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Post by Jon the Stripe on Aug 18, 2014 7:29:06 GMT
.
Right i'm gonna say it and will get shot down, but....
Take a breath when we lose FFS, we don't need to over react all the time. Take some time to think about it. I've read - Board Out, Darrell Out, Boycotts, Revolution etc, etc
It's not that simple. And it never will be.
The result on Saturday was terrible end of story - Unacceptable. But, lets be honest, this was coming, preparation has been slow and we were never gonna hit the ground running (even though that was the soundbite used by DC in his passionate interviews) , we're playing teams we all THINK we should beat every week, get real - the secret to carry out that task will not come overnight. What strikes me is how slow people were in the summer to affect change, losing two games now is nothing compared to the lowest point in our history - RELEGATION FROM LEAGUE FOOTBALL!!! The Nick Higgs Q & A attendance didn't even fill the 120 places available! This weekend literally thousands have taken to social media sites expressing this that and the other, as they did back in May, all with harsh opinions, excellent thoughts and some good ideas....But, given the chance to air those views to the people that matter and LESS THAN 100 TURN UP!
In my experience the club do respond to Pressure (for want of a better word) and believe it or not they will listen to you. You may not get get all your concerns aired and you certainly may not get the answers you want, but if you keep up the asking at least your trying and if even one suggestion works then you've made a difference.
Things will not get better with knee jerk reactions, sack this, sack that! It's got to be constructive, proactive. In my opinion this club does not need revolution, it needs "REFORM" with people stepping up to the plate with thoughts and ideas. The club is Stale in my opinion it's become a millstone for even those who love the club and to some degree that even includes us. It's certainly no fun following Rovers the last decade, god knows what it must be like to sink your money in and do (what you consider) your best and watch the dire results continue.
For what it's worth, i think Nick Higgs is Gas through and through and is actually trying his best. I have met most of the directors, i have also criticised them (much to their annoyance) and challenged them. They are struggling of that there's no doubt, and yes being brutal - they're failing! But, FFS, tell 'em something they don't know!
What can we do? Well, we need a stronger voice for sure, i've seen BRISA's mandate etc, seems good, but one thing is missing - A Leader. You've got to have something to get behind and it needs to be strong and able to be criticised itself. Just look across the Forums and you'll see so many different opinions. How the hell do you get to decide what you even want, let alone expect others to do it!
Personally, i think DC is the wrong man, i'll support him and good god i hope he proves me wrong, but i have had doubts since he took over in March. I won't go into details or it'll be a 5 pager ha ha.
Our biggest problem immediately is it looks like we're in massive trouble (again). But, think about it.
Sack The Board - well you can't for a start, but even if you could who will come in, and WILL they do better (there's no guarantees)
Sack The Manager - Just too early tbh. But, yes i think he will be gone rather quickly if things don't get better soon.
Change all the players (again) - A few maybe, but build a squad again?, can't happen during a season.
As i said earlier, the time for voicing concerns etc was during close season, when you prepare for the new one. Personally, i'll continue to voice my concerns to the board to encourage "Reform" and yes i'm prepared to stick my neck out to be heard. I like everyone else want that magic wand to put everything right, but sorry to disappoint every Gashead in the world but it don't exist!
One thing i would encourage everyone to do is attend Q & A's, Join the Supporters Club to make it stronger in numbers and power, Develop and volunteer your help to Supporters Groups, ask the club questions (in a dignified respectful way). Football in the modern world is full of factions, that's life i'm afraid, so although i'd love to say "Pull Together" it aint happening cause we all have such diverse opinions and answers to our problems. It's gone in todays society we don't stand united, if 50 hold a protest at The Mem 50 others will shout "move on you idiots, get behind em" and of course vice-versa. That's why atmospheres are crap nowadays,fans sing not together but in pockets/groups. There's only one thing in football that "Pulls everyone together" - Goals and Victories! We're united in victory but divided in defeat.
One thing i'll add before finally stopping rambling is...Have your say, express your concerns, and never give up your right to say what you think etc. But some of these lads are only just realising what its like to play in front of 5,000+ crowds. it will spur them on (as against Grimsby second half) but it will destroy them if its venomous and will act like a 12th man for the opposition.
Thanks for reading. UTG
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 7:40:17 GMT
Firstly that was a really good post that i largely agree with. Where we seperate i guess is that i believe there are alternatives to the board and rather then snuggling up to them we need to be more militant as they keep failing to keep the promises they make to the fans. They have learnt nothing they have reviewed nothing . Uwe is the answer to everything for them when we should be focussed on playe recruitment and increasing revenue streams.
We need new investment and ideas but every time this is offered it is turned down. DC is out of his depth but we have to keep him because sacking managers didn't work. I would say our way of appointing managers hasn't worked the boardroom hasn't worked.
There is a reason they keep turning down investors and as such if they wont go we have to try and force them out imo.
I agree we need a leader to get behind which for me would be John M (cant spell his surname) who used to chair the suporters club but im sure he has probably had enough.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 7:47:54 GMT
Jon
My memory may be playing tricks but following the board split and failed agenda for change Geoff Dunford stepped down as chairman to be replaced by Ron Craig. Am i right in recalling a real change in atmosphere at the club which tied in with our promotion.
Do you think that a change of chairman at this stage could / would have a similar effect ?
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Post by Jon the Stripe on Aug 18, 2014 7:55:55 GMT
Jon My memory may be playing tricks but following the board split and failed agenda for change Geoff Dunford stepped down as chairman to be replaced by Ron Craig. Am i right in recalling a real change in atmosphere at the club which tied in with our promotion. Do you think that a change of chairman at this stage could / would have a similar effect ? I think we all know and now realise, its not the shareholders that matter so much, it's who runs the club day to day, particularly who assesses the manager, who creates and demands a footballing philosophy. Nick is i'm quite sure an amiable chairmen but he isn't an expert in the business he is running - Football. My other concern would be do shareholders need to be Directors? Directors should as the name implies "Direct". well if i bought a Public House, i may be owner/shareholder but i'd want someone to "Direct" the business with license trade/retail experience. |
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Post by bs10er on Aug 18, 2014 8:09:38 GMT
Some news due this morning.Good I hope!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 8:12:27 GMT
Jon My memory may be playing tricks but following the board split and failed agenda for change Geoff Dunford stepped down as chairman to be replaced by Ron Craig. Am i right in recalling a real change in atmosphere at the club which tied in with our promotion. Do you think that a change of chairman at this stage could / would have a similar effect ? I think we all know and now realise, its not the shareholders that matter so much, it's who runs the club day to day, particularly who assesses the manager, who creates and demands a footballing philosophy. Nick is i'm quite sure an amiable chairmen but he isn't an expert in the business he is running - Football. My other concern would be do shareholders need to be Directors? Directors should as the name implies "Direct". well if i bought a Public House, i may be owner/shareholder but i'd want someone to "Direct" the business with license trade/retail experience. Totally agree, directors should be paid employees accountable for their success or failure. Chief excecutive, director if football, director of finance, commercial director. Can afford all that at present but thats what we should aim for. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 8:13:23 GMT
Some news due this morning.Good I hope! How do you know that? |
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Post by Topper Gas on Aug 18, 2014 8:16:38 GMT
Until someone comes out and says that they are prepared to invest in Rovers we just have to accept there isn't anybody prepared to take NH's place and assume there isn't another Ron Craig waiting in the wings. If so, as JTS suggests screaming "sack the board" isn't the solution.
As far as DC being out of his depth, you could say the same for Trollope, Buckle, McGhee & Ward, but sooner or later we have to stand by one of our managers, as continually replacing them clearly isn't working.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Aug 18, 2014 8:18:56 GMT
. Right i'm gonna say it and will get shot down, but.... Take a breath when we lose FFS, we don't need to over react all the time. Take some time to think about it. I've read - Board Out, Darrell Out, Boycotts, Revolution etc, etc It's not that simple. And it never will be. The result on Saturday was terrible end of story - Unacceptable. But, lets be honest, this was coming, preparation has been slow and we were never gonna hit the ground running (even though that was the soundbite used by DC in his passionate interviews) , we're playing teams we all THINK we should beat every week, get real - the secret to carry out that task will not come overnight. What strikes me is how slow people were in the summer to affect change, losing two games now is nothing compared to the lowest point in our history - RELEGATION FROM LEAGUE FOOTBALL!!! The Nick Higgs Q & A attendance didn't even fill the 120 places available! This weekend literally thousands have taken to social media sites expressing this that and the other, as they did back in May, all with harsh opinions, excellent thoughts and some good ideas....But, given the chance to air those views to the people that matter and LESS THAN 100 TURN UP! In my experience the club do respond to Pressure (for want of a better word) and believe it or not they will listen to you. You may not get get all your concerns aired and you certainly may not get the answers you want, but if you keep up the asking at least your trying and if even one suggestion works then you've made a difference. Things will not get better with knee jerk reactions, sack this, sack that! It's got to be constructive, proactive. In my opinion this club does not need revolution, it needs "REFORM" with people stepping up to the plate with thoughts and ideas. The club is Stale in my opinion it's become a millstone for even those who love the club and to some degree that even includes us. It's certainly no fun following Rovers the last decade, god knows what it must be like to sink your money in and do (what you consider) your best and watch the dire results continue. For what it's worth, i think Nick Higgs is Gas through and through and is actually trying his best. I have met most of the directors, i have also criticised them (much to their annoyance) and challenged them. They are struggling of that there's no doubt, and yes being brutal - they're failing! But, FFS, tell 'em something they don't know! What can we do? Well, we need a stronger voice for sure, i've seen BRISA's mandate etc, seems good, but one thing is missing - A Leader. You've got to have something to get behind and it needs to be strong and able to be criticised itself. Just look across the Forums and you'll see so many different opinions. How the hell do you get to decide what you even want, let alone expect others to do it! Personally, i think DC is the wrong man, i'll support him and good god i hope he proves me wrong, but i have had doubts since he took over in March. I won't go into details or it'll be a 5 pager ha ha. Our biggest problem immediately is it looks like we're in massive trouble (again). But, think about it. Sack The Board - well you can't for a start, but even if you could who will come in, and WILL they do better (there's no guarantees) Sack The Manager - Just too early tbh. But, yes i think he will be gone rather quickly if things don't get better soon. Change all the players (again) - A few maybe, but build a squad again?, can't happen during a season. As i said earlier, the time for voicing concerns etc was during close season, when you prepare for the new one. Personally, i'll continue to voice my concerns to the board to encourage "Reform" and yes i'm prepared to stick my neck out to be heard. I like everyone else want that magic wand to put everything right, but sorry to disappoint every Gashead in the world but it don't exist! One thing i would encourage everyone to do is attend Q & A's, Join the Supporters Club to make it stronger in numbers and power, Develop and volunteer your help to Supporters Groups, ask the club questions (in a dignified respectful way). Football in the modern world is full of factions, that's life i'm afraid, so although i'd love to say "Pull Together" it aint happening cause we all have such diverse opinions and answers to our problems. It's gone in todays society we don't stand united, if 50 hold a protest at The Mem 50 others will shout "move on you idiots, get behind em" and of course vice-versa. That's why atmospheres are crap nowadays,fans sing not together but in pockets/groups. There's only one thing in football that "Pulls everyone together" - Goals and Victories! We're united in victory but divided in defeat. One thing i'll add before finally stopping rambling is...Have your say, express your concerns, and never give up your right to say what you think etc. But some of these lads are only just realising what its like to play in front of 5,000+ crowds. it will spur them on (as against Grimsby second half) but it will destroy them if its venomous and will act like a 12th man for the opposition. Thanks for reading. UTG Just a shame he couldn't manage a water up in a brewery! He hasn't backed Clarke from the start of the summer both in interviews and financially. And no I don't know what the answer is Jon. I feel helpless. I feel for Clarke and yes, he probably will be the next scapegoat but even in that highlights video, I can see we tried to play football at times. Let's give him a chance. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 8:20:56 GMT
Until someone comes out and says that they are prepared to invest in Rovers we just have to accept there isn't anybody prepared to take NH's place and assume there isn't another Ron Craig waiting in the wings. If so, as JTS suggests screaming "sack the board" isn't the solution. As far as DC being out of his depth, you could say the same for Trollope, Buckle, McGhee & Ward, but sooner or later we have to stand by one of our managers, as continually replacing them clearly isn't working. Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk Trolls had Lennie but when Lennie left he blew the budget on a tiny squad. I dont think he was an awful manager but he made a big mistake with the budget that year and some of his signings were just not interested. Buckle wasn't out onhis depth he was just an arsehole who put everyones noses out of joint. McGhee was because he had not managed at our level and had been out of the game. Ward wasnt out of his depth he just didnt want to be here. |
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Post by BishopstonBRFC on Aug 18, 2014 8:24:26 GMT
. Right i'm gonna say it and will get shot down, but.... Take a breath when we lose FFS, we don't need to over react all the time. Take some time to think about it. I've read - Board Out, Darrell Out, Boycotts, Revolution etc, etc It's not that simple. And it never will be. The result on Saturday was terrible end of story - Unacceptable. But, lets be honest, this was coming, preparation has been slow and we were never gonna hit the ground running (even though that was the soundbite used by DC in his passionate interviews) , we're playing teams we all THINK we should beat every week, get real - the secret to carry out that task will not come overnight. What strikes me is how slow people were in the summer to affect change, losing two games now is nothing compared to the lowest point in our history - RELEGATION FROM LEAGUE FOOTBALL!!! The Nick Higgs Q & A attendance didn't even fill the 120 places available! This weekend literally thousands have taken to social media sites expressing this that and the other, as they did back in May, all with harsh opinions, excellent thoughts and some good ideas....But, given the chance to air those views to the people that matter and LESS THAN 100 TURN UP! In my experience the club do respond to Pressure (for want of a better word) and believe it or not they will listen to you. You may not get get all your concerns aired and you certainly may not get the answers you want, but if you keep up the asking at least your trying and if even one suggestion works then you've made a difference. Things will not get better with knee jerk reactions, sack this, sack that! It's got to be constructive, proactive. In my opinion this club does not need revolution, it needs "REFORM" with people stepping up to the plate with thoughts and ideas. The club is Stale in my opinion it's become a millstone for even those who love the club and to some degree that even includes us. It's certainly no fun following Rovers the last decade, god knows what it must be like to sink your money in and do (what you consider) your best and watch the dire results continue. For what it's worth, i think Nick Higgs is Gas through and through and is actually trying his best. I have met most of the directors, i have also criticised them (much to their annoyance) and challenged them. They are struggling of that there's no doubt, and yes being brutal - they're failing! But, FFS, tell 'em something they don't know! What can we do? Well, we need a stronger voice for sure, i've seen BRISA's mandate etc, seems good, but one thing is missing - A Leader. You've got to have something to get behind and it needs to be strong and able to be criticised itself. Just look across the Forums and you'll see so many different opinions. How the hell do you get to decide what you even want, let alone expect others to do it! Personally, i think DC is the wrong man, i'll support him and good god i hope he proves me wrong, but i have had doubts since he took over in March. I won't go into details or it'll be a 5 pager ha ha. Our biggest problem immediately is it looks like we're in massive trouble (again). But, think about it. Sack The Board - well you can't for a start, but even if you could who will come in, and WILL they do better (there's no guarantees) Sack The Manager - Just too early tbh. But, yes i think he will be gone rather quickly if things don't get better soon. Change all the players (again) - A few maybe, but build a squad again?, can't happen during a season. As i said earlier, the time for voicing concerns etc was during close season, when you prepare for the new one. Personally, i'll continue to voice my concerns to the board to encourage "Reform" and yes i'm prepared to stick my neck out to be heard. I like everyone else want that magic wand to put everything right, but sorry to disappoint every Gashead in the world but it don't exist! One thing i would encourage everyone to do is attend Q & A's, Join the Supporters Club to make it stronger in numbers and power, Develop and volunteer your help to Supporters Groups, ask the club questions (in a dignified respectful way). Football in the modern world is full of factions, that's life i'm afraid, so although i'd love to say "Pull Together" it aint happening cause we all have such diverse opinions and answers to our problems. It's gone in todays society we don't stand united, if 50 hold a protest at The Mem 50 others will shout "move on you idiots, get behind em" and of course vice-versa. That's why atmospheres are crap nowadays,fans sing not together but in pockets/groups. There's only one thing in football that "Pulls everyone together" - Goals and Victories! We're united in victory but divided in defeat. One thing i'll add before finally stopping rambling is...Have your say, express your concerns, and never give up your right to say what you think etc. But some of these lads are only just realising what its like to play in front of 5,000+ crowds. it will spur them on (as against Grimsby second half) but it will destroy them if its venomous and will act like a 12th man for the opposition. Thanks for reading. UTG I think it's a knee jerk reaction to the manner of the defeats Jon. The players looked absolutely devoid of ideas and the frustration just boiled over. |
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Post by BishopstonBRFC on Aug 18, 2014 8:27:27 GMT
. Right i'm gonna say it and will get shot down, but.... Take a breath when we lose FFS, we don't need to over react all the time. Take some time to think about it. I've read - Board Out, Darrell Out, Boycotts, Revolution etc, etc It's not that simple. And it never will be. The result on Saturday was terrible end of story - Unacceptable. But, lets be honest, this was coming, preparation has been slow and we were never gonna hit the ground running (even though that was the soundbite used by DC in his passionate interviews) , we're playing teams we all THINK we should beat every week, get real - the secret to carry out that task will not come overnight. What strikes me is how slow people were in the summer to affect change, losing two games now is nothing compared to the lowest point in our history - RELEGATION FROM LEAGUE FOOTBALL!!! The Nick Higgs Q & A attendance didn't even fill the 120 places available! This weekend literally thousands have taken to social media sites expressing this that and the other, as they did back in May, all with harsh opinions, excellent thoughts and some good ideas....But, given the chance to air those views to the people that matter and LESS THAN 100 TURN UP! In my experience the club do respond to Pressure (for want of a better word) and believe it or not they will listen to you. You may not get get all your concerns aired and you certainly may not get the answers you want, but if you keep up the asking at least your trying and if even one suggestion works then you've made a difference. Things will not get better with knee jerk reactions, sack this, sack that! It's got to be constructive, proactive. In my opinion this club does not need revolution, it needs "REFORM" with people stepping up to the plate with thoughts and ideas. The club is Stale in my opinion it's become a millstone for even those who love the club and to some degree that even includes us. It's certainly no fun following Rovers the last decade, god knows what it must be like to sink your money in and do (what you consider) your best and watch the dire results continue. For what it's worth, i think Nick Higgs is Gas through and through and is actually trying his best. I have met most of the directors, i have also criticised them (much to their annoyance) and challenged them. They are struggling of that there's no doubt, and yes being brutal - they're failing! But, FFS, tell 'em something they don't know! What can we do? Well, we need a stronger voice for sure, i've seen BRISA's mandate etc, seems good, but one thing is missing - A Leader. You've got to have something to get behind and it needs to be strong and able to be criticised itself. Just look across the Forums and you'll see so many different opinions. How the hell do you get to decide what you even want, let alone expect others to do it! Personally, i think DC is the wrong man, i'll support him and good god i hope he proves me wrong, but i have had doubts since he took over in March. I won't go into details or it'll be a 5 pager ha ha. Our biggest problem immediately is it looks like we're in massive trouble (again). But, think about it. Sack The Board - well you can't for a start, but even if you could who will come in, and WILL they do better (there's no guarantees) Sack The Manager - Just too early tbh. But, yes i think he will be gone rather quickly if things don't get better soon. Change all the players (again) - A few maybe, but build a squad again?, can't happen during a season. As i said earlier, the time for voicing concerns etc was during close season, when you prepare for the new one. Personally, i'll continue to voice my concerns to the board to encourage "Reform" and yes i'm prepared to stick my neck out to be heard. I like everyone else want that magic wand to put everything right, but sorry to disappoint every Gashead in the world but it don't exist! One thing i would encourage everyone to do is attend Q & A's, Join the Supporters Club to make it stronger in numbers and power, Develop and volunteer your help to Supporters Groups, ask the club questions (in a dignified respectful way). Football in the modern world is full of factions, that's life i'm afraid, so although i'd love to say "Pull Together" it aint happening cause we all have such diverse opinions and answers to our problems. It's gone in todays society we don't stand united, if 50 hold a protest at The Mem 50 others will shout "move on you idiots, get behind em" and of course vice-versa. That's why atmospheres are crap nowadays,fans sing not together but in pockets/groups. There's only one thing in football that "Pulls everyone together" - Goals and Victories! We're united in victory but divided in defeat. One thing i'll add before finally stopping rambling is...Have your say, express your concerns, and never give up your right to say what you think etc. But some of these lads are only just realising what its like to play in front of 5,000+ crowds. it will spur them on (as against Grimsby second half) but it will destroy them if its venomous and will act like a 12th man for the opposition. Thanks for reading. UTG Just a shame he couldn't manage a water up in a brewery! He hasn't backed Clarke from the start of the summer both in interviews and financially. And no I don't know what the answer is Jon. I feel helpless. I feel for Clarke and yes, he probably will be the next scapegoat but even in that highlights video, I can see we tried to play football at times. Let's give him a chance. First 10 minutes we played some good stuff and I think if we had scored in that period it would have been a completely different games. The ability is there but the composure is not and once Altrincham got in our faces we had no answers until White came on. |
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Aug 18, 2014 8:32:30 GMT
Just a shame he couldn't manage a water up in a brewery! He hasn't backed Clarke from the start of the summer both in interviews and financially. And no I don't know what the answer is Jon. I feel helpless. I feel for Clarke and yes, he probably will be the next scapegoat but even in that highlights video, I can see we tried to play football at times. Let's give him a chance. First 10 minutes we played some good stuff and I think if we had scored in that period it would have been a completely different games. The ability is there but the composure is not and once Altrincham got in our faces we had no answers until White came on. Exactly, I didn't go but this is the sort of thing that gives me a bit of hope and is the reason we need to give Clarke more of a chance. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 9:13:51 GMT
What i will admit to is a massive sense of panic all around the fan base. 2 relegations, huge debts, stadium issues, a manager who looks iut of his depth. Thats why there is discontent.
The panic will only subside with points on the board or acceptable reassurance from those above.
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Post by norton gasbottle on Aug 18, 2014 9:42:15 GMT
Good post Jon .I keep telling posters on here not to panic, stability is needed ,but also Just heard Geoff Dunford has resigned ,waiting for official reasons on website.
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Post by bs10er on Aug 18, 2014 9:47:12 GMT
Well thats the news then(didnt know what it was)
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Post by markczgas on Aug 18, 2014 10:39:22 GMT
Brilliant Jon - said with your heart but also with your head.
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Post by empirebaypete on Aug 18, 2014 10:43:23 GMT
Until someone comes out and says that they are prepared to invest in Rovers we just have to accept there isn't anybody prepared to take NH's place and assume there isn't another Ron Craig waiting in the wings. If so, as JTS suggests screaming "sack the board" isn't the solution. As far as DC being out of his depth, you could say the same for Trollope, Buckle, McGhee & Ward, but sooner or later we have to stand by one of our managers, as continually replacing them clearly isn't working. Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk This really. It's all well and good saying the board should go, but is there anyone prepared to invest? I've asked this before and no one says yes, so I presume NH will carry on. Good post Jon.
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Post by Henbury Gas on Aug 18, 2014 11:07:53 GMT
Simply the best post i have read for a long time - Well Done Jon.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 13:01:20 GMT
Until someone comes out and says that they are prepared to invest in Rovers we just have to accept there isn't anybody prepared to take NH's place and assume there isn't another Ron Craig waiting in the wings. If so, as JTS suggests screaming "sack the board" isn't the solution. As far as DC being out of his depth, you could say the same for Trollope, Buckle, McGhee & Ward, but sooner or later we have to stand by one of our managers, as continually replacing them clearly isn't working. Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk This really. It's all well and good saying the board should go, but is there anyone prepared to invest? I've asked this before and no one says yes, so I presume NH will carry on. Good post Jon.
This is where we have been lied to and not just once or twice. We HAVE had serious offers of investment which have either been turned down outright because of personal issues or have been vetoed. The line that no one is interested is outright BS. We have people with a plan ready to come in now, if they have not been put off, the board pushed people away and only offered around 5-10% in anycase. None of it makes any sense. The club has been led to this low point by this board. The decision making has been very poor and making financial decisions based upon grudges is never a good way to do business. There had been a lack of objectivity for years and Rovers became a closed Gentlemans club with the supporters taken as nothing but punters. This is why we have lost fans and those we do have, have lost hope. |
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