Marshy
Proper Gas
Posts: 14,105
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Post by Marshy on Apr 19, 2017 7:49:39 GMT
What was wrong with our club was going on for years prior to the drop. There is a thing in life called chance. It's not real but it's how we explain random events. You can smoke, drink and take crack every day and sometimes you'll live to age 95 by good fortune. Other are health freaks and have a heart attacck at 35. However, what we know exist are trends and likelyhoods. So, without blethering on too much, we were in a perilous state for 3 long years. We luckily scraped out of it and we did not hve the luck with us when we went donwn - it could have been ANY of the other years but that was the unlucky one. We had worse teams in that league - McGhee was lucky to have Muzzy - THAT season would have been the relegation one without Muzzy.....you can go on and on but I feel the rot at the club was eating it from the inside and DC was very much a fall guy - all those years of crap got lumped on to him and he was blamed by MOST fans for relegation - 8 games from 3 years of bullshit. It's a bit like the first world war - you could say it was the assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand which caused it, but we all know the reasons were myriad, like a spiders web, and FF was the catalyst. Much as Rovers were going out long before DC arrived and blaming him for the relegation is like blaming Franz Ferdinand for the first day of the Somme. i think most people took this view when we observed how much it hurt DC. Very unusual for a manager to care - whether it was for him or us is immaterial,here is someone who cared as much as we did about this relegation, and it took some balls to stay and rebuild with all the "DC out "bollocks. I pray we keep him because even Holloway, Pulis.....even bloody Pep or Jose and I would be thinking..."yea, but he's not DC". DC is ours, it's his club now and for gods sake Wael, keep him. Show me a smoking , drinking crack taking 95 yr old and I'll agree. Donald Trump.
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Post by countygroundhotel on Apr 19, 2017 7:49:52 GMT
We were doomed, relegation was a certainty, best thing that ever happened to the Club. I hope no-one from OTIB is reading this crap The facts are under JW we were in an incredibly better position than come the end of season. And the fact is we only needed one point at home to a team that had consistently shown themselves to be the worst team in the Football League or Mansfield who had nothing to play for. Hardly an impossible f**king position Can I suggest a communication skills course? Do you give a damn what OTIB think? Why would anyone define what they think or say based on the opinions of people they don't respect? Isn't it evident by the fact we are in a better position now than we were under JW/PB/MM? Or would we have been promoted to league one the following year? All if, buts and maybe's at the end of the day but we can all say what we like, regardless of needlessly aggressive sweary ranting. Well your view seems to be that had we not been relegated then DC wouldn't have known how to rebuild the squad / club. Personally I don't see any evidence to support that view. The FACT shows we were relegated because of one point hardly the doomed, inevitable position carp you are peddling. Perhaps a less binary view on the world may help you?
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 19, 2017 7:51:16 GMT
We were doomed, relegation was a certainty, best thing that ever happened to the Club. I hope no-one from OTIB is reading this crap The facts are under JW we were in an incredibly better position than come the end of season. And the fact is we only needed one point at home to a team that had consistently shown themselves to be the worst team in the Football League or Mansfield who had nothing to play for. Hardly an impossible f**king position We were 3 pts off the bottom two and had picked up one win in 7 games, we were already sinking like a stone so hardly in an "incredibly better position", perhaps a more experienced manager would have kept us, perhaps like Dave Penny in the past they wouldn't. But one thing is for certain DC's got us into a far better position than when he replaced JW.
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Post by countygroundhotel on Apr 19, 2017 7:53:42 GMT
We were doomed, relegation was a certainty, best thing that ever happened to the Club. I hope no-one from OTIB is reading this crap The facts are under JW we were in an incredibly better position than come the end of season. And the fact is we only needed one point at home to a team that had consistently shown themselves to be the worst team in the Football League or Mansfield who had nothing to play for. Hardly an impossible f**king position We were 3 pts off the bottom two and had picked up one win in 7 games, we were already sinking like a stone so hardly in an "incredibly better position", perhaps a more experienced manager would have kept us, perhaps like Dave Penny in the past they wouldn't. But one thing is for certain DC's got us into a far better position than when he replaced JW. Yep 3 points above relegation is incredibly better than relegated (even Sh1!heads understand that). Surely if DC wasn't responsible for relegation then neither was Dave Penny (sorry I know you struggle to logically form an argument)?
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Apr 19, 2017 8:07:11 GMT
We were 3 pts off the bottom two and had picked up one win in 7 games, we were already sinking like a stone so hardly in an "incredibly better position", perhaps a more experienced manager would have kept us, perhaps like Dave Penny in the past they wouldn't. But one thing is for certain DC's got us into a far better position than when he replaced JW. Yep 3 points above relegation is incredibly better than relegated (even Sh1!heads understand that). Surely if DC wasn't responsible for relegation then neither was Dave Penny (sorry I know you struggle to logically form an argument)? Nick Higgs was responsible for our eventual relegation. He should have backed Penny when he attempted to change the culture of players at the club. A mistake he did not repeat when he decided to back DC when he did the same thing following relegation. While I believe JW would have kept us up, I don't blame DC for taking us down. I do not think the club culture would have changed had we not been relegated. I think a lot of things we did not want to face were forced on us. Contracts, the sense of entitlement, failure to look at players on the way up, not Billy big bollox looking for a pay day. It also galvanized and united the fan base massively which again played a big part in our success. Finally, winning becomes a habit. Clearly, facing a lower quality of opposition week in week out also helps build momentum and allows the team to gain confidence. I think relegation was the making of the club.
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Post by Quartermaster on Apr 19, 2017 8:22:08 GMT
Yep 3 points above relegation is incredibly better than relegated (even Sh1!heads understand that). Surely if DC wasn't responsible for relegation then neither was Dave Penny (sorry I know you struggle to logically form an argument)? Nick Higgs was responsible for our eventual relegation. He should have backed Penny when he attempted to change the culture of players at the club. A mistake he did not repeat when he decided to back DC when he did the same thing following relegation. While I believe JW would have kept us up, I don't blame DC for taking us down. I do not think the club culture would have changed had we not been relegated. I think a lot of things we did not want to face were forced on us. Contracts, the sense of entitlement, failure to look at players on the way up, not Billy big bollox looking for a pay day. It also galvanized and united the fan base massively which again played a big part in our success. Finally, winning becomes a habit. Clearly, facing a lower quality of opposition week in week out also helps build momentum and allows the team to gain confidence. I think relegation was the making of the club. I think it was too and don't subscribe to the notion that relegation is always a bad thing and no club needs it. Interesting to know however why we were one of the rare cases of clubs who actually benefitted from it. The likes of Torquay, York, Wrexham and many others have had no such "luck". Why did we fare so well? DC? Fan base? Better resources? Or just plain luck?!
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Marshy
Proper Gas
Posts: 14,105
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Post by Marshy on Apr 19, 2017 8:39:27 GMT
Nick Higgs was responsible for our eventual relegation. He should have backed Penny when he attempted to change the culture of players at the club. A mistake he did not repeat when he decided to back DC when he did the same thing following relegation. While I believe JW would have kept us up, I don't blame DC for taking us down. I do not think the club culture would have changed had we not been relegated. I think a lot of things we did not want to face were forced on us. Contracts, the sense of entitlement, failure to look at players on the way up, not Billy big bollox looking for a pay day. It also galvanized and united the fan base massively which again played a big part in our success. Finally, winning becomes a habit. Clearly, facing a lower quality of opposition week in week out also helps build momentum and allows the team to gain confidence. I think relegation was the making of the club. I think it was too and don't subscribe to the notion that relegation is always a bad thing and no club needs it. Interesting to know however why we were one of the rare cases of clubs who actually benefitted from it. The likes of Torquay, York, Wrexham and many others have had no such "luck". Why did we fare so well? DC? Fan base? Better resources? Or just plain luck?! Its hard to say really? A lot of luck getting past Grimsby at Wembley if that had gone the wrong way I think we would still find ourselves in the conference now or maybe even in a Stockport situation and there would be no Wael that's for sure! So whatever it was apart from damn hard work from DC and the boys, thank f**k it happened, praise the lord and Mansell!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 8:45:14 GMT
Nick Higgs was responsible for our eventual relegation. He should have backed Penny when he attempted to change the culture of players at the club. A mistake he did not repeat when he decided to back DC when he did the same thing following relegation. While I believe JW would have kept us up, I don't blame DC for taking us down. I do not think the club culture would have changed had we not been relegated. I think a lot of things we did not want to face were forced on us. Contracts, the sense of entitlement, failure to look at players on the way up, not Billy big bollox looking for a pay day. It also galvanized and united the fan base massively which again played a big part in our success. Finally, winning becomes a habit. Clearly, facing a lower quality of opposition week in week out also helps build momentum and allows the team to gain confidence. I think relegation was the making of the club. I think it was too and don't subscribe to the notion that relegation is always a bad thing and no club needs it. Interesting to know however why we were one of the rare cases of clubs who actually benefitted from it. The likes of Torquay, York, Wrexham and many others have had no such "luck". Why did we fare so well? DC? Fan base? Better resources? Or just plain luck?! I guess a comparison would be Oxford United who dropped into the Conference. The appointment of arguably the best lower league Manager in Chris Wilder changed their fortunes. He got them back into the Football League and then went on to even 'greater' things when leaving Oxford to join what was then the sinking ship of Northampton Town who were 'nailed on' with Torquay to be relegated to the Conference in 2013/14. He turned Northampton around within a few months - and we were relegated. We returned to the league after one season - Northampton p$ssed League 2 easily on our return - he left and joined Sheffield United and they've p$ssed the League this season. Northampton's position was chronic when he joined them but he was an experienced Manager in the lower leagues and almost unbelievably saved them.
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Post by 2nd May 1990 on Apr 19, 2017 9:01:18 GMT
Yep 3 points above relegation is incredibly better than relegated (even Sh1!heads understand that). Surely if DC wasn't responsible for relegation then neither was Dave Penny (sorry I know you struggle to logically form an argument)? Nick Higgs was responsible for our eventual relegation. He should have backed Penny when he attempted to change the culture of players at the club. A mistake he did not repeat when he decided to back DC when he did the same thing following relegation. While I believe JW would have kept us up, I don't blame DC for taking us down. I do not think the club culture would have changed had we not been relegated. I think a lot of things we did not want to face were forced on us. Contracts, the sense of entitlement, failure to look at players on the way up, not Billy big bollox looking for a pay day. It also galvanized and united the fan base massively which again played a big part in our success. Finally, winning becomes a habit. Clearly, facing a lower quality of opposition week in week out also helps build momentum and allows the team to gain confidence. I think relegation was the making of the club. An excellent, balanced view to which I mostly subscribe. It is possible to say in one breath that part of the blame has to lie with DC for our relegation and yet in another that he went on to change the culture of the club and transform our futures. That is in no way contradictory. Whether by luck or judgement, Higgs ended up appointing the right man and he deserves credit for sticking by him when many wouldn't have done.
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 19, 2017 9:14:59 GMT
Under ward we averaged 1.23points per game which if it continued would have given us 53 points under DC with the same players we averaged .875 per game which extended over a season would equate to 40.25 points.it is pure supposition to say we would have been relegated if ward had stayed and considering there were 5 teams below is when he left is pure supposition especially as we only dropped into a relegation position just before half time in the last game when we needed a single point.it is very easy to demonise John ward but don't forget your hero was his assistant all that season and had a big input into what went on because he had to spend more time than he wanted away from the club due to personal problems I share your empathy for Ward. His was a very tough job given the circumstances at the club and in his personal life. One playing devil's advocate could argue that he took the club forward, having taken over with us in 23rd and stepped aside with us three places higher. He did good things in his first spell at the club and in his first season back he saved us after the mess of the McGhee regime. He is also a very good and principled man. A lot of forces conspired against us to see us get relegated. Let's not forget that we had countless chances to get the goal we needed against Mansfield but it just would not happen. From then to now though, it would take a very brave man to deny the excellent job that Clarke has done to turn around the rotten culture at the club and restore us back to our natural level. Well done 2nd. A good, balanced concise view of the situation. UTG!
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Apr 19, 2017 9:18:19 GMT
Nick Higgs was responsible for our eventual relegation. He should have backed Penny when he attempted to change the culture of players at the club. A mistake he did not repeat when he decided to back DC when he did the same thing following relegation. While I believe JW would have kept us up, I don't blame DC for taking us down. I do not think the club culture would have changed had we not been relegated. I think a lot of things we did not want to face were forced on us. Contracts, the sense of entitlement, failure to look at players on the way up, not Billy big bollox looking for a pay day. It also galvanized and united the fan base massively which again played a big part in our success. Finally, winning becomes a habit. Clearly, facing a lower quality of opposition week in week out also helps build momentum and allows the team to gain confidence. I think relegation was the making of the club. An excellent, balanced view to which I mostly subscribe. It is possible to say in one breath that part of the blame has to lie with DC for our relegation and yet in another that he went on to change the culture of the club and transform our futures. That is in no way contradictory. Whether by luck or judgement, Higgs ended up appointing the right man and he deserves credit for sticking by him when many wouldn't have done. Yeah, Higgs should be at least given credit for finally getting it right and sticking by his man when many were doubting him a few games in to the conference.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 9:55:23 GMT
Can I suggest a communication skills course? Do you give a damn what OTIB think? Why would anyone define what they think or say based on the opinions of people they don't respect? Isn't it evident by the fact we are in a better position now than we were under JW/PB/MM? Or would we have been promoted to league one the following year? All if, buts and maybe's at the end of the day but we can all say what we like, regardless of needlessly aggressive sweary ranting. Well your view seems to be that had we not been relegated then DC wouldn't have known how to rebuild the squad / club. Personally I don't see any evidence to support that view. The FACT shows we were relegated because of one point hardly the doomed, inevitable position carp you are peddling. Perhaps a less binary view on the world may help you? Oh f**k off you frustrated malcontent. If we are just doing "you're tallking crap mate" then I can do that too. Try to resolve your arguments without battering down your opponents as I can't be arsed to discuss this you further unless you stop slating others views as "crap". You're arguing your points like a building site bully.
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Post by 2nd May 1990 on Apr 19, 2017 9:59:03 GMT
By the way, does anyone know if Ward was present at either of the Walsall games this season? I'd like to think he would get a good reception from fans now we have got ourselves back to league 1, and I hope he hasn't felt the need to stay away. He never had his say after we got relegated and I suspect that whole period of time leaves a sour taste for him.
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 19, 2017 11:00:27 GMT
Yep 3 points above relegation is incredibly better than relegated (even Sh1!heads understand that). Surely if DC wasn't responsible for relegation then neither was Dave Penny (sorry I know you struggle to logically form an argument)? Nick Higgs was responsible for our eventual relegation. He should have backed Penny when he attempted to change the culture of players at the club. A mistake he did not repeat when he decided to back DC when he did the same thing following relegation. While I believe JW would have kept us up, I don't blame DC for taking us down.
I do not think the club culture would have changed had we not been relegated. I think a lot of things we did not want to face were forced on us. Contracts, the sense of entitlement, failure to look at players on the way up, not Billy big bollox looking for a pay day. It also galvanized and united the fan base massively which again played a big part in our success. Finally, winning becomes a habit. Clearly, facing a lower quality of opposition week in week out also helps build momentum and allows the team to gain confidence. I think relegation was the making of the club. Came to this thread late but I agree totally with that sentiment. The season before in the last few months under McGhee we were worse than we were in the season we went down imo, without the final day. Ward saved us that season to such an extent that in early/mid March some were talking about a late play off charge that finished at Bradford with a 1-4 defeat. Despite that 13/14 season I will always respect John Ward but wish he had done something when it was so obvious about our totally c*** attack. The Eliot Richards / Alan Gow situation just about summed up the whole season. That the back 5, apart from Michael Smith, was more or less the same group that went down, got promoted, got promoted shows that John Ward got some things right. You and 2nd May sum up the situation really well Hugo. I've always thought that had we avoided relegation then DC would still have done what he did, have a massive clear out and perhaps have been as successful only a bit earlier but you may well be right about the relegation forcing a change in the culture at the club. And whatever anyone says now, the past three years have been great and DC deserves all the credit he receives. Regarding where the fault lies I'm not sure you can say with certainty. The board have to take the major share in that we had years of little planning, no investment and poor recruitment both player and manager. Ward was one of the better choices imo. But in the back end of 2014 circumstances went totally against us, Eliot Richards going on loan with no call back, JJOT going public, team spirit then dropping below the scale, the injury to Michael Smith at Pompey and Lee B just before the Mansfield match all conspired against us. Had JW stayed I think we would have limped over the line but I don't blame DC but I bet he might have done things a bit differently with hindsight but it doesn't matter now. But I also subscribe to the saying sh** happens and you just get on with it and it certainly did on that Mansfield afternoon. UTG!
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Apr 19, 2017 11:46:05 GMT
Again, I feel odd defending Nick,but investment in the team and wage budget is the one area you can't really fault him on.
If anything, he was too free spending or easily led by crap managers too keen to waste his generous budget.
Nick always backed his managers.
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Post by baggins on Apr 19, 2017 12:02:36 GMT
Again, I feel odd defending Nick,but investment in the team and wage budget is the one area you can't really fault him on. If anything, he was too free spending or easily led by crap managers too keen to waste his generous budget. Nick always backed his managers. Yep.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 12:13:39 GMT
Yep 3 points above relegation is incredibly better than relegated (even Sh1!heads understand that). Surely if DC wasn't responsible for relegation then neither was Dave Penny (sorry I know you struggle to logically form an argument)? Nick Higgs was responsible for our eventual relegation. He should have backed Penny when he attempted to change the culture of players at the club. A mistake he did not repeat when he decided to back DC when he did the same thing following relegation. While I believe JW would have kept us up, I don't blame DC for taking us down.I do not think the club culture would have changed had we not been relegated. I think a lot of things we did not want to face were forced on us. Contracts, the sense of entitlement, failure to look at players on the way up, not Billy big bollox looking for a pay day. It also galvanized and united the fan base massively which again played a big part in our success. Finally, winning becomes a habit. Clearly, facing a lower quality of opposition week in week out also helps build momentum and allows the team to gain confidence. I think relegation was the making of the club. I dont believe Ward would have kept us up, but I do believe both can be blamed for taking us down. DC was Wards no2 for the whole season, helped Ward with decisions, coached players etc. Similar to MS presumably taking some credit for our last 2 promotions? We never did really have a "top to bottom" review as promised when we went down, but I guess being in the Conference allowed us to (eventually) get some morale boosting wins and took that as a springboard. Now its over to the owners who have had a very cushty start to their tenure; now they need to deliver with ground news and help get quality needed on the pitch.
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Post by baggins on Apr 19, 2017 12:30:09 GMT
Feel odd about saying it, but I think promotion again this season would mean bad news.
We're not ready. Nowhere near ready. Our budget wouldn't cope, the Mem wouldn't cope, not sure the inevitable results and instant relegation our fan base would cope (before anyone chips in with our following after relegation to the conference, that's different).
Let the wheels turn regarding the entire club rebuild, look back on a fantastic season, regroup, restructure, go again next season, better, stronger and ready.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 12:36:32 GMT
Feel odd about saying it, but I think promotion again this season would mean bad news. We're not ready. Nowhere near ready. Our budget wouldn't cope, the Mem wouldn't cope, not sure the inevitable results and instant relegation our fan base would cope (before anyone chips in with our following after relegation to the conference, that's different). Let the wheels turn regarding the entire club rebuild, look back on a fantastic season, regroup, restructure, go again next season, better, stronger and ready. Kind of agree but I still want it on principle. Remember how difficult this league was to get out of for god knows how long.....might be worth going for it as chances don't come often. That said, thinking of DC's comments about the Trollope era, I have just remembered what happened the last time the owners "went for it" under Holloway - 15 years of bullshit no less.
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Post by baggins on Apr 19, 2017 12:44:00 GMT
Feel odd about saying it, but I think promotion again this season would mean bad news. We're not ready. Nowhere near ready. Our budget wouldn't cope, the Mem wouldn't cope, not sure the inevitable results and instant relegation our fan base would cope (before anyone chips in with our following after relegation to the conference, that's different). Let the wheels turn regarding the entire club rebuild, look back on a fantastic season, regroup, restructure, go again next season, better, stronger and ready. Kind of agree but I still want it on principle. Remember how difficult this league was to get out of for god knows how long.....might be worth going for it as chances don't come often. That said, thinking of DC's comments about the Trollope era, I have just remembered what happened the last time the owners "went for it" under Holloway - 15 years of bullshit no less. I hear you. Just think it would be better to stay where we are, take a deep breath, recognise our unbelievable achievements for the last 2 years, get our act together and then go for it.
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