yattongas
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Wael
Apr 24, 2023 17:24:50 GMT
Post by yattongas on Apr 24, 2023 17:24:50 GMT
Is it this week we get news about the temp stand ? Thought it was meant to be last week? No, it’s this week. |
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Wael
Apr 24, 2023 18:27:07 GMT
Post by eric on Apr 24, 2023 18:27:07 GMT
This is a article from a while back mentioning how the deal for the FM could be structured. Conygar went public with its intention to purchase the site in December. Bristol Live understands that should the deal go through, Rovers will be invited to be a partner in the project with the developer. No commitments have been made by the club in advance, but should they join the project and a stadium be built, Rovers would sign a long-term lease with a minimal yearly financial obligation. In return, it is understood the Memorial Stadium in Horfield would be transferred to Conygar for housing I can't see how the figures stack up unless Rovers pay a decent annual rent, the FM land must be at least comparable in price possibly far more as I doubt anybody could build blocks of flats/shops etc at the Mem whereas they could at the FM, regardless even if we did a simple land swap, how will the stadium build itself be funded? As far as Coventry surely their problems started when they couldn't afford the lease/rent at the Ricoh not the length of the lease? You keep bracketing lease and rent as the same thing. The difference in respect of a stadium is massive. There is no way Wael is going to give away the Mem that we own in exchange for an expensive short term rented stadium - for both the long term wellbeing of the club who he has a genuine affection towards and also his own finances. |
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 24, 2023 19:14:46 GMT
I can't see how the figures stack up unless Rovers pay a decent annual rent, the FM land must be at least comparable in price possibly far more as I doubt anybody could build blocks of flats/shops etc at the Mem whereas they could at the FM, regardless even if we did a simple land swap, how will the stadium build itself be funded? As far as Coventry surely their problems started when they couldn't afford the lease/rent at the Ricoh not the length of the lease? You keep bracketing lease and rent as the same thing. The difference in respect of a stadium is massive. There is no way Wael is going to give away the Mem that we own in exchange for an expensive short term rented stadium - for both the long term wellbeing of the club who he has a genuine affection towards and also his own finances. Rent and lease are surely the same thing in layman's terms, the tenet pays the landlord a sum to use their property for a defined period of time. Somewhere along the way Rovers will have to rent/lease the land the stadium is built, possibly via a land swap with for the Mem, plus the cost of building a 20K(?) football stadium, as there's no way Congyer are going to make a loss on building the stadium. |
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Wael
Apr 24, 2023 20:05:35 GMT
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Post by phillistine on Apr 24, 2023 20:05:35 GMT
Rent is short term and the agreement reflects that whereas a lease is a long term thing.
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Wael
Apr 24, 2023 20:06:07 GMT
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Post by phillistine on Apr 24, 2023 20:06:07 GMT
Rent is short term and the agreement reflects that whereas a lease is a long term thing. They are completely different
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Post by eric on Apr 24, 2023 20:16:58 GMT
You keep bracketing lease and rent as the same thing. The difference in respect of a stadium is massive. There is no way Wael is going to give away the Mem that we own in exchange for an expensive short term rented stadium - for both the long term wellbeing of the club who he has a genuine affection towards and also his own finances. Rent and lease are surely the same thing in layman's terms, the tenet pays the landlord a sum to use their property for a defined period of time. Somewhere along the way Rovers will have to rent/lease the land the stadium is built, possibly via a land swap with for the Mem, plus the cost of building a 20K(?) football stadium, as there's no way Congyer are going to make a loss on building the stadium. You purchase a leasehold flat for £500k cash with a long lease. There will probably be peppercorn land rent but nowhere near the rental costs of an equivalent flat being let out on the rental market. You essentially own the flat and it will retain its value until the lease gets down to a relatively low amount of years. I’d guess we are looking at a minimum 100 year lease so won’t be of any concern to the next couple of generations. In the future I’m sure Wael, his kids, grandkids or future owners will seek to renegotiate the leasehold for a fee. We will probably all be long gone before that would happen. Back to your original point. Our having a long term leasehold stadium would put us in nowhere near as precarious a situation as Coventry who have to rent a stadium on a short term deal with no long term security (I think their stadium is owned by Mike Ashley, not sure I’d want to be a business partner of his!). |
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Wael
Apr 24, 2023 20:38:48 GMT
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eric likes this
Post by aghast on Apr 24, 2023 20:38:48 GMT
Maybe we'll own the land, as part of a land swap with the FM and Mem. They build us a stadium, using part of the profits made from housing at the Mem (which, if BCC are insisting on a sporting facility at the FM, means they couldn't build those houses there).
500 houses at £350k = £175m or approximately £87m profit to developers. £60m on a stadium for us still leaves them with £27m profit.
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Wael
Apr 24, 2023 20:46:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2023 20:46:26 GMT
Maybe we'll own the land, as part of a land swap with the FM and Mem. They build us a stadium, using part of the profits made from housing at the Mem (which, if BCC are insisting on a sporting facility at the FM, means they couldn't build those houses there). 500 houses at £350k = £175m or approximately £87m profit to developers. £60m on a stadium for us still leaves them with £27m profit. Is that a realistic number? Genuine question as I have no clue |
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Wael
Apr 24, 2023 20:48:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2023 20:48:44 GMT
Also surely any “profit” is taxable? Not quite as straight forward I should imagine
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 24, 2023 20:58:28 GMT
Maybe we'll own the land, as part of a land swap with the FM and Mem. They build us a stadium, using part of the profits made from housing at the Mem (which, if BCC are insisting on a sporting facility at the FM, means they couldn't build those houses there). 500 houses at £350k = £175m or approximately £87m profit to developers. £60m on a stadium for us still leaves them with £27m profit. Surely common sense would suggest the land is worth nowhere near £87m when Sainsbury's were only prepared to pay £32m, which apparently blew Waitrose's offer of £25m out of the water, and that was to build a supermarket, which they probably neve intended building anyway. A developer would do well to build 20 house per acre so we're looking at 200 maximum. The land is probably now worth around £25m/£30m. As I posted earlier if we do a straight land swap then where does the money to build the stadium come from? |
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Wael
Apr 24, 2023 21:02:27 GMT
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Post by aghast on Apr 24, 2023 21:02:27 GMT
Maybe we'll own the land, as part of a land swap with the FM and Mem. They build us a stadium, using part of the profits made from housing at the Mem (which, if BCC are insisting on a sporting facility at the FM, means they couldn't build those houses there). 500 houses at £350k = £175m or approximately £87m profit to developers. £60m on a stadium for us still leaves them with £27m profit. Surely common sense would suggest the land is worth nowhere near £87m when Sainsbury's were only prepared to pay £32m, which apparently blew Waitrose's offer of £25m out of the water, and that was to build a supermarket, which they probably neve intended building anyway. A developer would do well to build 20 house per acre so we're looking at 200 maximum. The land is probably now worth around £25m/£30m. As I posted earlier if we do a straight land swap then where does the money to build the stadium come from? Well Brentford's old ground now has 350 houses and flats, and the Mem site is larger than that. On the issue of Sainsbury's, they wanted to build a supermarket, not hundreds of houses which can be sold for a large profit. |
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Post by eric on Apr 24, 2023 21:04:11 GMT
Maybe we'll own the land, as part of a land swap with the FM and Mem. They build us a stadium, using part of the profits made from housing at the Mem (which, if BCC are insisting on a sporting facility at the FM, means they couldn't build those houses there). 500 houses at £350k = £175m or approximately £87m profit to developers. £60m on a stadium for us still leaves them with £27m profit. Surely common sense would suggest the land is worth nowhere near £87m when Sainsbury's were only prepared to pay £32m, which apparently blew Waitrose's offer of £25m out of the water, and that was to build a supermarket, which they probably neve intended building anyway. A developer would do well to build 20 house per acre so we're looking at 200 maximum. The land is probably now worth around £25m/£30m. As I posted earlier if we do a straight land swap then where does the money to build the stadium come from? Amazing that having a big developer, a banker, the council and numerous consultants working on this potential project and you’ve found a flaw in their cunning plan. I bet they now wish they’d got you involved at the start and saved all this time when it’s clearly a non starter !!! |
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 24, 2023 21:05:11 GMT
Rent and lease are surely the same thing in layman's terms, the tenet pays the landlord a sum to use their property for a defined period of time. Somewhere along the way Rovers will have to rent/lease the land the stadium is built, possibly via a land swap with for the Mem, plus the cost of building a 20K(?) football stadium, as there's no way Congyer are going to make a loss on building the stadium. You purchase a leasehold flat for £500k cash with a long lease. There will probably be peppercorn land rent but nowhere near the rental costs of an equivalent flat being let out on the rental market. You essentially own the flat and it will retain its value until the lease gets down to a relatively low amount of years. I’d guess we are looking at a minimum 100 year lease so won’t be of any concern to the next couple of generations. In the future I’m sure Wael, his kids, grandkids or future owners will seek to renegotiate the leasehold for a fee. We will probably all be long gone before that would happen. Back to your original point. Our having a long term leasehold stadium would put us in nowhere near as precarious a situation as Coventry who have to rent a stadium on a short term deal with no long term security (I think their stadium is owned by Mike Ashley, not sure I’d want to be a business partner of his!). Coventry City 2023 are clearly in a different position than the one which first moved to the Ricoh Arena, I understand the original rent was £1.3m p.a. which seems a reasonable sum at today's prices given that they got the use of a 40K stadium in return. How much will Rovers be paying for a 20K stadium as I can't see Congyer letting us use it for free after they've spent £50m+ building it. |
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Post by eric on Apr 24, 2023 21:15:04 GMT
You purchase a leasehold flat for £500k cash with a long lease. There will probably be peppercorn land rent but nowhere near the rental costs of an equivalent flat being let out on the rental market. You essentially own the flat and it will retain its value until the lease gets down to a relatively low amount of years. I’d guess we are looking at a minimum 100 year lease so won’t be of any concern to the next couple of generations. In the future I’m sure Wael, his kids, grandkids or future owners will seek to renegotiate the leasehold for a fee. We will probably all be long gone before that would happen. Back to your original point. Our having a long term leasehold stadium would put us in nowhere near as precarious a situation as Coventry who have to rent a stadium on a short term deal with no long term security (I think their stadium is owned by Mike Ashley, not sure I’d want to be a business partner of his!). Coventry City 2023 are clearly in a different position than the one which first moved to the Ricoh Arena, I understand the original rent was £1.3m p.a. which seems a reasonable sum at today's prices given that they got the use of a 40K stadium in return. How much will Rovers be paying for a 20K stadium as I can't see Congyer letting us use it for free after they've spent £50m+ building it. You keep talking like it’s a straight rental and not leasehold. I’d expect us to only be paying a peppercorn rent. There is no way in this world Wael will give up the Mem (the clubs biggest asset) to face a future of re-negotiating a short term rental every few years that could put our whole existence in jeopardy. |
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Wael
Apr 24, 2023 21:22:49 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 24, 2023 21:22:49 GMT
Coventry City 2023 are clearly in a different position than the one which first moved to the Ricoh Arena, I understand the original rent was £1.3m p.a. which seems a reasonable sum at today's prices given that they got the use of a 40K stadium in return. How much will Rovers be paying for a 20K stadium as I can't see Congyer letting us use it for free after they've spent £50m+ building it. You keep talking like it’s a straight rental and not leasehold. I’d expect us to only be paying a peppercorn rent. There is no way in this world Wael will give up the Mem (the clubs biggest asset) to face a future of re-negotiating a short term rental every few years that could put our whole existence in jeopardy. Also we shouldn't ignore the intangible benefits, not everything has to be in pure cash terms (well, not directly anyway). |
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 24, 2023 21:27:42 GMT
Coventry City 2023 are clearly in a different position than the one which first moved to the Ricoh Arena, I understand the original rent was £1.3m p.a. which seems a reasonable sum at today's prices given that they got the use of a 40K stadium in return. How much will Rovers be paying for a 20K stadium as I can't see Congyer letting us use it for free after they've spent £50m+ building it. You keep talking like it’s a straight rental and not leasehold. I’d expect us to only be paying a peppercorn rent. There is no way in this world Wael will give up the Mem (the clubs biggest asset) to face a future of re-negotiating a short term rental every few years that could put our whole existence in jeopardy. So what's in for Congyer if we're only paying them a peppercorn rate, which is something only you seem to be suggesting? No property developer is going to spend the best part of £100m buying the land and building a stadium without some kind of return. |
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 24, 2023 21:28:31 GMT
You keep talking like it’s a straight rental and not leasehold. I’d expect us to only be paying a peppercorn rent. There is no way in this world Wael will give up the Mem (the clubs biggest asset) to face a future of re-negotiating a short term rental every few years that could put our whole existence in jeopardy. Also we shouldn't ignore the intangible benefits, not everything has to be in pure cash terms (well, not directly anyway). Such as? |
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 24, 2023 21:32:35 GMT
Surely common sense would suggest the land is worth nowhere near £87m when Sainsbury's were only prepared to pay £32m, which apparently blew Waitrose's offer of £25m out of the water, and that was to build a supermarket, which they probably neve intended building anyway. A developer would do well to build 20 house per acre so we're looking at 200 maximum. The land is probably now worth around £25m/£30m. As I posted earlier if we do a straight land swap then where does the money to build the stadium come from? Amazing that having a big developer, a banker, the council and numerous consultants working on this potential project and you’ve found a flaw in their cunning plan. I bet they now wish they’d got you involved at the start and saved all this time when it’s clearly a non starter !!! Amazing you think the project is brilliant for Rovers but clearly have no idea what it will cost the club. |
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 24, 2023 21:37:23 GMT
Surely common sense would suggest the land is worth nowhere near £87m when Sainsbury's were only prepared to pay £32m, which apparently blew Waitrose's offer of £25m out of the water, and that was to build a supermarket, which they probably neve intended building anyway. A developer would do well to build 20 house per acre so we're looking at 200 maximum. The land is probably now worth around £25m/£30m. As I posted earlier if we do a straight land swap then where does the money to build the stadium come from? Well Brentford's old ground now has 350 houses and flats, and the Mem site is larger than that. On the issue of Sainsbury's, they wanted to build a supermarket, not hundreds of houses which can be sold for a large profit. Do you seriously think NH went through all the aggravation with Sainsbury's if he could have simply sold the land for housing? |
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Wael
Apr 24, 2023 21:43:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2023 21:43:16 GMT
You keep talking like it’s a straight rental and not leasehold. I’d expect us to only be paying a peppercorn rent. There is no way in this world Wael will give up the Mem (the clubs biggest asset) to face a future of re-negotiating a short term rental every few years that could put our whole existence in jeopardy. So what's in for Congyer if we're only paying them a peppercorn rate, which is something only you seem to be suggesting? No property developer is going to spend the best part of £100m buying the land and building a stadium without some kind of return. What do you think talks are still ongoing for? I’d suspect it’s because they want something in return , be that a lump sum or a percentage of income. |
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