form and he was trying to offer that as well. We have seen what happened with Alfie when he was asked to do something completely alien to his natural game . Lets hope that this style suits his and our game. I worry tonight if he plays that we may lack that creativity in and around him, especially if Westy is rested. This is due to Ozzy and McCormick unable to play so we are looking at Barrett for creativity if Upson (argue amongst yourselves if he is creative) is also rested. While I am positive about Barrett, its yet to be seen over anything more that 30 mins if he can do that role well. I wasn't privy to the U23s game at Bath where he scored but it would have been good to know more about how long he played, what position and how it went etc. I a really looking forward to him starting, just so we can be more clear about him as a player/prospect. Loosing track of my initial point now sorry. With the midfield diamond which I assume we will play it will be a bit like this one assumes: Goal Keeper Defence ---------- Ogogo ---------- Hargreaves----------Grant ---------- Barrett ---------- Attack Alternatively I suppose you have the energy or Hargreaves and Ogogo so maybe Grant will be the pivot and the other two the number 8 roles. Either way we are going to lack a lot of creativity that would normally get from McCormick and Westbrooke in the middle of the park. Maybe Liddle comes in? He looked calm enough against non league opponents, could be interesting. Also what are your views on Koiki and Ayunga up top? I think I would prefer that as apposed to 4-3-3 which I think we haven't quite got the hang of yet. Another thought might be 4-2-3-1 formation with Ayunga up top, Grant and Ogogo as the double pivot and Hargreaves, Barrett and Koiki as the mids Argh... too much to think about. Thoughts?
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Post by rovers5charlton5 on Jan 12, 2021 15:47:07 GMT
3rd in the table due to about 8 games where we had the pi$$ taken and stole a goal. Nearly every game with most fans walking away thinking “how on earth did we get anything from that game?” There is no way we were staying in that position. GC, family aside, would not have given up a nailed on chance at the championship and gone to Mansfield. He knew it, we all knew it, most of the fans hated Coughlans brand and it only seemed to turn on beating Ipswich away, when we all started to believe and then he left. Football is all about results, but results don’t necessarily mean good football. We were utterly flattered by that league position. Sorry, but that's rubbish. Most fans weren't thinking that at all. Of the games we won: Tranmere 2-0, deserved completely Oxford 3-1, deserved completely Lincoln 1-0, thought we deserved that. Could maybe understand a draw Wimbledon 3-1, deserved completely Rotherham 1-0, deserved completely MK Dons 1-0, deserved completely Rochdale 2-1, I can't remember tbh Shrewsbury 4-3, deserved - would have been unlucky to draw after throwing it away nearly Southend 4-2, deserved completely after a horrific first half Ipswich 2-1, deserved completely Were we overachieving? Yes. Were we flattered? Perhaps, but we deserved to be 3rd based on the amount of points we had. We weren't Barcelona, but we were bloody effective and successful at what we did. Are you going to start saying that Wycombe were lucky to get promoted or were flattered? What about when Leicester won the league? Sure we probably would have dropped off, but I'm confident we'd have made the play offs that season. But to say, "8 games where we had the pi$$ taken and stole a goal" is just not true and an insult to the team. Care to point out those 8 game from that list? There's only 10 wins, so it should be easy for you. Calm down Graham 🙂. How's the time off away from management going? I hope the Missus appreciates it!
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Post by stroudgas93 on Jan 12, 2021 15:54:52 GMT
You may be right but I’d be amazed if a first team regular is moved out of the 22 man squad for the rest of the season. Just wouldn’t make any sense irrespective of your opinion of Upson. UTG! Yeah it would come as a surprise to me too given how much Upson has featured under Tisdale so far. I would imagine Kelly, Liddle, Hargreaves, Barrett and Tutonda are far more likely candidates given they’ve not got many minutes under their belts so far this season. I hear Barrett secured a six month deal at fat camp.
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Post by goodnightirene1883 on Jan 13, 2021 12:45:33 GMT
So Ogogo came back and featured right away in the EFL trophy as part of a midfield three including Grant (another DM playing as CM) and Westbrooke. He put pressure on the opponents, made some tackles and visibly broke up play. When on the ball he was fairly balanced with forward passes, offloads to the creative players or back to safety. Did some fouling and took plenty of knocks. Got a yellow as we are accustomed to for a late challenge.
I know his return sparked debate - I still think he is a good addition to the 'Squad' as he brings something else to the table that I don't think many do in the pressure and tackling department. I read someone post that he is the only midfielder we have that is intimidating and I liked that comment. We are non aggressive unit for sure so that element I liked (hopefully he can rub of on Grant and make him a little nastier).
So, what do we think?
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Post by Quarters on Jan 13, 2021 13:31:52 GMT
On an average per minute do the stats show he did more than Grant?
He did a couple of positive things but also lost the ball a lot.
For the goal if that had been Upson or Grant failing to close the player down then there would be many comments, but Abs seems to not get them.
For any strength he brings he also brings a weakness to the midfield, especially when a three. He does not create space or look for the ball when we ave it, this may explain why Westbrook struggled and was caught in possession at times.
Cannot see why he would be first on the teamsheet.
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Post by bridgwatergas on Jan 13, 2021 15:03:31 GMT
On an average per minute do the stats show he did more than Grant? He did a couple of positive things but also lost the ball a lot. For the goal if that had been Upson or Grant failing to close the player down then there would be many comments, but Abs seems to not get them. For any strength he brings he also brings a weakness to the midfield, especially when a three. He does not create space or look for the ball when we ave it, this may explain why Westbrook struggled and was caught in possession at times. Cannot see why he would be first on the teamsheet. It seems Abs can do no wrong in some fans eyes but I just can't see what he will bring to the team that will help us move forward. He is slow and gets caught out of position too often this is why Grant is the better player he dosent need to make the tough tackles as he reads the game better and breaks up play without having to kick a player in the air. Grant is composed on the ball and comfortable with it at his feet and can start the fast flowing moves that our forwards need. Abs is more a sideways and backward player which slows the play down.
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