Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 9:20:51 GMT
The BBC called the ExPats. Just wondered why that is the term used regarding the British abroad rather than say British Migrants in Spain.
As for voting. Depending on how long you had been out of the country (think it was 15 years) determined whether you could vote or not.
I am not saying they haven't voted for what they thought was best (no matter how well or ill informed anyone might be), but voting leave whilst living in an EU country and enjoying the benefits of being EU citizens just seem illogical to me from a starting position
Now it's hitting home that they might start losing benefits and protections and have to 'pay their way' in there (and to quote from a Brit abroad) 'Ghettos', where no Spanish is spoken...
Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't Brits been retiring to or spending winter in Spain for many years - long before open borders were introduced? Not really sure why how they choose to vote is of particular relevance. People vote on principles and what they think is right. As much as many remain voters want to believe it those who voted leave don't hate foreigners or specifically Europeans and European countries, it's just that they don't want to be under the jurisdiction of an EU superstate. Many will still look to emigrate to EU countries, apply to work in other EU countries and take their holidays in the many warm, beautiful EU countries post brexit. All well and good. But it cannot be denied that immigration INTO the UK by EU nationals was an issue in the referendum and was widely promoted by the leave campaign. The hypocrisy then of being a UK immigrant into a EU country and voting for a campaign where that was a key issue is laughable.
|
|
|
Post by stuart1974 on Feb 13, 2019 9:22:40 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 9:27:58 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 10:48:36 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't Brits been retiring to or spending winter in Spain for many years - long before open borders were introduced? Not really sure why how they choose to vote is of particular relevance. People vote on principles and what they think is right. As much as many remain voters want to believe it those who voted leave don't hate foreigners or specifically Europeans and European countries, it's just that they don't want to be under the jurisdiction of an EU superstate. Many will still look to emigrate to EU countries, apply to work in other EU countries and take their holidays in the many warm, beautiful EU countries post brexit. All well and good. But it cannot be denied that immigration INTO the UK by EU nationals was an issue in the referendum and was widely promoted by the leave campaign. The hypocrisy then of being a UK immigrant into a EU country and voting for a campaign where that was a key issue is laughable. Of course EU immigation was a big part of the referendum but not the only issue. People choosing to reside in other countries happened before and after this EU open border policy and extends worldwide. The only change should be having to apply to live elsewhere in the same way you would if you wished to reside in Australia or Canada for example. I don't see anything hypocritical of an ex pat voting leave but you know best as always.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 10:58:20 GMT
All well and good. But it cannot be denied that immigration INTO the UK by EU nationals was an issue in the referendum and was widely promoted by the leave campaign. The hypocrisy then of being a UK immigrant into a EU country and voting for a campaign where that was a key issue is laughable. Of course EU immigation was a big part of the referendum but not the only issue. People choosing to reside in other countries happened before and after this EU open border policy and extends worldwide. The only change should be having to apply to live elsewhere in the same way you would if you wished to reside in Australia or Canada for example. I don't see anything hypocritical of an ex pat voting leave but you know best as always. But Eric, you have not addressed the point I was making. I will reword it as a question. How is it not hypocritical to be living in an EU country under the rules of free movement of labour, to then use your democratic vote to try and prevent those rules applying to your home country?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 11:01:33 GMT
In the meantime, somebody asking (in reality stating the blindingly obvious) a question in Parliament.
Check out @haggis_UK’s Tweet:
|
|
|
Post by peterparker on Feb 13, 2019 11:08:16 GMT
All well and good. But it cannot be denied that immigration INTO the UK by EU nationals was an issue in the referendum and was widely promoted by the leave campaign. The hypocrisy then of being a UK immigrant into a EU country and voting for a campaign where that was a key issue is laughable. Of course EU immigation was a big part of the referendum but not the only issue. People choosing to reside in other countries happened before and after this EU open border policy and extends worldwide. The only change should be having to apply to live elsewhere in the same way you would if you wished to reside in Australia or Canada for example. I don't see anything hypocritical of an ex pat voting leave but you know best as always. of course people moved before and will move in the future and will be/have subjected to the rules of the nation and immigration.
However it's comments like this, where people have benefited from free movement and the reciprocal agreements that have gone with it.
"When I voted to leave I didn't think it would change anything for my rights to live here. We like it here and we don't want to go back but if I don't get my pension we might not have a choice."
These people may now have to adapt, or come back.
It's a bit of a case of Ignorance is Bliss, except when it's just ignorance
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 11:08:41 GMT
Of course EU immigation was a big part of the referendum but not the only issue. People choosing to reside in other countries happened before and after this EU open border policy and extends worldwide. The only change should be having to apply to live elsewhere in the same way you would if you wished to reside in Australia or Canada for example. I don't see anything hypocritical of an ex pat voting leave but you know best as always. But Eric, you have not addressed the point I was making. I will reword it as a question. How is it not hypocritical to be living in an EU country under the rules of free movement of labour, to then use your democratic vote to try and prevent those rules applying to your home country? Most people choosing to retire to Spain would have done so regardless of free movement. The exception is obviously that without free movement they would have had to go through an application process. They benefitted from free movement by not having to complete paperwork - does the EU imposed freedom of movement justify someone giving up their principles and changing their vote? I think not. I also do not think voting leave was hypocritical. The bottom line is you will seek any avenue to criticise or mock anyone who chooses to vote differently to you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 11:15:43 GMT
Of course EU immigation was a big part of the referendum but not the only issue. People choosing to reside in other countries happened before and after this EU open border policy and extends worldwide. The only change should be having to apply to live elsewhere in the same way you would if you wished to reside in Australia or Canada for example. I don't see anything hypocritical of an ex pat voting leave but you know best as always. of course people moved before and will move in the future and will be/have subjected to the rules of the nation and immigration.
However it's comments like this, where people have benefited from free movement and the reciprocal agreements that have gone with it.
"When I voted to leave I didn't think it would change anything for my rights to live here. We like it here and we don't want to go back but if I don't get my pension we might not have a choice."
These people may now have to adapt, or come back.
It's a bit of a case of Ignorance is Bliss, except when it's just ignorance
Not being an ex pat myself (and so never having had the need to investigate) what did the person in question mean by "if I don't get my pension"? Has the government indicated that ex pats living in th EU lose their right to a state pension post brexit? If so what happens to Brits living abroad outside the EU?
|
|
|
Post by stuart1974 on Feb 13, 2019 11:22:50 GMT
But Eric, you have not addressed the point I was making. I will reword it as a question. How is it not hypocritical to be living in an EU country under the rules of free movement of labour, to then use your democratic vote to try and prevent those rules applying to your home country? Most people choosing to retire to Spain would have done so regardless of free movement. The exception is obviously that without free movement they would have had to go through an application process. They benefitted from free movement by not having to complete paperwork - does the EU imposed freedom of movement justify someone giving up their principles and changing their vote? I think not. I also do not think voting leave was hypocritical. The bottom line is you will seek any avenue to criticise or mock anyone who chooses to vote differently to you. It isn't just paperwork though, there would be no guarantees of being allowed, otherwise it would be free movement. I knew two women, one Canadian and one Australian, married to British citizens, who had to jump through hoops to even get 'indefinite leave to remain'. Look how the interpreters in Iraq and Afghanistan were treated despite promises and the work they did. Immigration isca catch all term that has become a political football whereas it is much more nuances. What did you think of the comments during the referendum about Turkish accession?
|
|
|
Post by peterparker on Feb 13, 2019 11:29:12 GMT
of course people moved before and will move in the future and will be/have subjected to the rules of the nation and immigration.
However it's comments like this, where people have benefited from free movement and the reciprocal agreements that have gone with it.
"When I voted to leave I didn't think it would change anything for my rights to live here. We like it here and we don't want to go back but if I don't get my pension we might not have a choice."
These people may now have to adapt, or come back.
It's a bit of a case of Ignorance is Bliss, except when it's just ignorance
Not being an ex pat myself (and so never having had the need to investigate) what did the person in question mean by "if I don't get my pension"? Has the government indicated that ex pats living in th EU lose their right to a state pension post brexit? If so what happens to Brits living abroad outside the EU? Not sure about other countries, but the comment was more of a Spain specific thing. You cannot hold dual citizenship in Spain, so if a Brit in Spain wants to apply for Spanish Citizenship in order to remain then they may lose access to their British pension. On the flip side Healthcare is not mentioned and if they remain British and stay in Spain, they may receive their pension but have to fork out for healthcare
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 11:33:49 GMT
Most people choosing to retire to Spain would have done so regardless of free movement. The exception is obviously that without free movement they would have had to go through an application process. They benefitted from free movement by not having to complete paperwork - does the EU imposed freedom of movement justify someone giving up their principles and changing their vote? I think not. I also do not think voting leave was hypocritical. The bottom line is you will seek any avenue to criticise or mock anyone who chooses to vote differently to you. It isn't just paperwork though, there would be no guarantees of being allowed, otherwise it would be free movement. I knew two women, one Canadian and one Australian, married to British citizens, who had to jump through hoops to even get 'indefinite leave to remain'. Look how the interpreters in Iraq and Afghanistan were treated despite promises and the work they did. Immigration isca catch all term that has become a political football whereas it is much more nuances. What did you think of the comments during the referendum about Turkish accession? Indeed Stuart. Eric, you said "Most people choosing to retire to Spain would have done so regardless of free movement." I am sure that's right. The host country being a welcoming country. Is it not hypocritical still to vote for an outcome that would absolutely make that same ambition nigh impossible to do likewise in the UK?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 12:16:32 GMT
It isn't just paperwork though, there would be no guarantees of being allowed, otherwise it would be free movement. I knew two women, one Canadian and one Australian, married to British citizens, who had to jump through hoops to even get 'indefinite leave to remain'. Look how the interpreters in Iraq and Afghanistan were treated despite promises and the work they did. Immigration isca catch all term that has become a political football whereas it is much more nuances. What did you think of the comments during the referendum about Turkish accession? Indeed Stuart. Eric, you said "Most people choosing to retire to Spain would have done so regardless of free movement." I am sure that's right. The host country being a welcoming country. Is it not hypocritical still to vote for an outcome that would absolutely make that same ambition nigh impossible to do likewise in the UK? Why would the UK need to be unwelcoming? If someone wishes to come in and they have either a required skill or sufficient wealth to reside or retire here without needing housing, benefits etc then why wouldn't they be welcomed? Voting leave wasn't just about immigration but the part it did have to play in the vote was to curtail the current, unregulated, unmonitored free for all.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 12:27:17 GMT
Not being an ex pat myself (and so never having had the need to investigate) what did the person in question mean by "if I don't get my pension"? Has the government indicated that ex pats living in th EU lose their right to a state pension post brexit? If so what happens to Brits living abroad outside the EU? Not sure about other countries, but the comment was more of a Spain specific thing. You cannot hold dual citizenship in Spain, so if a Brit in Spain wants to apply for Spanish Citizenship in order to remain then they may lose access to their British pension. On the flip side Healthcare is not mentioned and if they remain British and stay in Spain, they may receive their pension but have to fork out for healthcare Doesn't this come back to the WA and May needing to ensure that protection for EU citizens living in the UK are matched like for like for UK citizens currently living in the EU. When we finally leave everyone should have a clear idea going forward on how to go about seeking to reside elsewhere and exactly what rights they do and don't have.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 12:30:43 GMT
Indeed Stuart. Eric, you said "Most people choosing to retire to Spain would have done so regardless of free movement." I am sure that's right. The host country being a welcoming country. Is it not hypocritical still to vote for an outcome that would absolutely make that same ambition nigh impossible to do likewise in the UK? Why would the UK need to be unwelcoming? If someone wishes to come in and they have either a required skill or sufficient wealth to reside or retire here without needing housing, benefits etc then why wouldn't they be welcomed? Voting leave wasn't just about immigration but the part it did have to play in the vote was to curtail the current, unregulated, unmonitored free for all. Is there not a threshold demand of being having to prove an income of £30,000 before even being considered for residency in the UK under the immigration bill going through Parliament? If this was applied to our people wishing to retire to Spain, for example, I very much doubt the "average" retiree would meet that threshold. Eric, you can dance on a sixpence all you like but the truth is out there. The UK, because of the Leave vote, is becoming an unwelcoming place for immigrants despite the fact they play a key role in delivering public services, play a vital role in back filling our skills gaps in industry. The truth is I bet the UK skilled expat working abroad, perhaps benefiting by free movement, did not vote leave. The people in Spain who are retired and not economically active did, apparently. Hypocrisy in the extreme by people who selfishly vote for something that will adversely affect younger people who can benefit from free movement.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 12:34:31 GMT
Most people choosing to retire to Spain would have done so regardless of free movement. The exception is obviously that without free movement they would have had to go through an application process. They benefitted from free movement by not having to complete paperwork - does the EU imposed freedom of movement justify someone giving up their principles and changing their vote? I think not. I also do not think voting leave was hypocritical. The bottom line is you will seek any avenue to criticise or mock anyone who chooses to vote differently to you. It isn't just paperwork though, there would be no guarantees of being allowed, otherwise it would be free movement. I knew two women, one Canadian and one Australian, married to British citizens, who had to jump through hoops to even get 'indefinite leave to remain'. Look how the interpreters in Iraq and Afghanistan were treated despite promises and the work they did. Immigration isca catch all term that has become a political football whereas it is much more nuances. What did you think of the comments during the referendum about Turkish accession? The immigration system is a mess and the Australian and Canadian examples you give would surely be the same regardless of the Brexit vote. I can't understand why the interpreters you mention have been treated so poorly when there are so many examples of bad apples managing to enter illegally and being allowed to stay whereas these guys served the UK at great personal risk. Leave voters get tarnished by the likes of Oldie as all being racist bigots. I take a different view. I would prefer to see fairness applied to potential immigrants from all over the world and not give preferential treatment to those who are members of the political club that is the EU. The Turkish issue has rumbled on for so long and to be honest I didn't take much notice of it during the referendum debates and it had no bearing on my vote.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 12:44:15 GMT
Why would the UK need to be unwelcoming? If someone wishes to come in and they have either a required skill or sufficient wealth to reside or retire here without needing housing, benefits etc then why wouldn't they be welcomed? Voting leave wasn't just about immigration but the part it did have to play in the vote was to curtail the current, unregulated, unmonitored free for all. Is there not a threshold demand of being having to prove an income of £30,000 before even being considered for residency in the UK under the immigration bill going through Parliament? If this was applied to our people wishing to retire to Spain, for example, I very much doubt the "average" retiree would meet that threshold. Eric, you can dance on a sixpence all you like but the truth is out there. The UK, because of the Leave vote, is becoming an unwelcoming place for immigrants despite the fact they play a key role in delivering public services, play a vital role in back filling our skills gaps in industry. The truth is I bet the UK skilled expat working abroad, perhaps benefiting by free movement, did not vote leave. The people in Spain who are retired and not economically active did, apparently. Hypocrisy in the extreme by people who selfishly vote for something that will adversely affect younger people who can benefit from free movement. The UK may well be seen as unwelcoming to other EU citizens at the moment (possibly less so in the longer term) but I don't see why that should be the case for potential migrants from the rest of the world. For them what has changed. The world is more than just the EU so why are you happy that we discriminate against people from outside the club? If we are seen as unwelcoming perhaps that is partly due to the pro remain camp shouting loudly from the rooftops that the vote was because 52% of the UK population is racist when it clearly isn't. We'll have to agree to disagree on the supposed hypocrisy. You seem to think these ex pat voters in question voted purely for selfish reasons and not because they genuinely felt it was best for the UK where their kids, grandchildren and other family still reside? That's quite an assumption and generalisation you make.
|
|
|
Post by peterparker on Feb 13, 2019 12:44:33 GMT
Not sure about other countries, but the comment was more of a Spain specific thing. You cannot hold dual citizenship in Spain, so if a Brit in Spain wants to apply for Spanish Citizenship in order to remain then they may lose access to their British pension. On the flip side Healthcare is not mentioned and if they remain British and stay in Spain, they may receive their pension but have to fork out for healthcare Doesn't this come back to the WA and May needing to ensure that protection for EU citizens living in the UK are matched like for like for UK citizens currently living in the EU. When we finally leave everyone should have a clear idea going forward on how to go about seeking to reside elsewhere and exactly what rights they do and don't have. That depends on a deal though doesn't it, which looks increasingly unlikely at the moment, and lets not forget there are many advocates of No Deal who have either wilfully deceived people or just don't care about them
|
|
|
Post by stuart1974 on Feb 13, 2019 12:53:22 GMT
It isn't just paperwork though, there would be no guarantees of being allowed, otherwise it would be free movement. I knew two women, one Canadian and one Australian, married to British citizens, who had to jump through hoops to even get 'indefinite leave to remain'. Look how the interpreters in Iraq and Afghanistan were treated despite promises and the work they did. Immigration isca catch all term that has become a political football whereas it is much more nuances. What did you think of the comments during the referendum about Turkish accession? The immigration system is a mess and the Australian and Canadian examples you give would surely be the same regardless of the Brexit vote. I can't understand why the interpreters you mention have been treated so poorly when there are so many examples of bad apples managing to enter illegally and being allowed to stay whereas these guys served the UK at great personal risk. Leave voters get tarnished by the likes of Oldie as all being racist bigots. I take a different view. I would prefer to see fairness applied to potential immigrants from all over the world and not give preferential treatment to those who are members of the political club that is the EU. The Turkish issue has rumbled on for so long and to be honest I didn't take much notice of it during the referendum debates and it had no bearing on my vote. I mentioned the case of two friends of mine because as third country it shows how difficult it can be even when things are clearly fine to any reasonable person. Glad you didn't fall for Boris' misunderstanding 😎
|
|
|
Post by peterparker on Feb 13, 2019 13:17:09 GMT
Liam Fox getting a kicking in parliament
Shadow international trade secretary Barry Gardiner says that yesterday it was said of the 40 agreements Liam Fox said would be ready one minute after midnight on Brexit day, only four have been signed, nine are off track, 19 significantly off track, four are not possible to be completed by March 2019 and two aren't even being negotiated.
"It will not be possible to fully replicate the terms of these agreements," he adds, asking Dr Fox if he will set out for each country what reasons have been given for objecting to a rollover of a trade deal, and what concessions have been given offering preferential access to UK markets.
|
|