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Post by knowall on Mar 3, 2018 11:56:24 GMT
My goodness this is painful. Which own and draw capital from where? And who are the majority shareholders thereof? They are separate entities and as such there is no obligation on the Bank to support Bristol Rovers. The obligation is on the Shareholders of Dwane Sports. Just in the same way there was no obligation on Ware Homes or Bradshaw Holdings. The obligation was on the individuals and not another Company they owned or were shareholders of.
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Post by gashead1981 on Mar 3, 2018 12:02:02 GMT
Do actually know where the capital originates from? That's a good question, we're led to believe the ALQ's are not in the same league as Lansdown, so can they really afford to keep taking a £2m hit p.a. on what is basically Wael's hobby. Their main drawdown is AJB is it not? The next question would be is if Wael is a controlling majority interest, why does it need Hani’s Guarantee on our accounts loss sheet?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 12:03:20 GMT
So if Wael has no influence on spend, why did the Al Quadi family go ahead and buy Bristol Rovers? Either they want to own a FC or they don't. you can't have it both ways. We have heard all along that it is Waels passion and how he convinced the family to purchase a club, maybe they got fed up with his nagging?! On a serious note, I have no doubt of the intention to buy, run and build a football club and turn it into something, but in some ways, you can’t do that at L1 level, the money is big, the demands are high and getting it wrong can cost a fortune and the clubs status and legacy to the community and fan base. If if you want to do something like that then you do a Fleetwood or a AFC Fylde, where costs are lower, where mistakes are less costly and the fan base is less vociferous. Hamer has already alluded to how to how he can’t understand why fans opinions should count for so much as Ambramovich at Chelsea doesn’t have the same focus. If that is the true reflection which has come from the ALQs themselves then they have already bought the wrong football club. Rovers has has too loyal and too passionate a fan base with too many local businesses supporting them for our opinion to count for nothing and our demand for regular information not to be blanked. Higgs and the last board and the dunfords before that always said they were custodians of the club, for all the good decisions and bad and the good and tough times there was always that feel. I do feel now it’s more isolated, more of a them and us. The clubs owners were always depending on fans either doing voluntary work or raising money for them to keep their football club running. That is why previous owners had no choice but to promote in it together ,we are a family ,type of feeling. That is great but it can only work at lower levels and as the money in football rises the lower that ethic can work at increases. The current level of owners do not need the fans to provide voluntary work or raise funds for them. This however should be negotiated by the supporters club director on the board. The SC could decide to focus on the player budget and direct all fund raising towards that. Or they may decide a different cause is better (?) Could for example the sc copyright the term "gasheads" or "the gas" and then use that to merchandise its own products and raise money (?)
I believe the main focus for supporters at this current date should actually be the supporters club ,what it is ,what it should be and what its focuses should be.
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Post by gashead1981 on Mar 3, 2018 12:07:24 GMT
My goodness this is painful. Which own and draw capital from where? And who are the majority shareholders thereof? They are separate entities and as such there is no obligation on the Bank to support Bristol Rovers. The obligation is on the Shareholders of Dwane Sports. Just in the same way there was no obligation on Ware Homes or Bradshaw Holdings. The obligation was on the individuals and not another Company they owned or were shareholders of. Correct, but using your analogy of the previous board, if they withdrew funding or ran out of money or went bust, whichever you prefer, what would happen to the other company relying on profits from another source? Answer: it would collapse and so would everything under the umbrella thereof. So the bank has to underwrite the losses of another company of which the shareholders are linked. Why do you think Hani’s signature of guarantee needs to be on our accounts?
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Post by sallycinnamon on Mar 3, 2018 12:12:23 GMT
well yeah I did because they’re was drawn up plans for the stadium when they took over We can argue, and have, for months why that never happened. Maybe but when they took I expected things to happen within 2 years as did everyone else
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Post by 2nd May 1990 on Mar 3, 2018 12:13:53 GMT
Definitely good to question why we are not progressing in certain areas.
But surely still too soon to judge the Al Qadis?
They have put considerable money and time into the UWE project before deciding it was a non-starter. That entitles them to respect.
What happens next is obviously what they will be judged on but for now, two years on, we are a league above where we were when they took over and have purchased land for a training facility. They have also declared an intention to develop the Mem.
A modicum of patience is clearly required to see how these things play out as it is not even a year on from the UWE plug being pulled.
It seems to me that it is the culmination of over 30 years of stadium talk and disappointments which shape our feelings of frustration at a lack of progress. That's totally understandable but it's also not fair to take all of that frustration out on the Al Qadi's.
Let's hope for some real meat on the bones soon to give us something to properly chew over.
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Post by knowall on Mar 3, 2018 12:24:27 GMT
That's a good question, we're led to believe the ALQ's are not in the same league as Lansdown, so can they really afford to keep taking a £2m hit p.a. on what is basically Wael's hobby. Their main drawdown is AJB is it not? The next question would be is if Wael is a controlling majority interest, why does it need Hani’s Guarantee on our accounts loss sheet? 1) Maybe - ask them 2) Hani signs as a signatory of Dwane Sports so it is Dwane Sports guarantee
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Post by knowall on Mar 3, 2018 12:25:42 GMT
We have heard all along that it is Waels passion and how he convinced the family to purchase a club, maybe they got fed up with his nagging?! On a serious note, I have no doubt of the intention to buy, run and build a football club and turn it into something, but in some ways, you can’t do that at L1 level, the money is big, the demands are high and getting it wrong can cost a fortune and the clubs status and legacy to the community and fan base. If if you want to do something like that then you do a Fleetwood or a AFC Fylde, where costs are lower, where mistakes are less costly and the fan base is less vociferous. Hamer has already alluded to how to how he can’t understand why fans opinions should count for so much as Ambramovich at Chelsea doesn’t have the same focus. If that is the true reflection which has come from the ALQs themselves then they have already bought the wrong football club. Rovers has has too loyal and too passionate a fan base with too many local businesses supporting them for our opinion to count for nothing and our demand for regular information not to be blanked. Higgs and the last board and the dunfords before that always said they were custodians of the club, for all the good decisions and bad and the good and tough times there was always that feel. I do feel now it’s more isolated, more of a them and us. The clubs owners were always depending on fans either doing voluntary work or raising money for them to keep their football club running. That is why previous owners had no choice but to promote in it together ,we are a family ,type of feeling. That is great but it can only work at lower levels and as the money in football rises the lower that ethic can work at increases. The current level of owners do not need the fans to provide voluntary work or raise funds for them. This however should be negotiated by the supporters club director on the board. The SC could decide to focus on the player budget and direct all fund raising towards that. Or they may decide a different cause is better (?) Could for example the sc copyright the term "gasheads" or "the gas" and then use that to merchandise its own products and raise money (?)
I believe the main focus for supporters at this current date should actually be the supporters club ,what it is ,what it should be and what its focuses should be.
good points
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Post by baggins on Mar 3, 2018 12:26:32 GMT
We can argue, and have, for months why that never happened. Maybe but when they took I expected things to happen within 2 years as did everyone else Things have happened since they took over. Countless extra backroom staff, training facilities, they even get fed! Plus they've paid off the Directors loans, given DC a 5 year contract, extended contracts for 4? Players and brought in 5? Players to add to the squad. The main gripe, yours included but I can understand why, is the UWE failure (which I'm sure was down to UWE being ran as a commitee which is never good news and their constant requests for changes to the plans leading to Wael getting fed up with it and walking away as what they wanted was not in the interest of BRFC), and the lack of communication. Let's face it, the previous Board weren't exactly brilliant at that either, as well as employing Lawyers who allowed Sainsburys to wriggle out of the deal. 2 years? Not really that long is it. To expect a huge turnaround I think is unrealistic. Frustrating, but unrealistic and unfair.
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Post by knowall on Mar 3, 2018 12:27:13 GMT
Definitely good to question why we are not progressing in certain areas. But surely still too soon to judge the Al Qadis? They have put considerable money and time into the UWE project before deciding it was a non-starter. That entitles them to respect. What happens next is obviously what they will be judged on but for now, two years on, we are a league above where we were when they took over and have purchased land for a training facility. They have also declared an intention to develop the Mem. A modicum of patience is clearly required to see how these things play out as it is not even a year on from the UWE plug being pulled. It seems to me that it is the culmination of over 30 years of stadium talk and disappointments which shape our feelings of frustration at a lack of progress. That's totally understandable but it's also not fair to take all of that frustration out on the Al Qadi's. Let's hope for some real meat on the bones soon to give us something to properly chew over. the voice of reason - well put
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Post by oldgas on Mar 3, 2018 12:33:12 GMT
Some of us have to keep the country going while you lot sleep in your pits... Time for a bacon butty and tea..... but you are old and you are a tart I’ve seen you in the your shop and it also looks like you need to cut down on the pork pies mate get some exercise 😘🤣 Hey, that's enough. Ill have you know that Henbury is the highly valued chief test pilot at Bowyers. His opinion is eagerly sought with each fresh batch of their pork pies, and other fatty pork products. If H says "No" the batch is dumped. No iff's, no but's. A rival manufacturer once tried to lure him away with the promise of free pork scratching so for life. But he declined. Such loyalty is is rare these days, and it extends to The Gas. It's not common knowledge, but several months ago the Rosy Cheeked Lady Garden tried to lure him to the Dark Side with the promise of a free, extra large executive box, the better to accommodate his ample, rotund proportions. The response is too vicious to repeat here, suffice to say the RFLG was advised to "Do one"
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Post by gashead1981 on Mar 3, 2018 12:56:53 GMT
Their main drawdown is AJB is it not? The next question would be is if Wael is a controlling majority interest, why does it need Hani’s Guarantee on our accounts loss sheet? 1) Maybe - ask them 2) Hani signs as a signatory of Dwane Sports so it is Dwane Sports guarantee If Wael has the disposable personal fortune himself, he would be. But he hasn’t and therefore he can’t. Ignorance of these facts means that you fail to accept that we are completely reliant on Hani and the rest of the family for money or to underwrite the losses. Wael as our president means absolutely nothing for us financially. It’s as simple as that.
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Post by gashead1981 on Mar 3, 2018 13:04:16 GMT
Maybe but when they took I expected things to happen within 2 years as did everyone else Things have happened since they took over. Countless extra backroom staff, training facilities, they even get fed! Plus they've paid off the Directors loans, given DC a 5 year contract, extended contracts for 4? Players and brought in 5? Players to add to the squad. The main gripe, yours included but I can understand why, is the UWE failure (which I'm sure was down to UWE being ran as a commitee which is never good news and their constant requests for changes to the plans leading to Wael getting fed up with it and walking away as what they wanted was not in the interest of BRFC), and the lack of communication. Let's face it, the previous Board weren't exactly brilliant at that either, as well as employing Lawyers who allowed Sainsburys to wriggle out of the deal. 2 years? Not really that long is it. To expect a huge turnaround I think is unrealistic. Frustrating, but unrealistic and unfair. In 2006 when we were L2 and when Higgs was appointed to the board, it took him 18 months to announce the first plans for the Mem regeneration. It was the world recession which halted that project and the 3 years of pain thereafter, by which plans were afoot for the UWE/Sainsbury’s Project. So I don’t get why such a time scale of 2 years and counting without a plan b is considered to be ok and acceptable? Like I said earlier, the ALQs have had a positive effect, no doubt about it but time is of the essence for a new stadium and it should be top of the list of getting sorted out.
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Post by gashead1981 on Mar 3, 2018 13:04:18 GMT
Maybe but when they took I expected things to happen within 2 years as did everyone else Things have happened since they took over. Countless extra backroom staff, training facilities, they even get fed! Plus they've paid off the Directors loans, given DC a 5 year contract, extended contracts for 4? Players and brought in 5? Players to add to the squad. The main gripe, yours included but I can understand why, is the UWE failure (which I'm sure was down to UWE being ran as a commitee which is never good news and their constant requests for changes to the plans leading to Wael getting fed up with it and walking away as what they wanted was not in the interest of BRFC), and the lack of communication. Let's face it, the previous Board weren't exactly brilliant at that either, as well as employing Lawyers who allowed Sainsburys to wriggle out of the deal. 2 years? Not really that long is it. To expect a huge turnaround I think is unrealistic. Frustrating, but unrealistic and unfair. In 2006 when we were L2 and when Higgs was appointed to the board, it took him 18 months to announce the first plans for the Mem regeneration. It was the world recession which halted that project and the 3 years of pain thereafter, by which plans were afoot for the UWE/Sainsbury’s Project. So I don’t get why such a time scale of 2 years and counting without a plan b is considered to be ok and acceptable? Like I said earlier, the ALQs have had a positive effect, no doubt about it but time is of the essence for a new stadium and it should be top of the list of getting sorted out.
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Post by baggins on Mar 3, 2018 13:07:44 GMT
1) Maybe - ask them 2) Hani signs as a signatory of Dwane Sports so it is Dwane Sports guarantee If Wael has the disposable personal fortune himself, he would be. But he hasn’t and therefore he can’t. Ignorance of these facts means that you fail to accept that we are completely reliant on Hani and the rest of the family for money or to underwrite the losses. Wael as our president means absolutely nothing for us financially. It’s as simple as that. You make it sound as if Wael and Hani don't get on. If Hani does hold the strings, why did he let Wael buy us? To stop his whinging about wanting to own a Football Club? And isn't Wael part of the family? So it's as much his losses as the rest of them.
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Post by gashead1981 on Mar 3, 2018 13:17:41 GMT
If Wael has the disposable personal fortune himself, he would be. But he hasn’t and therefore he can’t. Ignorance of these facts means that you fail to accept that we are completely reliant on Hani and the rest of the family for money or to underwrite the losses. Wael as our president means absolutely nothing for us financially. It’s as simple as that. You make it sound as if Wael and Hani don't get on. If Hani does hold the strings, why did he let Wael buy us? To stop his whinging about wanting to own a Football Club? And isn't Wael part of the family? So it's as much his losses as the rest of them. I’ve made no such suggestion. Our president has no direct controlling influence on how much money he can personally put into our club via the family fortune or companies the family own, because he isn’t a majority shareholder in them himself. Purely from a business and financial perspective he has no outright control. If the board of AJB and their other investment holding companies decide that money into BRFC is no longer worth it, want to sell BRFC or want their money back they have given to the club, regardless of what Wael says or how thick the ALQ bloodline is, it could potentially put us in a precarious situation. Especially when there is a charge against the only asset the club own themselves. Given that we are a loss making exercise and the ALQs are all about making money, there is a natural conflict there. Unless there are sure footed plans with finance in place to make the club valuable to their investment at some point in the future, which there isn’t so far, and the fact that our chairman doesn’t like football, and we get zero in the way of comms from the club on all these behind the scenes projects they keep saying there are, then it makes it an unnerving time.
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Post by knowall on Mar 3, 2018 13:21:40 GMT
They are separate entities and as such there is no obligation on the Bank to support Bristol Rovers. The obligation is on the Shareholders of Dwane Sports. Just in the same way there was no obligation on Ware Homes or Bradshaw Holdings. The obligation was on the individuals and not another Company they owned or were shareholders of. Correct, but using your analogy of the previous board, if they withdrew funding or ran out of money or went bust, whichever you prefer, what would happen to the other company relying on profits from another source? Answer: it would collapse and so would everything under the umbrella thereof. So the bank has to underwrite the losses of another company of which the shareholders are linked. Why do you think Hani’s signature of guarantee needs to be on our accounts? Sorry but you are totally wrong: If one of your companies goes bust it does not effect all your companies unless they are directly linked or you yourself are bust. In the case of Hani/Rovers that is because Rovers are owned by Dwane Sports and are thus directly linked. But it does not affect the Bank because the Bank is not directly linked to Rovers or Dwane.
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Post by baggins on Mar 3, 2018 13:26:21 GMT
You make it sound as if Wael and Hani don't get on. If Hani does hold the strings, why did he let Wael buy us? To stop his whinging about wanting to own a Football Club? And isn't Wael part of the family? So it's as much his losses as the rest of them. I’ve made no such suggestion. Our president has no direct controlling influence on how much money he can personally put into our club via the family fortune or companies the family own, because he isn’t a majority shareholder in them himself. Purely from a business and financial perspective he has no outright control. If the board of AJB and their other investment holding companies decide that money into BRFC is no longer worth it, want to sell BRFC or want their money back they have given to the club, regardless of what Wael says or how thick the ALQ bloodline is, it could potentially put us in a precarious situation. Especially when there is a charge against the only asset the club own themselves. Given that we are a loss making exercise and the ALQs are all about making money, there is a natural conflict there. Unless there are sure footed plans with finance in place to make the club valuable to their investment at some point in the future, which there isn’t so far, and the fact that our chairman doesn’t like football, and we get zero in the way of comms from the club on all these behind the scenes projects they keep saying there are, then it makes it an unnerving time. All of that, is pure guesswork.
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Post by knowall on Mar 3, 2018 13:33:25 GMT
1) Maybe - ask them 2) Hani signs as a signatory of Dwane Sports so it is Dwane Sports guarantee If Wael has the disposable personal fortune himself, he would be. But he hasn’t and therefore he can’t. Ignorance of these facts means that you fail to accept that we are completely reliant on Hani and the rest of the family for money or to underwrite the losses. Wael as our president means absolutely nothing for us financially. It’s as simple as that. Please don't infer I am ignorant of the facts - my 30 years in finance and banking gives me some knowledge on the subject. Firstly - do you know Wael's personal wealth? Secondly - do you know Hani's wealth? Finally - we (Rovers) are reliant on Dwane Sports and the companies shareholders.
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Post by knowall on Mar 3, 2018 13:42:41 GMT
You make it sound as if Wael and Hani don't get on. If Hani does hold the strings, why did he let Wael buy us? To stop his whinging about wanting to own a Football Club? And isn't Wael part of the family? So it's as much his losses as the rest of them. I’ve made no such suggestion. Our president has no direct controlling influence on how much money he can personally put into our club via the family fortune or companies the family own, because he isn’t a majority shareholder in them himself. Purely from a business and financial perspective he has no outright control. If the board of AJB and their other investment holding companies decide that money into BRFC is no longer worth it, want to sell BRFC or want their money back they have given to the club, regardless of what Wael says or how thick the ALQ bloodline is, it could potentially put us in a precarious situation. Especially when there is a charge against the only asset the club own themselves. Given that we are a loss making exercise and the ALQs are all about making money, there is a natural conflict there. Unless there are sure footed plans with finance in place to make the club valuable to their investment at some point in the future, which there isn’t so far, and the fact that our chairman doesn’t like football, and we get zero in the way of comms from the club on all these behind the scenes projects they keep saying there are, then it makes it an unnerving time. AJB cannot sell Bristol Rovers because they do not own it - nor do they own Dwane Sports. Dwane Sports owns Bristol Rovers (or 92% of) and Dwane Sports is owned by the Al-Qadi famiy - not the AJBank.
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