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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 2, 2017 11:58:40 GMT
Not exactly Kennedy and Krushchev, are they? Although, Krushchev did bang his shoe on at the table at the UN. Funny you should mention those. The Vietnam war is one I don't have much detailed knowledge of outside of the basics, so have been watching an interesting documentary series on the BBC. In it, it was suggested that Kennedy was looking at distancing himself from the South Vietnamise President due to his heavy handedness, but after the debacle of the Bay of Pigs and the feeling that Krushchev got the better of him at a conference, he felt he had to see it through, otherwise the American people would see it as 3-0 to the Communists. The number of advisors went from the hundreds to something like 11,000. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Oct 2, 2017 12:26:16 GMT
Not exactly Kennedy and Krushchev, are they? Although, Krushchev did bang his shoe on at the table at the UN. Funny you should mention those. The Vietnam war is one I don't have much detailed knowledge of outside of the basics, so have been watching an interesting documentary series on the BBC. In it, it was suggested that Kennedy was looking at distancing himself from the South Vietnamise President due to his heavy handedness, but after the debacle of the Bay of Pigs and the feeling that Krushchev got the better of him at a conference, he felt he had to see it through, otherwise the American people would see it as 3-0 to the Communists. The number of advisors went from the hundreds to something like 11,000. Worth looking into the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Then come back and tell me the US government don't tell outright lies. Conspiracy theory Confirmed. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 2, 2017 12:40:48 GMT
Funny you should mention those. The Vietnam war is one I don't have much detailed knowledge of outside of the basics, so have been watching an interesting documentary series on the BBC. In it, it was suggested that Kennedy was looking at distancing himself from the South Vietnamise President due to his heavy handedness, but after the debacle of the Bay of Pigs and the feeling that Krushchev got the better of him at a conference, he felt he had to see it through, otherwise the American people would see it as 3-0 to the Communists. The number of advisors went from the hundreds to something like 11,000. Worth looking into the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Then come back and tell me the US government don't tell outright lies. Conspiracy theory Confirmed. Hopefully it will be covered in tonight's episode (BBC 4 at 10pm if anyone is interested). The US wouldn't be the first to manufacture a casus belli and unfortunately won't be the last either. Note to Pirate - we are aware of the Isreali incidents such as the Six Day war and the various Lebanon conflicts. Thank you in advance. |
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Post by inee on Oct 2, 2017 15:18:47 GMT
Will watch that if i remember, the Vietnam fascinates me as it has to be one of the most f**ked up conflicts in history , it's also imo the turning point in the way media had access to the front line.
I always thought the conflict went back to when the french pulled out.
Pirate undoubtedly the jews had a hand in it however ,don't forget the jesuits have had more influence on worldwide death and destruction than the jews could muster
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 2, 2017 15:38:28 GMT
Will watch that if i remember, the Vietnam fascinates me as it has to be one of the most f**ked up conflicts in history , it's also imo the turning point in the way media had access to the front line. I always thought the conflict went back to when the french pulled out. Pirate undoubtedly the jews had a hand in it however ,don't forget the jesuits have had more influence on worldwide death and destruction than the jews could muster If you do get to watch it I would recommend episode 1 whilst it is still on iPlayer, as this puts into context the backdrop of French rule and how the US saw it as a Cold War conflict against Communism rather than a fight to overthrow a colonial ruler. France's desire to regain the upper hand led to the defeat in Dien Bien Phu and how it emboldened Ho Chi Min and some of the more belligerent elements. Can't yet see anything too controversial but would appreciate anyone's input in terms of balanced analysis. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Oct 2, 2017 16:16:20 GMT
Pretty sure Vietnam was one of the first "unpopular" wars if that makes sense.
Interesting to see how much Hollywood rewriting of history has gone on too.
The US really did f**k up and the way they treated returning soldiers was appalling.
Funnily enough First Blood was a pretty good representation of how vets were forgotten about and just moved on.
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Post by aghast on Oct 2, 2017 16:35:04 GMT
Pretty sure Vietnam was one of the first "unpopular" wars if that makes sense. Interesting to see how much Hollywood rewriting of history has gone on too. The US really did f**k up and the way they treated returning soldiers was appalling. Funnily enough First Blood was a pretty good representation of how vets were forgotten about and just moved on. As was Born on the Fourth of July. |
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Post by inee on Oct 2, 2017 17:03:20 GMT
As is the deer hunter, apocalypse now is also a goods film.
Hugo one of the reason Vietnam was so unpopular ,was it was the first war where the press had a freehand ,extensive use of napalm (did you know Bristol had a napalm factory) agent orange,allowed those back home and world wide to see almost in real time what was going on ,also dont forget the cia's role in experimenting on troops with lsd and other drugs.
I'm surprised that they tried drugs on the troops as The 3rd Reich used methamphetamine on their troops ,which also failed miserably.
Another factor was one of ho chi mins statements, he said something along the lines of for every 10 of us you kill we will kill one of you,it will be you who soon tires. then there was the so called ho chi min trail, also the nv crossing into cambodia ,where the yanks could not follow ,an enemy that was everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
As an aside the dead kennedy's wrote a good song about the aftermath of vietnam called the chicken farm worth a listen
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 2, 2017 18:39:12 GMT
Pretty sure Vietnam was one of the first "unpopular" wars if that makes sense. Interesting to see how much Hollywood rewriting of history has gone on too. The US really did f**k up and the way they treated returning soldiers was appalling. Funnily enough First Blood was a pretty good representation of how vets were forgotten about and just moved on. I understand what you mean by unpopular, although that is something i would argue would also include the American War of independence, War of 1812, Crimea and the first Boer War. Interesting how the press were more controlled in the Falklands (Thatcher is said to have wanted to learn the lessons of Vietnam, plus circumstances made it harder to publish material) and the First Gulf War in 1990/91. As for Hollywood, their historical films are appalling in general. Vietnam-wise, I think The Green Berets was made by John Wayne because he kept out of the Second World War to further his film career whilst other 'names' joined up and he had guilt which he tried to make up for with his film making afterwards. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 2, 2017 18:41:43 GMT
As is the deer hunter, apocalypse now is also a goods film. Hugo one of the reason Vietnam was so unpopular ,was it was the first war where the press had a freehand ,extensive use of napalm (did you know Bristol had a napalm factory) agent orange,allowed those back home and world wide to see almost in real time what was going on ,also dont forget the cia's role in experimenting on troops with lsd and other drugs. I'm surprised that they tried drugs on the troops as The 3rd Reich used methamphetamine on their troops ,which also failed miserably. Another factor was one of ho chi mins statements, he said something along the lines of for every 10 of us you kill we will kill one of you,it will be you who soon tires. then there was the so called ho chi min trail, also the nv crossing into cambodia ,where the yanks could not follow ,an enemy that was everywhere and nowhere at the same time. As an aside the dead kennedy's wrote a good song about the aftermath of vietnam called the chicken farm worth a listen The other, possibly apocryphal, quote between a US officer and an NVA officer along the lines of 'You know you never beat us in combat?' to which the response was 'Yes, but that is irrelevant.' |
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Post by aghast on Oct 2, 2017 19:21:24 GMT
Will watch that if i remember, the Vietnam fascinates me as it has to be one of the most f**ked up conflicts in history , it's also imo the turning point in the way media had access to the front line. I always thought the conflict went back to when the french pulled out. Pirate undoubtedly the jews had a hand in it however ,don't forget the jesuits have had more influence on worldwide death and destruction than the jews could muster If you do get to watch it I would recommend episode 1 whilst it is still on iPlayer, as this puts into context the backdrop of French rule and how the US saw it as a Cold War conflict against Communism rather than a fight to overthrow a colonial ruler. France's desire to regain the upper hand led to the defeat in Dien Bien Phu and how it emboldened Ho Chi Min and some of the more belligerent elements. Can't yet see anything too controversial but would appreciate anyone's input in terms of balanced analysis. I've just watched part 1 on iPlayer and it was really interesting. Seems to be an even-handed treatment of the background as far as I can tell. On to part 2 now... |
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Post by inee on Oct 16, 2017 17:44:15 GMT
As is the deer hunter, apocalypse now is also a goods film. Hugo one of the reason Vietnam was so unpopular ,was it was the first war where the press had a freehand ,extensive use of napalm (did you know Bristol had a napalm factory) agent orange,allowed those back home and world wide to see almost in real time what was going on ,also dont forget the cia's role in experimenting on troops with lsd and other drugs. I'm surprised that they tried drugs on the troops as The 3rd Reich used methamphetamine on their troops ,which also failed miserably. Another factor was one of ho chi mins statements, he said something along the lines of for every 10 of us you kill we will kill one of you,it will be you who soon tires. then there was the so called ho chi min trail, also the nv crossing into cambodia ,where the yanks could not follow ,an enemy that was everywhere and nowhere at the same time. As an aside the dead kennedy's wrote a good song about the aftermath of vietnam called the chicken farm worth a listen The other, possibly apocryphal, quote between a US officer and an NVA officer along the lines of 'You know you never beat us in combat?' to which the response was 'Yes, but that is irrelevant.' Just remembered have a google about Apocalypse now apparently the filming of the film was just as chaotic as the war itself |
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 17, 2017 10:01:14 GMT
The other, possibly apocryphal, quote between a US officer and an NVA officer along the lines of 'You know you never beat us in combat?' to which the response was 'Yes, but that is irrelevant.' Just remembered have a google about Apocalypse now apparently the filming of the film was just as chaotic as the war itself At the risk of further thread derailing, didn't Donald Sutherland suffer from jaundice whilst you filming Kelly's Heroes? It added to his character though. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 17, 2017 10:06:28 GMT
If you do get to watch it I would recommend episode 1 whilst it is still on iPlayer, as this puts into context the backdrop of French rule and how the US saw it as a Cold War conflict against Communism rather than a fight to overthrow a colonial ruler. France's desire to regain the upper hand led to the defeat in Dien Bien Phu and how it emboldened Ho Chi Min and some of the more belligerent elements. Can't yet see anything too controversial but would appreciate anyone's input in terms of balanced analysis. I've just watched part 1 on iPlayer and it was really interesting. Seems to be an even-handed treatment of the background as far as I can tell. On to part 2 now... Are you still watching it? Just two more episodes left next week. Finding it really facinating and it has fillied in a few gaps. |
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Post by aghast on Oct 17, 2017 12:24:07 GMT
I've just watched part 1 on iPlayer and it was really interesting. Seems to be an even-handed treatment of the background as far as I can tell. On to part 2 now... Are you still watching it? Just two more episodes left next week. Finding it really facinating and it has fillied in a few gaps. Yes I've watched all 6 episodes so far, and would highly recommend it to anyone. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 17, 2017 12:55:50 GMT
Certainly would, there is an interview with the producers if anyone wants to see their reasonings for making it.
It seems from what I have read it has been well received and regarded as being as balanced it this could be.
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Post by aghast on Oct 17, 2017 19:01:28 GMT
There's stuff in episode 7 I didn't know about before, like Nixon contacting the South Vietnamese government just before the 1968 election, asking them to withdraw from peace talks in return for a promise to continue the bombing of the North.
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 23, 2017 22:22:18 GMT
Returning to the OP, I see that Shinzo Abe has been returned as PM of Japan with a mandate to get tough on North Korea. He has been looking to amend the Constitution to allow a more assertive use of Japan's forces if needed for somtime and this may be his chance.
Apparently Tokyo does not have any contact with North Korea and ties with China remain poor so a diplomatic move via the US will still be needed.
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 31, 2017 23:32:46 GMT
There's stuff in episode 7 I didn't know about before, like Nixon contacting the South Vietnamese government just before the 1968 election, asking them to withdraw from peace talks in return for a promise to continue the bombing of the North. Just caught up from last week's episodes. I didn't realise quite how prominant John Kerry was, great soeech. Also the scene with the verterens throwing their medals away was very poignant. Overall I really enjoyed the series and feel I genuinely understand it better. |
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