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Post by 2nd May 1990 on Jun 30, 2018 8:27:27 GMT
With Darrell now up to 7th in the longest serving managers’ list, I thought it might be interesting to see what has happened to the clubs that have stuck with their managers for longer.
1. Morecambe (Jim Bentley - 7 seasons). Morecambe were promoted to the football league for the first time in 2007 and have since spent 11 straight seasons in league 2. The first four of them were under Sammy McIlroy before Bentley took over. In a relatively new 6,000 capacity stadium, they moved into it a couple of years before Bentley took over. Bentley has been continually fighting to avoid the drop, with only one season where Morecambe scraped into the top half of the table. Attendances have been on the decline and are the worst in the league at an average of around 1400. His continued employment at the club suggests that the owners know that he is doing the best he can within the resources they have.
2. Wycombe (Gareth Ainsworth - nearly 6 seasons). Ainsworth took over shortly into the season following relegation to league 2 and spent the first two seasons struggling to avoid relegation out of the league. Since then he has turned things around impressively, reaching the play offs in 2014/15, being in contention in the following couple of seasons before gaining automatic promotion last season. Attendances had been stable at around 4000 throughout his reign, before having a predictable spike with a promotion season, up to 4700.
3. Neal Ardley (Wimbledon - nearly 6 seasons). Much like Ainsworth, Ardley took over at a difficult time and in his first three years, the club was fighting against relegation. Then in 2015/16 they won promotion to league 1 through the play-offs in our promotion season. Since then, Ardley has done well to settle the Dons in league 1 with two lower mid-table finishes. Promotion only achieved a tiny spike in their attendances which are pretty solidly just over 4000.
4. Bournemouth (Eddie Howe - almost 6 seasons). Howe is clearly the Messiah of the south coast. In his first spell at Boscombe (2009-2011) he managed to haul his team safe from relegation out of the football league, overturning a 17 point deficit, before gaining promotion to league 1 the following season. He took the club to the play-offs the following year before taking over at Burnley. He was back at Bournemouth in October 2012 and gained promotion to the Championship in his first season. After finishing what everyone thought was a highly respectable 10th in the championship the following season, he then took the club to the premiership and has since stabilised them as a mid-table club on crowds of 11000. They picked up some big investment along the way but that wouldn’t have been possible without Howe at the helm and they are still punching massively above their weight. It is an example of what can be achieved through continuity when the manager clearly knows his onions!
5. Burnley (Sean Dyche - nearly 6 seasons). Dyche took over from Howe at Burnley. They were in a comfortable mid-table position at the time and he initially kept them there in his first season, before gaining promotion to the Premiership in his second season. Although Burnley were relegated in their first season in the Prem, the board didn’t panic and kept faith with Dyche. This decision paid handsome dividends as Dyche took them back up, and with the knowledge he has accrued first time around, he kept Burnley up this time and then last season they massively exceeded all expectations by securing European football for the first time in 51 years. Predictably, attendances have maxed out at 20,000 in the premiership. In the Championship they were only getting 13,000, even when they got promoted, so this is no mean feat.
6. Rochdale (Keith Hill - 5 1/2 seasons) Like Howe, Hill returned to Rochdale having had a successful time there previously. He had gained promotion with them in 2009/10 and achieved the club’s highest ever league position of 9th in league 1 in 2010/11. He took over for a second time with the club back in league 2 and in free fall, having lost 8 of their last 10 games. He stabilised them to achieve a mid-table finish and then went on to secure promotion the following year. Since then he achieved three successive top half finishes, breaking the record of Rochdale’s highest ever finish once again in 2014/15, when they finished 8th. Last year was a disappointment and they just avoided relegation, but rightly the board have stuck with him. On attendances of just over 3000, keeping them in league 1 is a pretty good achievement in any case. Hopefully he will get the club moving forward again next season.
So those are the 6 managers who have been serving longer than our Darrell.
Are there any common denominators? The relative size of each club in the division it’s now in is interesting to me, and suggests that reaching the Championship under Clarke is not beyond the realms of possibility.
Is longevity in a managerial reign always a good thing? It can go stale a la Wenger, but surely constantly changing is a recipe for disaster, as we saw prior to Clarke taking over.
It’s interesting that the number 1 in the list is the only one without a promotion in that time. Is keeping Morecambe in the league until now, enough or is it inevitable that they will fall out of the league eventually if they don’t make a change?
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Post by warehamgas on Jun 30, 2018 8:40:58 GMT
Thanks for that 2nd May, interesting read and can’t really argue with anything you’ve said. Football people are real optimists imo and in the first week of August all teams in League 2 think they can make an attempt at promotion given a bit of luck but in reality two teams will finish at the bottom and go out of the league. Someone has to, not all teams can be successful even if they are run correctly. Bentley at Morecambe has done a reasonable job on the resources imo but Accrington not much better off yet they stormed the league. Whatever, your point about continuity is correct and where it is maintained it gives clubs the best chance of success. But that continuity has to be “good” continuity. Some clubs have continuity in terms of boardroom, Barnet with Kleanthous for example, yetvthey flit between inexperienced younger leaders and older very experienced ones and it all comes crashing down after a couple of years. Leeds are another example, they can’t seem to agree a type of manager to employ which will affect recruitment and it all ends in under-achievement. Good thread by the way. UTG!
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Post by 2nd May 1990 on Jun 30, 2018 8:48:27 GMT
Thanks for that 2nd May, interesting read and can’t really argue with anything you’ve said. Football people are real optimists imo and in the first week of August all teams in League 2 think they can make an attempt at promotion given a bit of luck but in reality two teams will finish at the bottom and go out of the league. Someone has to, not all teams can be successful even if they are run correctly. Bentley at Morecambe has done a reasonable job on the resources imo but Accrington not much better off yet they stormed the league. Whatever, your point about continuity is correct and where it is maintained it gives clubs the best chance of success. But that continuity has to be “good” continuity. Some clubs have continuity in terms of boardroom, Barnet with Kleanthous for example, yetvthey flit between inexperienced younger leaders and older very experienced ones and it all comes crashing down after a couple of years. Leeds are another example, they can’t seem to agree a type of manager to employ which will affect recruitment and it all ends in under-achievement. Good thread by the way. UTG! Thanks. There are so many factors involved. Take Pochettino, a bright manager who most would consider is doing a really good job at Spurs. Yet there’s no magic formula and it’s bloody tough to win that league. If we knew that Pochettino would still be at Spurs in 5 years you would suspect that they would be doing well, but no guarantee they would have even come close to winning the league. That’s what their demanding supporters will expect, especially with the new stadium. I don’t know what I’d do in Morecambe’s situation but they don’t only have Accrington as an example of what can be achieved. Their neighbours Fleetwood have done brilliantly with small attendances since becoming a league club and that must rankle. Fleetwood have massive financial backing though, even with tiny crowds. Their impressive training ground outlines this. How does a club measure success?
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Post by Squiffy on Jun 30, 2018 9:49:41 GMT
Perfect thought provoking football thread for a football forum! ⚽️😊👍
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Jun 30, 2018 10:08:12 GMT
Good thread.
I think a key part of a long term managers success comes from constantly evolving and trying to improve all aspects of the club, both personally, the squad and the coaching setup.
We have a bright young manager that has done just that by freshening up and improving his squad year on year, developing himself through management courses and watching different styles of play, adding different backroom, medical and scouting staff.
We are lucky to have DC and he will only improve through the ups and downs of experience. With the right recruitment and backing I don't see why we can't knock on the door of the championship, because the thing with DC he more often than not improves players individually, has us well organised and punching above our weight.
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Post by poorblue on Jun 30, 2018 10:41:10 GMT
Good thread. I think a key part of a long term managers success comes from constantly evolving and trying to improve all aspects of the club, both personally, the squad and the coaching setup. We have a bright young manager that has done just that by freshening up and improving his squad year on year, developing himself through management courses and watching different styles of play, adding different backroom, medical and scouting staff. We are lucky to have DC and he will only improve through the ups and downs of experience. With the right recruitment and backing I don't see why we can't knock on the door of the championship, because the thing with DC he more often than not improves players individually, has us well organised and punching above our weight. Never having been part of a football team backroom staff I don't know how it works but assume the Manager picks his staff unless already there. Like the first team players the backroom staff are a team as well so the above comment is spot on IMO. I do have an issue on one point though. Whilst DC as manager as boss gets the credit his backroom staff must take a huge piece or credit as well, such as "DC improves players individually". There is not enough hours in the day for DC to "watch" players either in his own squad or other teams, thus it is scouts who recommend new players so that DC can sieve through the best recommended and then hopefully sign them. I know DC says following any signing that he has been tracking them for years sometimes but that is following scouts recommendations I'm sure and agents videos? It is then the likes of Hargreaves, Mildenhall, Parinello, Mansell and Stewart to improve them on the training ground. As manager DC gets the plaudits but it's team work that counts and all parts must click to be successful. Including nice drinking environment, toilets, pasties, shop and of course the man holding the purse. UTG
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Jun 30, 2018 10:44:32 GMT
Good thread. I think a key part of a long term managers success comes from constantly evolving and trying to improve all aspects of the club, both personally, the squad and the coaching setup. We have a bright young manager that has done just that by freshening up and improving his squad year on year, developing himself through management courses and watching different styles of play, adding different backroom, medical and scouting staff. We are lucky to have DC and he will only improve through the ups and downs of experience. With the right recruitment and backing I don't see why we can't knock on the door of the championship, because the thing with DC he more often than not improves players individually, has us well organised and punching above our weight. Never having been part of a football team backroom staff I don't know how it works but assume the Manager picks his staff unless already there. Like the first team players the backroom staff are a team as well so the above comment is spot on IMO. I do have an issue on one point though. Whilst DC as manager as boss gets the credit his backroom staff must take a huge piece or credit as well, such as "DC improves players individually". There is not enough hours in the day for DC to "watch" players either in his own squad or other teams, thus it is scouts who recommend new players so that DC can sieve through the best recommended and then hopefully sign them. I know DC says following any signing that he has been tracking them for years sometimes but that is following scouts recommendations I'm sure and agents videos? It is then the likes of Hargreaves, Mildenhall, Parinello, Mansell and Stewart to improve them on the training ground. As manager DC gets the plaudits but it's team work that counts and all parts must click to be successful. Including nice drinking environment, toilets, pasties, shop and of course the man holding the purse. UTG When I said DC improves players individually, of course I meant DC and his backroom staff and you're right, it's a collective effort.
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Post by 2nd May 1990 on Jun 30, 2018 10:57:15 GMT
Just following on from my point about the size of clubs relative to where they are. If we use attendance as a guide to this, most of these clubs are clearly punching above their weight:
Morecambe - 1492. 92/92 league clubs. Clearly Conference level support. Achieving +1 level.
Wycombe - 4705. 67/92. Puts them in the relegation zone for attendances in league 1. Just about achieving at the right level, but it’s close to being +1.
Wimbledon - 4325 - 75/92. Puts them towards the top of league 2. Achieving +1 level.
Bournemouth - 10,641 - 46/92. Puts them at the top of our league. Achieving +2 level though they are nearly at capacity.
Burnley - 20,688 - 29/92. Puts them top half of Championship. Achieving +1 level though they are nearly at capacity.
Rochdale - 3,471 - 82/92. Puts them bottom half of league 2. Clearly achieving +1 level.
Of the 6 clubs, only Wycombe are in the league they should be, and even then it is only by 2 places. All other clubs are at least one division above where they should be.
Is this where sticking with a good manager, sometimes through thick and thin, gets you?
So, where are we on the attendance list? 8933. 52/92. That puts us top end of league 1. By sticking with Darrell maybe we can achieve what the other clubs have and perform in a division above this, ie the Championship. Our capacity at the moment is about 11,000. Similar to Bournemouth. If we hit that week in, week out, we would still probably just about be at the top of league 1 for attendances. That goes to illustrate firstly how brilliantly Bournemouth have done, but I think they are an outlier in these stats. It really shows what we all already know: that the Championship is probably the limit of our ambition whilst we are at the Mem, in its current form.
Not a bad ambition for the moment though, and with Clarke still at the helm, the more long-standing managers have proved that this further progress is achievable.
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Post by warehamgas on Jun 30, 2018 11:45:25 GMT
Thanks for that 2nd May, interesting read and can’t really argue with anything you’ve said. Football people are real optimists imo and in the first week of August all teams in League 2 think they can make an attempt at promotion given a bit of luck but in reality two teams will finish at the bottom and go out of the league. Someone has to, not all teams can be successful even if they are run correctly. Bentley at Morecambe has done a reasonable job on the resources imo but Accrington not much better off yet they stormed the league. Whatever, your point about continuity is correct and where it is maintained it gives clubs the best chance of success. But that continuity has to be “good” continuity. Some clubs have continuity in terms of boardroom, Barnet with Kleanthous for example, yetvthey flit between inexperienced younger leaders and older very experienced ones and it all comes crashing down after a couple of years. Leeds are another example, they can’t seem to agree a type of manager to employ which will affect recruitment and it all ends in under-achievement. Good thread by the way. UTG! Thanks. There are so many factors involved. Take Pochettino, a bright manager who most would consider is doing a really good job at Spurs. Yet there’s no magic formula and it’s bloody tough to win that league. If we knew that Pochettino would still be at Spurs in 5 years you would suspect that they would be doing well, but no guarantee they would have even come close to winning the league. That’s what their demanding supporters will expect, especially with the new stadium. I don’t know what I’d do in Morecambe’s situation but they don’t only have Accrington as an example of what can be achieved. Their neighbours Fleetwood have done brilliantly with small attendances since becoming a league club and that must rankle. Fleetwood have massive financial backing though, even with tiny crowds. Their impressive training ground outlines this. How does a club measure success? They have similar small attendances, Fleetwood slightly bigger but I suspect that’s where the similarities end. Fleetwood with Piley’s £millions have been able to avoid the occasional financial mess Morecambe has been in. Seem to remember Morecambe having ownership problems over the past couple of years where a Brazilian bought the club and didn’t always pay the staff. Fleetwood on the other hand have a very rich, local man who definitely has a plan and the means to achieve it. Bringing it back to Rovers, I would like to think that were we to have a man with a plan and the means to achieve it our potential is pretty high and we could certainly achieve what Swansea, Brighton and Bournemouth have done. I know those towns are one-club-towns but Bristol is large enough with a large population to sustain that imo. I wont go on about Bournemouth on a Rovers site but having watched them for over 20 years. I can say they have obviously done exceptionally well. But they have also had incredible luck. One example, when they were in League 2 they were placed under a transfer embargo. Part of the reason was they had bought several very good players just before the embargo was imposed, struggled to pay for them. Had they not got those players who got them promotion they would not have had the embargo nor would they have got promoted. They were living well above their means financially without a rich man at that time to bale them out. They got promoted and as they say, the rest is history. They were very lucky imo. Keith Hill the Rochdale manager then and now was very aggrieved at what Bournemouth did then but who cares now? UTG!
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Post by warehamgas on Jun 30, 2018 15:10:19 GMT
Yes 2nd May, whatever is said about Bournemouth, it’s all about Eddie H. EH stays and they’ll be ok, no EH and they go back to where they started from. And as you say him and DC are both v good man managers and both will ship out players who rock the boat and threaten the team ethic imo. UTG!
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 30, 2018 21:53:30 GMT
Yes 2nd May, whatever is said about Bournemouth, it’s all about Eddie H. EH stays and they’ll be ok, no EH and they go back to where they started from. And as you say him and DC are both v good man managers and both will ship out players who rock the boat and threaten the team ethic imo. UTG! I can't recall the exact quote but it went something along the lines of success is 80% man management and only 20% team tactics. Stuart Pearce was being interviewed on Radio 5 this morning, I only caught a bit of it, but he was honest in that he signed for Brian Clough, not Nottingham Forest. I have noticed the likes of Gaffney and more recently Bennett saying how much they have been impressed with DC specifically. The OP just shows how important backing the right manager is even in tough times and not resort to short term fixes. It also allows us to bring through players which with the academy and development squad will start to show rewards soon.
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Post by Colyton Gas on Jul 1, 2018 10:07:33 GMT
Excellent post.Don't know how Morecambe do it but friendliest supporters I v'e met.Neat stadium too.Remember Anyinsah crossing for Eliot to equalise when we drew 1-1.Parkesy gave Jack Redshaw a gift for their goal.JJ played that day whilst on loan.Gasheads chanting,'Johnny Wards Blue and White Army ' throughout.Had our photo taken at the famous Eric Morecambe statue on a freezing Feb afternoon. Talking of little clubs,Macclesfield now back-new manager as John Askey gone to Shrewsbury- and they have a ground worse than ours.Not many we can say that about but worst ever was Belle Vue the old Donny ramshackle monstrosity.
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 1, 2018 13:40:15 GMT
Excellent post.Don't know how Morecambe do it but friendliest supporters I v'e met.Neat stadium too.Remember Anyinsah crossing for Eliot to equalise when we drew 1-1.Parkesy gave Jack Redshaw a gift for their goal.JJ played that day whilst on loan.Gasheads chanting,'Johnny Wards Blue and White Army ' throughout.Had our photo taken at the famous Eric Morecambe statue on a freezing Feb afternoon. Talking of little clubs,Macclesfield now back-new manager as John Askey gone to Shrewsbury- and they have a ground worse than ours.Not many we can say that about but worst ever was Belle Vue the old Donny ramshackle monstrosity.Agree. It really was awful. Went there the year before it closed. In the away end it was so bad I’m sure people were afraid of going in the designated toilets because of what they might catch and just went over the back wall onto a piece of rough ground. Went to buy something from the burgher van saw what it looked like and thought no, I’ll wait until later! Awful. Tbf to them the Keepmoat is ok. UTG!
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