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Post by cj on Jul 12, 2018 17:36:29 GMT
Yes you are right about KDB. Very similar goal stats I believe. However, he plays out wide or very deep as a play maker. Totally different positions. And would explain KDB lack of goals. If he was in a more advance position, say in Alli's position, I believe he would have a far greater record. Just an opinion though.
But take goal/assists out of the equation. I am purely talking about Alli's performances. Alli was 'missing' in far too many games last season and at the WC for me. As explained in my previous post for reasons why I believe this to be my opinion. I respect you enough not to bore you repeating it again! If you want to compare 'performances' with Alli and KDB then there is no comparison. KDB had a brilliant season. Alli was nowhere near his level. KDB was heavily involved with pretty much every attack. It was very rare for him to be 'missing' in games. That's why he was right up their in the running to win player of the season.
I have not said Alli has had a bad season. The goals/assists stats from you saved him from a 'bad' season. But his performances which is what I based my original post on Alli about was he hasn't had a great season. Below par for his ability. Lacking in confidence type of performances or playing like he has something heavy on his mind.
Obviously there is no doubt about it, KDB had a better season and I wasnt really trying to compare the two players, but you originally said you didn't think Alli "has had a good season" which is what I was really disagreeing about. I don't think he was as good as the previous season, as I said, but I think he has set himself such a high bar for his level of performances, it was always going to be hard to maintain that over the course of a season, year after year. He's 22-year-old and will have games where he is less effective, but like he showed against Chelsea towards the end of the season with 2 goals and a man of the match display, form is temporary and class is permanent. That display against Chelsea came from more of a wide left position in a 3 behind Son Heung-Min and one of his other better displays came against Liverpool where he played more of a deep-lying midfield role in a central 3 with Winks and Eriksson during Tottenham's 4-1 win. That day he completed 83% of his passes, created two chances, won 100% of his tackles and scored a goal. Hopefully next season he can maintain a good level of consistency throughout the whole campaign so there won't be any need for any more debates such as this one. We know what he is capable of. Like you said, he has set the bar for his level of performances.
I said he hasn't had a great season. You said he hasn't had as good as the previous season. So we agree. Just worded differently.
I said he went missing far too many times in games last season. You said he will have games where he is less effective. So we agree. Just worded differently. I agree that he had the odd occasional game where he was very good, like you just pointed out. Therefore, I am not sure where are debate has come from I feel Loftus-Cheek was more impressive during his short time on the pitch with the games he was involved in during the WC vs Alli with his game time during the WC. Thats why I would have started Loftus-Cheek yesterday. Just my opinion though.
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Post by bs10er on Jul 12, 2018 17:46:30 GMT
Difficult call between Trippier, Pickford and Maguire for me. I would say Trippier just shades it. For me he was our best attacking outlet throughout the tournament. All three of these players showed the old three lions spirit in abundance though, and should be extremely proud of what they've done. Agree
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 12, 2018 19:54:39 GMT
Agree with what has been said about it being between Trippier and Maguire. In the end I’ve gone for Maguire. As a threat at set pieces he’s been colossal, but as a defender he was the best. He covered lots of mistakes from others and his ability to be a ball player who is able to bring the ball out of defence and withstand pressure from attackers makes him our best defender. Unfortunately Walker and Stones always look as if they have a mistake in them and both goals last night came from players up against them not Maguire. That’s a bit unfair for the second goal when Stones was slow but it was the fine margin that meant we lost. Trippier was a great player and has been discovered as a world class player. But to be hypercritical he is better offensively than defensively and gets away with it more in a 352 formation where he thrives. When we were under the cosh he was less dependable than Maguire imo. Both players will be in great demand and Maguire’s ability to carry the ball will make him a target for Man City I think. Great delivery at set pieces by Trippier but it was Maguire who had the opposition scared at all corners and set pieces. Hence my choice of Maguire. UTG!
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Jul 12, 2018 21:42:36 GMT
Agree with what has been said about it being between Trippier and Maguire. In the end I’ve gone for Maguire. As a threat at set pieces he’s been colossal, but as a defender he was the best. He covered lots of mistakes from others and his ability to be a ball player who is able to bring the ball out of defence and withstand pressure from attackers makes him our best defender. Unfortunately Walker and Stones always look as if they have a mistake in them and both goals last night came from players up against them not Maguire. That’s a bit unfair for the second goal when Stones was slow but it was the fine margin that meant we lost. Trippier was a great player and has been discovered as a world class player. But to be hypercritical he is better offensively than defensively and gets away with it more in a 352 formation where he thrives. When we were under the cosh he was less dependable than Maguire imo. Both players will be in great demand and Maguire’s ability to carry the ball will make him a target for Man City I think. Great delivery at set pieces by Trippier but it was Maguire who had the opposition scared at all corners and set pieces. Hence my choice of Maguire. UTG! I get what you are saying about Walker and Stones but I also think they both had great tournaments and yesterday we invited them onto us too much. Walker did well at CB considering it's not his usual position IMO. I was disappointed with the Alli and Lingard to be honest, and Henderson yesterday. I think if Alli and Lingard had that bit more about them though then that could have made a big difference. Looking forward to see Foden for Man City in an England shirt.
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Post by cj on Jul 12, 2018 22:06:01 GMT
Looking forward to see Foden for Man City in an England shirt. Yes me too. With the younger England squads doing well in tournaments, there seems to be a bright future ahead of us. But my issue is, will these bright players get game time in their 1st team to get experience and continue to develop? Loftus-Cheek had to move to Palace last season on loan and ended up impressing enough to get a squad position for the WC. But if he stayed at Chelsea, no way would he had the game time to win a place at the WC. I know Foden got some minutes For City but he and others need regular 1st team games and these youngsters are just not getting enough, if any.
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 12, 2018 22:07:33 GMT
And GGMI that’s why I think Stones and Walker had mistakes in them. Walker not overly used to the position and Stones just has. I agree both had great tournaments as did most of the team and you are right, Alli and Lingard didn’t have their best games although I thought Alli played well in the first half. But the thread was about the best England player of the tournament and I think it was between Maguire and Trippier with Maguire shading it. UTG!
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Jul 12, 2018 22:15:55 GMT
Agree with what has been said about it being between Trippier and Maguire. In the end I’ve gone for Maguire. As a threat at set pieces he’s been colossal, but as a defender he was the best. He covered lots of mistakes from others and his ability to be a ball player who is able to bring the ball out of defence and withstand pressure from attackers makes him our best defender. Unfortunately Walker and Stones always look as if they have a mistake in them and both goals last night came from players up against them not Maguire. That’s a bit unfair for the second goal when Stones was slow but it was the fine margin that meant we lost. Trippier was a great player and has been discovered as a world class player. But to be hypercritical he is better offensively than defensively and gets away with it more in a 352 formation where he thrives. When we were under the cosh he was less dependable than Maguire imo. Both players will be in great demand and Maguire’s ability to carry the ball will make him a target for Man City I think. Great delivery at set pieces by Trippier but it was Maguire who had the opposition scared at all corners and set pieces. Hence my choice of Maguire. UTG! I get what you are saying about Walker and Stones but I also think they both had great tournaments and yesterday we invited them onto us too much. Walker did well at CB considering it's not his usual position IMO. I was disappointed with the Alli and Lingard to be honest, and Henderson yesterday. I think if Alli and Lingard had that bit more about them though then that could have made a big difference. Looking forward to see Foden for Man City in an England shirt. There aren't many players that get me excited in the way Foden does. Anyone that saw his his performance in the U17 World Cup Final against Spain will know what I mean, or his performances throughout the tournament in general for that matter. A special talent.
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 12, 2018 22:34:34 GMT
Foden will find hard it to break his way into the Man City team on a regular basis just as it is for Loftus-Cheek and for many other players from the under age teams that did so well last Summer and this Summer. I suppose you could argue that those that do make it are special talents who will be able to forge an England career. My view is closer to the idea that by hoovering up all the talent so much of it is wasted, potential is unfulfilled through lack of opportunity, and the system is veered to the clubs not England FC or the well being of the young talent. They did a piece on the TV stating the clubs that the World Cup team had played for when out on loan or when on youth terms and it was really interesting. Many of them had been in non league and Leagues 1 and 2. Does that mean the system is working (insofar as these players got opportunities albeit on loan lower down the pyramid) or that it’s not working ( as shown by the fact that they might have been playing far more had they been registered with league 1 or 2 clubs)? UTG!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2018 23:00:43 GMT
For me the best england player was raheem sterling. He was the only player in free play that scared the hell out of our opponents with his incredible pace. He was the only player that ran behind opposition defences and the only player that troubled colombia and croatia outside of set pieces. Trippier,stones and maguire were fantastic at set plays but only sterling was truly effective in free play.
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Jul 12, 2018 23:04:12 GMT
Foden will find hard it to break his way into the Man City team on a regular basis just as it is for Loftus-Cheek and for many other players from the under age teams that did so well last Summer and this Summer. I suppose you could argue that those that do make it are special talents who will be able to forge an England career. My view is closer to the idea that by hoovering up all the talent so much of it is wasted, potential is unfulfilled through lack of opportunity, and the system is veered to the clubs not England FC or the well being of the young talent. They did a piece on the TV stating the clubs that the World Cup team had played for when out on loan or when on youth terms and it was really interesting. Many of them had been in non league and Leagues 1 and 2. Does that mean the system is working (insofar as these players got opportunities albeit on loan lower down the pyramid) or that it’s not working ( as shown by the fact that they might have been playing far more had they been registered with league 1 or 2 clubs)? UTG! I think Foden could be the exception to the rule, but you make some excellent points. Even Jadon Sancho (another special talent) felt he had to move from Man City to fulfil his potential and he is now starring in the Borussia Dortmund side with 1 goal and 4 assists from 7 starts. When Sancho left City Pep talked about the difficulty in integrating academy players: “I would like to (use them) but the second teams in Spain - Barcelona, Madrid they are playing in front of 40,000 people and every weekend is a second league in Germany, Spain Italy - it is so tough, so demanding,” he said. “That is the best way to improve, not training with the first team sometimes. Here, they don’t compete. They shake hands but they have to play at Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge.” Personally I think if some players had stayed at Football League clubs a little longer they may have developed even better, but that is subjective.
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Jul 13, 2018 6:51:55 GMT
Foden will find hard it to break his way into the Man City team on a regular basis just as it is for Loftus-Cheek and for many other players from the under age teams that did so well last Summer and this Summer. I suppose you could argue that those that do make it are special talents who will be able to forge an England career. My view is closer to the idea that by hoovering up all the talent so much of it is wasted, potential is unfulfilled through lack of opportunity, and the system is veered to the clubs not England FC or the well being of the young talent. They did a piece on the TV stating the clubs that the World Cup team had played for when out on loan or when on youth terms and it was really interesting. Many of them had been in non league and Leagues 1 and 2. Does that mean the system is working (insofar as these players got opportunities albeit on loan lower down the pyramid) or that it’s not working ( as shown by the fact that they might have been playing far more had they been registered with league 1 or 2 clubs)? UTG! I think Foden could be the exception to the rule, but you make some excellent points. Even Jadon Sancho (another special talent) felt he had to move from Man City to fulfil his potential and he is now starring in the Borussia Dortmund side with 1 goal and 4 assists from 7 starts. When Sancho left City Pep talked about the difficulty in integrating academy players: “I would like to (use them) but the second teams in Spain - Barcelona, Madrid they are playing in front of 40,000 people and every weekend is a second league in Germany, Spain Italy - it is so tough, so demanding,” he said. “That is the best way to improve, not training with the first team sometimes. Here, they don’t compete. They shake hands but they have to play at Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge.” Personally I think if some players had stayed at Football League clubs a little longer they may have developed even better, but that is subjective. From what I have seen of Foden, he could be our best player for a long, long time. Still early days though. At 18 years old, anything can happen.
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 13, 2018 21:18:19 GMT
Yes GGMI Foden looks the real thing. And what you say about anything can happen to 18 year olds is very true.I think another Man City starlet was Michael Johnson (?) about 15-20 years ago who was going to be the next Colin Bell (for those not old enough, Bell was a standout player in the great Man City team of the late 60s/early 70s) but he never developed, had lots of bad luck, injuries perhaps and just disappeared. Very sad for the lad. But they do need opportunities to develop and that’s much harder to provide in the PL. UTG!
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Jul 13, 2018 21:36:07 GMT
Yes GGMI Foden looks the real thing. And what you say about anything can happen to 18 year olds is very true.I think another Man City starlet was Michael Johnson (?) about 15-20 years ago who was going to be the next Colin Bell (for those not old enough, Bell was a standout player in the great Man City team of the late 60s/early 70s) but he never developed, had lots of bad luck, injuries perhaps and just disappeared. Very sad for the lad. But they do need opportunities to develop and that’s much harder to provide in the PL. UTG! Johnson was a very good player, playing for the England U21s, who suffered bad luck with injuries and he also suffered personal problems away from the pitch. He's only 30 now and was released from his contract with Manchester City in 2012, over two years since his last appearance for the club. Apparantly he now has his own estate agent business in Manchester.
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Post by warehamgas on Jul 13, 2018 21:39:35 GMT
Thanks pirate. Was it that recent, blimey! UTG!
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