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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 8:49:58 GMT
Stuart
" Experts don't know the future and neither do the laymen such as us. With a bit of research it can be narrowed down to unlikely, possible and probable. I have tried to explain my reasonings why I think the ecomomic damage of a no deal or WTO result more than outweighs the sovereignty issues. I have yet to really see a compelling economic arguement for it (£10pm VAT savings on fuel or slightly cheaper US trainers doesn't do it for me, sorry Nobby). Nor do I feel the democratic deficit is as bad as some suggest."
Exactly. Although Al and others lurking in the wings would claim this is not "reality"
The fundamental point was, and remains, that the economic argument for leaving was not made.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 8:55:02 GMT
Stuart " Experts don't know the future and neither do the laymen such as us. With a bit of research it can be narrowed down to unlikely, possible and probable. I have tried to explain my reasonings why I think the ecomomic damage of a no deal or WTO result more than outweighs the sovereignty issues. I have yet to really see a compelling economic arguement for it (£10pm VAT savings on fuel or slightly cheaper US trainers doesn't do it for me, sorry Nobby). Nor do I feel the democratic deficit is as bad as some suggest." Exactly. Although Al and others lurking in the wings would claim this is not "reality" The fundamental point was, and remains, that the economic argument for leaving was not made. The fundamental point was, and remains, that the reason for leaving the EU is not just about economics. If it were still just a Common Market, then nobody would be complaining.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 8:57:16 GMT
Stuart " Experts don't know the future and neither do the laymen such as us. With a bit of research it can be narrowed down to unlikely, possible and probable. I have tried to explain my reasonings why I think the ecomomic damage of a no deal or WTO result more than outweighs the sovereignty issues. I have yet to really see a compelling economic arguement for it (£10pm VAT savings on fuel or slightly cheaper US trainers doesn't do it for me, sorry Nobby). Nor do I feel the democratic deficit is as bad as some suggest." Exactly. Although Al and others lurking in the wings would claim this is not "reality" The fundamental point was, and remains, that the economic argument for leaving was not made. The fundamental point was, and remains, that the reason for leaving the EU is not just about economics. If it were still just a Common Market, then nobody would be complaining. The fundamental fact also remains that the argument (s) for any other issues, take your pick, has also not been made.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 9:10:38 GMT
The fundamental point was, and remains, that the reason for leaving the EU is not just about economics. If it were still just a Common Market, then nobody would be complaining. The fundamental fact also remains that the argument (s) for any other issues, take your pick, has also not been made. Because the Remainers are refusing to say what direction the EU is heading? What is the endgame for the EU? I suppose we could look for clues, and if we do we can find out that the EU want a European Superstate ie. United States of Europe. They want to bang heads with other super powers China, USA and Russian, plus up and coming countries like India. Does the World really need another Superpower that bangs heads with the others? Really? Scary stuff this.... EU Empire
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 4, 2019 9:20:09 GMT
The fundamental fact also remains that the argument (s) for any other issues, take your pick, has also not been made. Because the Remainers are refusing to say what direction the EU is heading? What is the endgame for the EU? I suppose we could look for clues, and if we do we can find out that the EU want a European Superstate ie. United States of Europe. They want to bang heads with other super powers China, USA and Russian, plus up and coming countries like India. Does the World really need another Superpower that bangs heads with the others? Really? Scary stuff this.... EU Empire Another Daily Express article? Thought you could do better than that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 9:45:32 GMT
Because the Remainers are refusing to say what direction the EU is heading? What is the endgame for the EU? I suppose we could look for clues, and if we do we can find out that the EU want a European Superstate ie. United States of Europe. They want to bang heads with other super powers China, USA and Russian, plus up and coming countries like India. Does the World really need another Superpower that bangs heads with the others? Really? Scary stuff this.... EU Empire Another Daily Express article? Thought you could do better than that. How about the FT, is that ok? Or Handelsblatt "The European Union should become “a peaceful empire” in order to stand up to China and the US, Le Maire argued. And although thanks to their wartime history, some Germans may find his talk of empire unattractive, Le Maire explains that, “I am using this phrase because, in tomorrow’s world, it’s going to be all about power ... technological power, economic, financial, monetary, cultural power – all will be decisive. Europe cannot be shy any longer about using its power.” HandelsblattFT
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 4, 2019 9:55:21 GMT
Another Daily Express article? Thought you could do better than that. How about the FT, is that ok? FT Subscripton needed 😎 The point being is that whatever is said or realistic likelihood of happening (GV is only one cog in a very large mechanism which includes many checks and balances), the Daily Express has an agenda and will write their own narrative (as will others, of course). What GV wants isn't necessarily what he will do or get. Remember our own electioneering. In terms of the topic, I think the world will coalesce around trade blocs, of which China and the US are also nations. Some African and South Anerican countries will follow the EU in forming blocs. It doesn't mean one homogenous country but shared sovereignty.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 10:04:17 GMT
How about the FT, is that ok? FT Subscripton needed 😎 The point being is that whatever is said or realistic likelihood of happening (GV is only one cog in a very large mechanism which includes many checks and balances), the Daily Express has an agenda and will write their own narrative (as will others, of course). What GV wants isn't necessarily what he will do or get. Remember our own electioneering. In terms of the topic, I think the world will coalesce around trade blocs, of which China and the US are also nations. Some African and South Anerican countries will follow the EU in forming blocs. It doesn't mean one homogenous country but shared sovereignty. So basically Stuart, its newspaper headlines, not a coherent argument?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 10:07:56 GMT
Subscripton needed 😎 The point being is that whatever is said or realistic likelihood of happening (GV is only one cog in a very large mechanism which includes many checks and balances), the Daily Express has an agenda and will write their own narrative (as will others, of course). What GV wants isn't necessarily what he will do or get. Remember our own electioneering. In terms of the topic, I think the world will coalesce around trade blocs, of which China and the US are also nations. Some African and South Anerican countries will follow the EU in forming blocs. It doesn't mean one homogenous country but shared sovereignty. So basically Stuart, its newspaper headlines, not a coherent argument? No, it's the same basic narrative being spoken about by multiple people. Just Google 'EU Empire' and you'll find a lot of sources. Open your eyes and mind Oldie.
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Post by peterparker on Jun 4, 2019 10:13:38 GMT
So the is the argument for... we are going for an Isolationist policy or just a poxy island policy
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 4, 2019 10:15:32 GMT
So the is the argument for... we are going for an Isolationist policy or just a poxy island policy Squeezed out by the bigger boys.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 10:19:19 GMT
So the is the argument for... we are going for an Isolationist policy or just a poxy island policy Not an Isolationist Policy, who on earth has said that? Nor a Poxy Island Policy. I don't think that historically the UK could ever be called a Poxy Island. Just not part of the European Federal Superstate.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 10:21:09 GMT
So the is the argument for... we are going for an Isolationist policy or just a poxy island policy Squeezed out by the bigger boys. Historically, the European bigger boys tend to fight a lot amongst themselves. As always, it's best to stay out of it, unless we have to go and clear up the mess again, as we have been doing since the times of Napoleon.
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 4, 2019 10:25:59 GMT
Squeezed out by the bigger boys. Historically, the European bigger boys tend to fight a lot amongst themselves. As always, it's best to stay out of it, unless we have to go and clear up the mess again, as we have been doing since the times of Napoleon. The world has moved on a bit since then.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 10:27:57 GMT
Because the Remainers are refusing to say what direction the EU is heading? What is the endgame for the EU? I suppose we could look for clues, and if we do we can find out that the EU want a European Superstate ie. United States of Europe. They want to bang heads with other super powers China, USA and Russian, plus up and coming countries like India. Does the World really need another Superpower that bangs heads with the others? Really? Scary stuff this.... EU Empire Another Daily Express article? Thought you could do better than that. How many Guardian links have been posted in these 334 pages? ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 10:34:21 GMT
Historically, the European bigger boys tend to fight a lot amongst themselves. As always, it's best to stay out of it, unless we have to go and clear up the mess again, as we have been doing since the times of Napoleon. The world has moved on a bit since then. The Balkans?
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 4, 2019 10:34:36 GMT
Another Daily Express article? Thought you could do better than that. How many Guardian links have been posted in these 334 pages? ? How many of those have I taken seriously? The Express is more like the Mirror, Guardian more like the Times. Either way, I would suggest always reading things in context and look for the hidden meaning behind the article. Most media, including MSM and independent ones have bias.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 10:35:55 GMT
How many Guardian links have been posted in these 334 pages? ? How many of those have I taken seriously? The Express is more like the Mirror, Guardian more like the Times. Either way, I would suggest always reading things in context and look for the hidden meaning behind the article. Most media, including MSM and independent ones have bias. I also posted links to the FT and Handelsblatt...there are too many links out there to post them all, but they all contain the same narrative, from multiple sources.
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 4, 2019 10:37:31 GMT
The world has moved on a bit since then. The Balkans? If you are talking armed conflict then I suspect NATO may be the one involved. Presumably you are still an advocate of membership or do you think we should withdrawal?
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 4, 2019 10:38:59 GMT
How many of those have I taken seriously? The Express is more like the Mirror, Guardian more like the Times. Either way, I would suggest always reading things in context and look for the hidden meaning behind the article. Most media, including MSM and independent ones have bias. I also posted links to the FT and Handelsblatt...there are too many links out there to post them all, but they all contain the same narrative, from multiple sources. Not at the time I responded. But my point about the electioneering still stands, as does the checks and balances.
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