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Putin
May 31, 2023 9:48:44 GMT
via mobile
eric likes this
Post by stuart1974 on May 31, 2023 9:48:44 GMT
We did, much of it was behind the scenes. We started a training programme of officers and NCOs to Nato standards and procedures amongst other things. Look up Operation Orbital, Operation Unifier and more generally, the Multinational Joint Commission. One of the reasons Ukraine was able to resist the first attacks. One of the difficulties is that much of the world was and remains pretty ambivalent or even supportive of Russia and Putin, it's taken this big step of invasion to bring many countries together and even now, there are those who back him. Sorry But that is piecemeal. What might have happened if we had brought in the same level of sanctions, financial, trade and political as we have over the last year? Might that have disrupted the Russian economy enough to discourage further attempts at land grab? I reckon, but in any event enhanced training of NCOs certainly did not. So why didn't we? I refer to my previous points See my last paragraph. It's not piecemeal, I wouldn't dismiss it either. It was fundamental to Ukraine not losing and quickly. Plenty of vested interest, not just in the west - China, North Korea, Iran, much of Africa, Assad in Syria, even Erdoğan in Turkey is sitting on the fence and helping both sides. Not everything is our fault, short of putting Nato troops in Ukraine Putin was going to invade regardless. In fact, sanctions could well have forced his hand sooner. |
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Putin
May 31, 2023 10:06:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by oldie on May 31, 2023 10:06:54 GMT
Sorry But that is piecemeal. What might have happened if we had brought in the same level of sanctions, financial, trade and political as we have over the last year? Might that have disrupted the Russian economy enough to discourage further attempts at land grab? I reckon, but in any event enhanced training of NCOs certainly did not. So why didn't we? I refer to my previous points See my last paragraph. It's not piecemeal, I wouldn't dismiss it either. It was fundamental to Ukraine not losing and quickly. Plenty of vested interest, not just in the west - China, North Korea, Iran, much of Africa, Assad in Syria, even Erdoğan in Turkey is sitting on the fence and helping both sides. Not everything is our fault, short of putting Nato troops in Ukraine Putin was going to invade regardless. In fact, sanctions could well have forced his hand sooner. First of all... China will play its own game...they will support whatever suits their interests, as we do. North Korea doesn't count because their leadership is insane and their economy is miniscule. Iran dislikes atheist Russia as much as they dislike us. Assad is a Russian puppet now,so doesn't count (not that he ever did) Turkey is a member of NATO and generally stays in line. The latest election showed 48% opposition to Erdogan and the military is very nationalistic and prone to Coups. Africa, well, could you blame them for dissing us after what we did? All the evidence shows we should have confronted Putin more strongly in 2014, we didn't and did not purely out of self interest. |
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Putin
May 31, 2023 10:21:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by stuart1974 on May 31, 2023 10:21:17 GMT
See my last paragraph. It's not piecemeal, I wouldn't dismiss it either. It was fundamental to Ukraine not losing and quickly. Plenty of vested interest, not just in the west - China, North Korea, Iran, much of Africa, Assad in Syria, even Erdoğan in Turkey is sitting on the fence and helping both sides. Not everything is our fault, short of putting Nato troops in Ukraine Putin was going to invade regardless. In fact, sanctions could well have forced his hand sooner. First of all... China will play its own game...they will support whatever suits their interests, as we do. North Korea doesn't count because their leadership is insane and their economy is miniscule. Iran dislikes atheist Russia as much as they dislike us. Assad is a Russian puppet now,so doesn't count (not that he ever did) Turkey is a member of NATO and generally stays in line. The latest election showed 48% opposition to Erdogan and the military is very nationalistic and prone to Coups. Africa, well, could you blame them for dissing us after what we did? All the evidence shows we should have confronted Putin more strongly in 2014, we didn't and did not purely out of self interest. We should have seen the lessons of Grozny and later Georgia in 2008. Those self interests aren't just us though that's the point, those self interests still exist, from the oligarc in London or cruising the Med to Gerhard Schroder and Nordstream, Trump and Farage, to Xi, Assad et al. Even the 'man in the street' getting cheaper oil and gas. I've been warning of Putin long before even the Crimea and Donbas excursions, but it's taken the full blown war to make Joe Public realise. We could and should have done more but it wouldn't have stopped him. Division in the west, markets overseas, Covid paranoia, trying to reclaim lost empire, whatever we did it wouldn't have been enough to deter him. Putin started this, let's not start wearing a hair shirt. |
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