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Post by rovers5charlton5 on Mar 29, 2020 12:06:40 GMT
£23m in debt and you still have to stand on a sh**ty terrace and wade through 4 inches of water to go to the toilet. This is all going to end badly. Crowds over the next 10 years will decline. You only have to look at the number of supporters at the mem who are 65+ to realise that. It's barely an inch, please don't exaggerate!
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Post by singupgas on Mar 29, 2020 12:14:53 GMT
As I have stated before, and some of you have mentioned on this thread, the only way of reducing the debt in any significant way, is players sales, and a team of kids next season being paid peanuts. Selling of players means other clubs need the money to buy them. No one is getting income at the moment because of this bloody disease. As for a far younger cheaper team, still no go as no football at the moment. Where does all this leave us? Either a new buyer 🤞🤞🤞or a cash injection from Wael if he has the funds. The club owes money to the people who own it. All we can do is hope Wael doesn't decide to burry the club 6ft under. So alot of it is down to Wael integrity. What would be big statement for us fans is Wael actually sat the debts are written off. Struggling to see a new buyer coming in, as much I would like someone to come in, actually deliver new stadium and training ground, hard to believe it will ever happen.
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Post by chilly1883 on Mar 29, 2020 12:18:12 GMT
Hiring people, to find overseas talent, clearly didn’t work. I can remember a video, posted by the club, stating, we were actively sending scouts overseas. He obviously didn’t last long, but my point is, another complete waste of money.
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Post by knowall on Mar 29, 2020 12:18:16 GMT
Does anyone know if our level of debt is unusual? I mean actually know rather than speculating/make needless barbed comments/telling us all we're doomed etc etc. Not in the slightest. Some on here just seem to love getting in a flap over it. I don't think it helps to see that we owe three times our annual turnover.
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Post by Topper Gas on Mar 29, 2020 13:21:19 GMT
Hiring people, to find overseas talent, clearly didn’t work. I can remember a video, posted by the club, stating, we were actively sending scouts overseas. He obviously didn’t last long, but my point is, another complete waste of money. Easy to say after the event but did you post at the time it was going to be a waste of money? Although asking a foreign scout to report back on players is hardly likely to have cost a lot, plus we somehow found JVS in Holland.
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Post by gasincider on Mar 29, 2020 15:12:27 GMT
I think we all need to assess exactly where we are.
Well over £20m in debt two thirds of which have accumulated under current owners.
Training ground growing grass bought by present owners.
Incoming, we were told new stadium and funding not a problem as reported by current owners.
Owners enacting internecine warfare with the rest of the board.
Remaining board are Chelsea and Plymouth fans.
So who do we blame? Obviously Ken and Steve H. For Christ sake wake up and smell the coffee. Topper says I'm just against our present owners. Too bloody right. Why aren't you in light of the foregoing?
We desperately need new owners. I've seen some on here saying how nice Wael is. Well, even if you believe it, I fail to see how that makes him a good sensible owner.
Not long ago, a prospective buyer was looking to buy us and build a stadium. Hurry up please .
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Post by swissgas on Mar 29, 2020 16:00:53 GMT
In the past I’ve been a critic of the way Gasincider and knowall have presented their case but before replying to Gasincider’s post I’d suggest you slowly and thoroughly read Wael’s statement again. Try to forget that you think Wael is a “nice bloke” and read the statement as though this was the owner of the company you work for trying to reassure you that your job and income was safe.
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Post by Topper Gas on Mar 29, 2020 16:27:05 GMT
I think we all need to assess exactly where we are. Well over £20m in debt two thirds of which have accumulated under current owners. Training ground growing grass bought by present owners. Incoming, we were told new stadium and funding not a problem as reported by current owners. Owners enacting internecine warfare with the rest of the board. Remaining board are Chelsea and Plymouth fans. So who do we blame? Obviously Ken and Steve H. For Christ sake wake up and smell the coffee. Topper says I'm just against our present owners. Too bloody right. Why aren't you in light of the foregoing? We desperately need new owners. I've seen some on here saying how nice Wael is. Well, even if you believe it, I fail to see how that makes him a good sensible owner. Not long ago, a prospective buyer was looking to buy us and build a stadium. Hurry up please . In the past I’ve been a critic of the way Gasincider and knowall have presented their case but before replying to Gasincider’s post I’d suggest you slowly and thoroughly read Wael’s statement again. Try to forget that you think Wael is a “nice bloke” and read the statement as though this was the owner of the company you work for trying to reassure you that your job and income was safe. So what are your solutions to the issues, are you both going to form a group to attempt to buy the club, if so, where is your financial backing to do it going to come from? As far as my work is concerned I'm in a similar situation there, if the company goes bust then there's little I can do to stop it and I certainly don't have the finances to try and save the company. If I lose my job I'll just have to find a new one, it's same if Rovers go bump, I'll just have to find something else to do on Saturday/Tuesday evening. All you both do, along with Knowall, is continue to post that you have concerns over the way Wael is running the club, but offer no solutions. How do you think this is helping the club, at what is a difficult time, CV wise? About the only benefit you can all achieve is to post "I did try and warn you" if the worse ever happens, i can't see what else you are hoping to achieve we all no finances are grim we just have to hope Wael can keep them under control.
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Post by glengas on Mar 29, 2020 17:03:58 GMT
I didn't say anyone was squeaky clean. I pointed out the fact that Ken and SH were not involved in the financial aspects of the club since the board meeting of March 2019. As a regular talker out of your rear, try reading before commenting. As for the spending on players, that was ALWAYS Wael and DC. Nobody else had a say in it. Wael stated as much at an AGM. Any need to get abusive I was asked to apologise last week after saying far less? As I understand SH was directly involved in Nichols signing, are you claiming that he wasn't and it was all agreed by Wael and DC, although I thought these accounts were for the financial year ending in 2019 when both KM & SH were still involved, anyway do you really believe KM had any say in the club's finances? It's just your usual anti ALQ ranting but offering no solutions. So Topper are you ignoring the money DC brought into the club through his transfer dealings? I’m amazed when people blame him for all our financial woes. When do the people at the top who set the budgets actually shoulder some responsibility? . The issue seems to be wages/contracts i.e. Bennetts £4.5K/3.5 year contract not transfer fees income? Wael appears to have employed SH & DC to run the club, I can't recall either ever raising concerns we were over spending, DC was even usually whining about lack of funds. Wael has to take the ultimate blame, he's clearly doing that out of his bank balance, my point was SH & DC are not totally innocent as being portrait. Problem is certain posters have a clear agenda against Wael but offer no real solutions. If they do have a one then why not post it on here so we can all see what it is? I won't hold my breath as I doubt Gasincider can even afford a decent haircut let alone organise a buy out of the ALQ's. DC operated under the FFP rules that all our managers have had to abide by. He wasn’t given a massive unsustainable budget that broke the football club. We sold players at good money and replaced them for a fraction of the price. DC made poor signings the same as every manager who has ran a football club, but the debts at Bristol Rovers are down the owners. They have got us into this position and god knows how they intend to get us out.
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Post by gasincider on Mar 29, 2020 17:33:44 GMT
So what are your solutions to the issues, are you both going to form a group to attempt to buy the club, if so, where is your financial backing to do it going to come from? As far as my work is concerned I'm in a similar situation there, if the company goes bust then there's little I can do to stop it and I certainly don't have the finances to try and save the company. If I lose my job I'll just have to find a new one, it's same if Rovers go bump, I'll just have to find something else to do on Saturday/Tuesday evening. All you both do, along with Knowall, is continue to post that you have concerns over the way Wael is running the club, but offer no solutions. How do you think this is helping the club, at what is a difficult time, CV wise? About the only benefit you can all achieve is to post "I did try and warn you" if the worse ever happens, i can't see what else you are hoping to achieve we all no finances are grim we just have to hope Wael can keep them under control. So what you are saying Topper, is that, unless you have the money to resolve the issues, you mustn't complain about the way our club is being run. That really is a good solution. What you have to understand is that people only moan because they care. What a crass question 'what are your solutions' It's bloody obvious that we need strong sensible leadership. It's also obvious that that is not what we've had for a long time now. We also need to drastically reduce the outpouring of money from our club. The only solution is new leadership and new funding. In other words new owners. Can you truly believe that what is going on now is sustainable? I said at the time that the revamp of the bars was a nice to have, but we were used to it. It didn't stop people attending, so I believe it was a total waste of money. The biggest question i have is, how on earth have the debts tripled in 4 years? What is there to show for it? A nice shiny new stand? NO. Top new players? Don't think so. So where has the money been spent? There is much less detail in these accounts than I can remember before. Oh. The office and standby car in London. That cost £250k + per annum. Of no discernible benefit to the club. A training ground. (Stop laughing). Over a million I believe. To what purpose if it was not going to be developed? MSP loan: well this had to be repaid, so I attach no blame there. Repaying outstanding loans to former directors. Gotta say, I've never heard of total loans being repaid in full on purchase of the club. Think I could have negotiated that one better. Still short by about £8m. Please add to the list if you can think of anything
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 17:45:35 GMT
I think we all need to assess exactly where we are. Well over £20m in debt two thirds of which have accumulated under current owners. Training ground growing grass bought by present owners. Incoming, we were told new stadium and funding not a problem as reported by current owners. Owners enacting internecine warfare with the rest of the board. Remaining board are Chelsea and Plymouth fans. So who do we blame? Obviously Ken and Steve H. For Christ sake wake up and smell the coffee. Topper says I'm just against our present owners. Too bloody right. Why aren't you in light of the foregoing? We desperately need new owners. I've seen some on here saying how nice Wael is. Well, even if you believe it, I fail to see how that makes him a good sensible owner. Not long ago, a prospective buyer was looking to buy us and build a stadium. Hurry up please . In the past I’ve been a critic of the way Gasincider and knowall have presented their case but before replying to Gasincider’s post I’d suggest you slowly and thoroughly read Wael’s statement again. Try to forget that you think Wael is a “nice bloke” and read the statement as though this was the owner of the company you work for trying to reassure you that your job and income was safe. So what are your solutions to the issues, are you both going to form a group to attempt to buy the club, if so, where is your financial backing to do it going to come from? As far as my work is concerned I'm in a similar situation there, if the company goes bust then there's little I can do to stop it and I certainly don't have the finances to try and save the company. If I lose my job I'll just have to find a new one, it's same if Rovers go bump, I'll just have to find something else to do on Saturday/Tuesday evening. All you both do, along with Knowall, is continue to post that you have concerns over the way Wael is running the club, but offer no solutions. How do you think this is helping the club, at what is a difficult time, CV wise? About the only benefit you can all achieve is to post "I did try and warn you" if the worse ever happens, i can't see what else you are hoping to achieve we all no finances are grim we just have to hope Wael can keep them under control. None of us got enough to buy the owners out we are just supporters looking out for the best for BRFC so topper don’t be so silly we can’t find solutions or even suggestions we don’t know the true facts but it don’t look good for our football club do you agree? Waels not going to come out and say we are in a very sad state of affairs now his he when he’s asking people to buy season tickets.
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Post by Topper Gas on Mar 29, 2020 19:46:59 GMT
Any need to get abusive I was asked to apologise last week after saying far less? As I understand SH was directly involved in Nichols signing, are you claiming that he wasn't and it was all agreed by Wael and DC, although I thought these accounts were for the financial year ending in 2019 when both KM & SH were still involved, anyway do you really believe KM had any say in the club's finances? It's just your usual anti ALQ ranting but offering no solutions. The issue seems to be wages/contracts i.e. Bennetts £4.5K/3.5 year contract not transfer fees income? Wael appears to have employed SH & DC to run the club, I can't recall either ever raising concerns we were over spending, DC was even usually whining about lack of funds. Wael has to take the ultimate blame, he's clearly doing that out of his bank balance, my point was SH & DC are not totally innocent as being portrait. Problem is certain posters have a clear agenda against Wael but offer no real solutions. If they do have a one then why not post it on here so we can all see what it is? I won't hold my breath as I doubt Gasincider can even afford a decent haircut let alone organise a buy out of the ALQ's. DC operated under the FFP rules that all our managers have had to abide by. He wasn’t given a massive unsustainable budget that broke the football club. We sold players at good money and replaced them for a fraction of the price. DC made poor signings the same as every manager who has ran a football club, but the debts at Bristol Rovers are down the owners. They have got us into this position and god knows how they intend to get us out. We seem fairly broken to me and these accounts end virtually when DC was shown the door, the accounts don't only cover the playing budget but the whole club, as I said Wael has to take the ultimate blame but who was putting pressure on him to spend, spend, spend?
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Post by Topper Gas on Mar 29, 2020 20:08:25 GMT
So what are your solutions to the issues, are you both going to form a group to attempt to buy the club, if so, where is your financial backing to do it going to come from? As far as my work is concerned I'm in a similar situation there, if the company goes bust then there's little I can do to stop it and I certainly don't have the finances to try and save the company. If I lose my job I'll just have to find a new one, it's same if Rovers go bump, I'll just have to find something else to do on Saturday/Tuesday evening. All you both do, along with Knowall, is continue to post that you have concerns over the way Wael is running the club, but offer no solutions. How do you think this is helping the club, at what is a difficult time, CV wise? About the only benefit you can all achieve is to post "I did try and warn you" if the worse ever happens, i can't see what else you are hoping to achieve we all no finances are grim we just have to hope Wael can keep them under control. So what you are saying Topper, is that, unless you have the money to resolve the issues, you mustn't complain about the way our club is being run. That really is a good solution. What you have to understand is that people only moan because they care. What a crass question 'what are your solutions' It's bloody obvious that we need strong sensible leadership. It's also obvious that that is not what we've had for a long time now. We also need to drastically reduce the outpouring of money from our club. The only solution is new leadership and new funding. In other words new owners. Can you truly believe that what is going on now is sustainable? I said at the time that the revamp of the bars was a nice to have, but we were used to it. It didn't stop people attending, so I believe it was a total waste of money. The biggest question i have is, how on earth have the debts tripled in 4 years? What is there to show for it? A nice shiny new stand? NO. Top new players? Don't think so. So where has the money been spent? There is much less detail in these accounts than I can remember before. Oh. The office and standby car in London. That cost £250k + per annum. Of no discernible benefit to the club. A training ground. (Stop laughing). Over a million I believe. To what purpose if it was not going to be developed? MSP loan: well this had to be repaid, so I attach no blame there. Repaying outstanding loans to former directors. Gotta say, I've never heard of total loans being repaid in full on purchase of the club. Think I could have negotiated that one better. Still short by about £8m. Please add to the list if you can think of anything It's easy to say we need new owners but are you living in a hole or something as can't you see there are businesses going bust all over the UK, ones that were trading nicely until a month ago, where are these new owners suddenly going to spring from offering Wael £m's to sell up? Not sure what repeating the owners failing is supposed to achieve, we all know their failings, but continually listing them isn't going to change things, all we can hope his MS now brings spending down to a reasonable level, we seem to be heading in the right direction, and that Wael continues to support the debts as if he doesn't we're done for. As far as the training ground I understood that was owned by Dwane Developements so any money spent on that is down to the ALQ's nothing to do with BRFC1883. As far as the office in London have you any real proof it cost £250K? Does that figure include the two members of staff wages who worked out of there? As far as the loans if they hadn't been repaid they'd still be showing as debts on our accounts and always a danger they could be called in, which is where Oldham seem to be coming unstuck at present.
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Post by swissgas on Mar 29, 2020 21:15:03 GMT
So what you are saying Topper, is that, unless you have the money to resolve the issues, you mustn't complain about the way our club is being run. That really is a good solution. What you have to understand is that people only moan because they care. What a crass question 'what are your solutions' It's bloody obvious that we need strong sensible leadership. It's also obvious that that is not what we've had for a long time now. We also need to drastically reduce the outpouring of money from our club. The only solution is new leadership and new funding. In other words new owners. Can you truly believe that what is going on now is sustainable? I said at the time that the revamp of the bars was a nice to have, but we were used to it. It didn't stop people attending, so I believe it was a total waste of money. The biggest question i have is, how on earth have the debts tripled in 4 years? What is there to show for it? A nice shiny new stand? NO. Top new players? Don't think so. So where has the money been spent? There is much less detail in these accounts than I can remember before. Oh. The office and standby car in London. That cost £250k + per annum. Of no discernible benefit to the club. A training ground. (Stop laughing). Over a million I believe. To what purpose if it was not going to be developed? MSP loan: well this had to be repaid, so I attach no blame there. Repaying outstanding loans to former directors. Gotta say, I've never heard of total loans being repaid in full on purchase of the club. Think I could have negotiated that one better. Still short by about £8m. Please add to the list if you can think of anything It's easy to say we need new owners but are you living in a hole or something as can't you see there are businesses going bust all over the UK, ones that were trading nicely until a month ago, where are these new owners suddenly going to spring from offering Wael £m's to sell up? Not sure what repeating the owners failing is supposed to achieve, we all know their failings, but continually listing them isn't going to change things, all we can hope his MS now brings spending down to a reasonable level, we seem to be heading in the right direction, and that Wael continues to support the debts as if he doesn't we're done for. As far as the training ground I understood that was owned by Dwane Developements so any money spent on that is down to the ALQ's nothing to do with BRFC1883. As far as the office in London have you any real proof it cost £250K? Does that figure include the two members of staff wages who worked out of there? As far as the loans if they hadn't been repaid they'd still be showing as debts on our accounts and always a danger they could be called in, which is where Oldham seem to be coming unstuck at present. The training ground is owned by Dwane Colony Ltd a Jersey company apparently owned by the Al Qadi family. At June 30th 2018 the BRFC 1883 Ltd accounts showed that Dwane Colony Ltd owed BRFC 1883 Ltd £ 198,799 for money spent on the training ground. The 2019 accounts are much shorter, 23 pages instead of 39, and do not disclose how much BRFC 1883 Ltd spent during the year on Dwane Colony Ltd’s training ground but the amount owed is now likely to be in excess of £ 300, 000. So Dwane Sports Ltd are lending money to BRFC 1883 Ltd and charging interest on it but some of that money is being spent on maintaining a Dwane Colony Ltd asset.
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Post by aghast on Mar 29, 2020 22:04:45 GMT
So who can offer some sensible suggestions as to why the debt/loan/investment (delete as appropriate) has increased so massively since the AQs took over? And continues to increase?
There's little to show for it.
And why was the level of debt so much lower under Nick Higgs? We went out of the Football League under him, yet still seemed to be semi-solvent.
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Post by chilly1883 on Mar 30, 2020 10:53:02 GMT
Hiring people, to find overseas talent, clearly didn’t work. I can remember a video, posted by the club, stating, we were actively sending scouts overseas. He obviously didn’t last long, but my point is, another complete waste of money. Easy to say after the event but did you post at the time it was going to be a waste of money? Although asking a foreign scout to report back on players is hardly likely to have cost a lot, plus we somehow found JVS in Holland. [br so you think, employing triple the staff, was a good idea, without even having a proper model, for a training ground or stadium?
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Post by knowall on Mar 30, 2020 14:20:10 GMT
It's easy to say we need new owners but are you living in a hole or something as can't you see there are businesses going bust all over the UK, ones that were trading nicely until a month ago, where are these new owners suddenly going to spring from offering Wael £m's to sell up? Not sure what repeating the owners failing is supposed to achieve, we all know their failings, but continually listing them isn't going to change things, all we can hope his MS now brings spending down to a reasonable level, we seem to be heading in the right direction, and that Wael continues to support the debts as if he doesn't we're done for. As far as the training ground I understood that was owned by Dwane Developements so any money spent on that is down to the ALQ's nothing to do with BRFC1883. As far as the office in London have you any real proof it cost £250K? Does that figure include the two members of staff wages who worked out of there? As far as the loans if they hadn't been repaid they'd still be showing as debts on our accounts and always a danger they could be called in, which is where Oldham seem to be coming unstuck at present. The training ground is owned by Dwane Colony Ltd a Jersey company apparently owned by the Al Qadi family. At June 30th 2018 the BRFC 1883 Ltd accounts showed that Dwane Colony Ltd owed BRFC 1883 Ltd £ 198,799 for money spent on the training ground. The 2019 accounts are much shorter, 23 pages instead of 39, and do not disclose how much BRFC 1883 Ltd spent during the year on Dwane Colony Ltd’s training ground but the amount owed is now likely to be in excess of £ 300, 000. So Dwane Sports Ltd are lending money to BRFC 1883 Ltd and charging interest on it but some of that money is being spent on maintaining a Dwane Colony Ltd asset. Interesting points swissgas, and could it be that the 16 less pages might have also shown something else significant?, for instance who the other creditors are and how much they are each owed? In today's financial climate is it possible that any of the creditors are pressing hard for payment? even possibly through the courts?, and if so, are any pushing for a winding up order? Especially, as you point out, these accounts are virtually a year out of debt - so what is the picture now? - what is the real horror show?
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stuart1974
Proper Gas
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 30, 2020 15:05:09 GMT
The training ground is owned by Dwane Colony Ltd a Jersey company apparently owned by the Al Qadi family. At June 30th 2018 the BRFC 1883 Ltd accounts showed that Dwane Colony Ltd owed BRFC 1883 Ltd £ 198,799 for money spent on the training ground. The 2019 accounts are much shorter, 23 pages instead of 39, and do not disclose how much BRFC 1883 Ltd spent during the year on Dwane Colony Ltd’s training ground but the amount owed is now likely to be in excess of £ 300, 000. So Dwane Sports Ltd are lending money to BRFC 1883 Ltd and charging interest on it but some of that money is being spent on maintaining a Dwane Colony Ltd asset. Interesting points swissgas, and could it be that the 16 less pages might have also shown something else significant?, for instance who the other creditors are and how much they are each owed? In today's financial climate is it possible that any of the creditors are pressing hard for payment? even possibly through the courts?, and if so, are any pushing for a winding up order? Especially, as you point out, these accounts are virtually a year out of debt - so what is the picture now? - what is the real horror show? Wouldn't a legal action through the Courts or winding up petition be in the public domain by now, unless it was very recent?
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Post by mariobalotelli on Mar 30, 2020 15:39:23 GMT
DC operated under the FFP rules that all our managers have had to abide by. He wasn’t given a massive unsustainable budget that broke the football club. We sold players at good money and replaced them for a fraction of the price. DC made poor signings the same as every manager who has ran a football club, but the debts at Bristol Rovers are down the owners. They have got us into this position and god knows how they intend to get us out. We seem fairly broken to me and these accounts end virtually when DC was shown the door, the accounts don't only cover the playing budget but the whole club, as I said Wael has to take the ultimate blame but who was putting pressure on him to spend, spend, spend? Umm, the fans? DC spent a fraction of what he received. Also note the sold players didn't get anywhere near their actual value. Don't come back with a reply about players like Kyle on 4k/w. If the playing budget allows it then it's fine. Remember the budget is only set on a % of income. He didn't get special grants or anything, he spent money that was in the budget that he put there via player sales. It's not like paying players somehow increased our debt. We spent what we were allowed to spend.
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Post by Topper Gas on Mar 30, 2020 16:32:02 GMT
We seem fairly broken to me and these accounts end virtually when DC was shown the door, the accounts don't only cover the playing budget but the whole club, as I said Wael has to take the ultimate blame but who was putting pressure on him to spend, spend, spend? Umm, the fans? DC spent a fraction of what he received. Also note the sold players didn't get anywhere near their actual value. Don't come back with a reply about players like Kyle on 4k/w. If the playing budget allows it then it's fine. Remember the budget is only set on a % of income. He didn't get special grants or anything, he spent money that was in the budget that he put there via player sales. It's not like paying players somehow increased our debt. We spent what we were allowed to spend. You've conveniently overlooked that unlike most companies a football manager runs the whole football side of the club from the ball boys/girls up to the appointing the Head of Recruitment, the only aspect DC wouldn't have run whilst he was in charge was the areas falling under TG's control where we apparently only now have 12 permanent employers. A massive slice of that 95% of our turnover of £6m would have fallen under DC's dirct control.
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