Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2018 10:19:59 GMT
Sure, of course. But you linked it Al, to the topic title, not us. Yes I can understand my part in it, but the purpose of the opening post was to give an example of how influential people can put completely unjustified guilt onto others. That's why I gave another example which happened to be religious.Of course parents can be influential to their children and can do much the same thing. Shame imo is a massively negative feeling, (are you truly ashamed about the slave trade Oldie because you happened to be born in Bristol?) and when placed upon innocent people, for me, it corrupts society. I work with a German girl who is lovely but she has had complete strangers give her abuse because of Hitler and the war, she is 23, wtf? My attitude for what it's worth is that we are all individuals and therefore only responsible for our behaviour not other people's. So for me it's not George the Jamaican, Jana the German or Oldie the Bristolian, it's George, Jana and Oldie. Yes I am ashamed of the slave trade, and I recognise that Bristol benefited hugely from the profits. In much the same way I am ashamed of our actions under the guise of the "British Empire". Having been lucky enough to travel extensively in my life I was able to understand a different perspective perhaps. Again, this experience informs my revulsion at petty nationalism, especially from those who confuse patriotism with nationalism. Do I carry a weight of guilt over it, absolutely not. Better to act in the present and confront ignorant nationalism than dwell on something I cannot change. In terms of guilt in the broader context, I am not sure I agree with you. Religion is dead in economically developed countries, whenever I hear of or witness a child suffering from a lack of confidence or similar, I look first at the parents. Every time. |
|
|
|
Post by aghast on Oct 13, 2018 20:15:13 GMT
It's a difficult issue and I have no answers..
There are extremes, like Hitler, where almost everyone would agree that statues and buildings in his name should have been pulled down or renamed,
But for someone like Colston, living almost 300 years ago in a totally different culture, how can you judge him? He donated a lot of money to Bristol schools and hospitals, and made many out of a trade that was not seen then as immoral.
|
|
stuart1974
Proper Gas
Posts: 12,548 
Member is Online
|
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 13, 2018 21:07:28 GMT
It's a difficult issue and I have no answers.. There are extremes, like Hitler, where almost everyone would agree that statues and buildings in his name should have been pulled down or renamed, But for someone like Colston, living almost 300 years ago in a totally different culture, how can you judge him? He donated a lot of money to Bristol schools and hospitals, and made many out of a trade that was not seen then as immoral. Human beings are complex creatures with no one having a monopoly on good or bad deeds or thoughts. Many thought to be bad had redeeming features and many thought to be good had skeletons in their closets. Personally I would always try and keep things in the context of the day. With Colston I would say he wasn't alone in making money from the slave trade, nor indeed was Bristol or even Britain. Sanitising history does no one any favours, we can't learn from it and it causes more resentment than it intends to solve. I would keep the statue and the existing names associated with him. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2018 23:00:10 GMT
It's a difficult issue and I have no answers.. There are extremes, like Hitler, where almost everyone would agree that statues and buildings in his name should have been pulled down or renamed, But for someone like Colston, living almost 300 years ago in a totally different culture, how can you judge him? He donated a lot of money to Bristol schools and hospitals, and made many out of a trade that was not seen then as immoral. Human beings are complex creatures with no one having a monopoly on good or bad deeds or thoughts. Many thought to be bad had redeeming features and many thought to be good had skeletons in their closets. Personally I would always try and keep things in the context of the day. With Colston I would say he wasn't alone in making money from the slave trade, nor indeed was Bristol or even Britain. Sanitising history does no one any favours, we can't learn from it and it causes more resentment than it intends to solve. I would keep the statue and the existing names associated with him. That's fine. And at the same time tell the kids, educate the kids, we completely effed cultures in Africa, the Indian sub continent and the far East. I wonder what the reaction would be to Colston when we tell them? Similar to Germans and Hitler perhaps? |
|
|
|
Post by althepirate on Oct 14, 2018 2:55:25 GMT
Human beings are complex creatures with no one having a monopoly on good or bad deeds or thoughts. Many thought to be bad had redeeming features and many thought to be good had skeletons in their closets. Personally I would always try and keep things in the context of the day. With Colston I would say he wasn't alone in making money from the slave trade, nor indeed was Bristol or even Britain. Sanitising history does no one any favours, we can't learn from it and it causes more resentment than it intends to solve. I would keep the statue and the existing names associated with him. That's fine. And at the same time tell the kids, educate the kids, we completely effed cultures in Africa, the Indian sub continent and the far East. I wonder what the reaction would be to Colston when we tell them? Similar to Germans and Hitler perhaps? WE didn't Oldie, THEY did. This is my point. |
|
stuart1974
Proper Gas
Posts: 12,548
Member is Online
|
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 14, 2018 10:15:55 GMT
Human beings are complex creatures with no one having a monopoly on good or bad deeds or thoughts. Many thought to be bad had redeeming features and many thought to be good had skeletons in their closets. Personally I would always try and keep things in the context of the day. With Colston I would say he wasn't alone in making money from the slave trade, nor indeed was Bristol or even Britain. Sanitising history does no one any favours, we can't learn from it and it causes more resentment than it intends to solve. I would keep the statue and the existing names associated with him. That's fine. And at the same time tell the kids, educate the kids, we completely effed cultures in Africa, the Indian sub continent and the far East. I wonder what the reaction would be to Colston when we tell them? Similar to Germans and Hitler perhaps? I thought you wanted to keep this to Colston rather than widen debate to the slave trade and Empire? If you do want to widen it you need to include other statues such an Cromwell, Churchill, various monarchs too. Not forgetting other monuments to people as diverse as Michael Collins in Ireland or William Wallace in Stirling. We made many mistakes during the empire, but so did Spain, France, Germany and especially Belgium. Japan, China, and so on. What I don't like is the continued self flagellation and collective guilt for the current and future generations over things we had no control. We need to move on and resolve issues here and now, right some injustices when we can and help those around today. Whilst the statue stays in situ, it remains a point of reference for keeping the topic alive. Perhaps move it next to Piro's Bridge, nice symmetry. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 11:03:08 GMT
That's fine. And at the same time tell the kids, educate the kids, we completely effed cultures in Africa, the Indian sub continent and the far East. I wonder what the reaction would be to Colston when we tell them? Similar to Germans and Hitler perhaps? WE didn't Oldie, THEY did. This is my point. You are right they did. And, I am in broad agreement with Stuart. But whether we keep it to Colston, or make it a more general theme, the thing for me is, what do we teach our kids?. Regardless of what other countries have done, or what they do now, do we honestly teach them the truth?. I would have the Colston statue to be a catalyst in Bristol for a much broader discussion. People, even Stuart, say this happened 2 or 3 centuries ago, which is true. But has history been taught? Do our kids understand, for example, that the fundamental cause of the chaos in the Middle East is not Islam, but the carve up by the UK and France after WW1?. No of course not, they are not taught that. I could go on, but that's my point. The Colston issue is a minor point within a much broader context. |
|
|
|
Post by althepirate on Oct 14, 2018 14:55:37 GMT
Yes Oldie, I guess its the fear of reprisals why the truth isn't taught. There are many people on this planet who would feel it was completely justified to kill innocent people through terrorism because of something our forefathers had done many years ago.
|
|
stuart1974
Proper Gas
Posts: 12,548
Member is Online
|
Post by stuart1974 on Oct 14, 2018 16:26:40 GMT
Yes Oldie, I guess its the fear of reprisals why the truth isn't taught. There are many people on this planet who would feel it was completely justified to kill innocent people through terrorism because of something our forefathers had done many years ago. Problem is, if "we" don't tell them then someone with an agenda against us will decide what the story is. Have you watched Charlie Wilson's war? |
|
|
|
Post by althepirate on Oct 14, 2018 18:36:00 GMT
...but more people that know the truth, more hostility?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2018 19:12:12 GMT
Yes Oldie, I guess its the fear of reprisals why the truth isn't taught. There are many people on this planet who would feel it was completely justified to kill innocent people through terrorism because of something our forefathers had done many years ago. Al You don't believe that the kids in the countries that suffered from violent imperialism are not taught about their own history, or their version of it? Of course they are. It's our kids, here in the UK, who are not. Not teaching them doesn't create terrorist reprisals. No what it does do is to give rise to ignorant nationalism because they have no idea of cause and effect. As recently as 2003 we were invading Iraq. Why?? Oil. The vile regime in Saudi Arabia suffers no such reprisal, why? What do we teach our kids about that little event? You see, this repetitive denial of history, this lack of teaching, leads to.....repetition. Finally, just look at some of the comments on here spouting off about patriotism and best for the country. If you ever needed proof. |
|
|
|
Post by althepirate on Oct 14, 2018 20:36:36 GMT
Yes Oldie, I guess its the fear of reprisals why the truth isn't taught. There are many people on this planet who would feel it was completely justified to kill innocent people through terrorism because of something our forefathers had done many years ago. Al You don't believe that the kids in the countries that suffered from violent imperialism are not taught about their own history, or their version of it? Of course they are. It's our kids, here in the UK, who are not. Not teaching them doesn't create terrorist reprisals. No what it does do is to give rise to ignorant nationalism because they have no idea of cause and effect. As recently as 2003 we were invading Iraq. Why?? Oil. The vile regime in Saudi Arabia suffers no such reprisal, why? What do we teach our kids about that little event? You see, this repetitive denial of history, this lack of teaching, leads to.....repetition. Finally, just look at some of the comments on here spouting off about patriotism and best for the country. If you ever needed proof. Yes Oldie there is so much hypocrisy and lies in this country, whether it's more or less than other countries I don't know. May with her 'no magic money tree' but she had £1bn to bribe the DUP. That truly finished me with politics. |
|
|
|
Post by inee on Oct 15, 2018 20:34:12 GMT
I genuinely laughed out loud when you two guys interpreted that I said people that self harm do so because of the slave trade. Self harm, unjustified self guilt,nothing to do with the slave trade, bigger picture guys please. glad we agree it's absurd. I'm still not convinced it's about guilt generally. I'm sure some of it is but I imagine most is connected to wider mental health problems that are either due in part to or more likely exacerbated by self-loathing and the notion of worth rather than guilt. Hugos opinion would be useful on that one I recollect from a previous thread. As for the inherited guilt thing I suspect most are like me. I wouldn't celebrate our history but I wouldn't ignore it and if it offends some then let them do what they need to. Pull down the statues if it means a lot to them because I don't care enough to have an opinion on it really. For a lot of people it does boil down to guilt , self loathing at the root can be an extreme form of guilt(maybe you made a promise to someone and it didn't get carried through)ie by that i mean for some who hate themselves often it can be isolated down to something someone felt they did wrong it could be something minor to many but will eat away at others and become a very big issue ,it can also be due to major or various events in their lives, survivors guilt can eat away unseen in many ,prescribed happy pills can also cause self harm as in someone they drain away any feelings people have so in order to feel alive or normal(whatever normal is) people cut ,punch themselves etc ,just to feel pain as if we feel pain we are alive right. |
|
|
|
Post by inee on Oct 15, 2018 21:27:19 GMT
and let's also show a bit of pride in the fact it was the British who were the prime movers in ending the slave trade, as it was then. Yeah maybe Its just that Colston phenomena was very specifically Bristolian. Not sure the abolition was? There was a woman from Bristol along with a few other non Bristolians ,who convinced Wilberforce to take up the fight to end slavery to parliament , i remember this because theres a school named after her in Bristol |
|
