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Post by peterparker on Oct 18, 2018 16:25:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 17:16:10 GMT
And they recently bombed kids on a school trip. Killed 40 I think. But that's alright, Trump makes money, personally, selling real estate to them. |
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Oct 18, 2018 18:49:11 GMT
And they recently bombed kids on a school trip. Killed 40 I think. But that's alright, Trump makes money, personally, selling real estate to them. They bombed a market in Yemen, killing at least 30 people. They've killed thousands of civilians while bombing hospitals, schools, mosques, and weddings. The United Nations has now said there are just three months left to avoid what could be the "worst famine in 100 years". There are now 13 million people at risk of starvation in Yemen where even medicine and medical supplies are extremely scarce. |
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Oct 18, 2018 19:43:01 GMT
UK military sales to Saudi Arabia increased by two thirds in 2017 from 2016 - an increase of more than £450m.
The real figure could be much higher as the number of so-called "secret" open licences doubled across the 12 months, from 21 to 44.
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Post by aghast on Oct 18, 2018 20:41:35 GMT
Saudi Arabia, famed for human rights abuses, slavery, torture, mass murder, and lots of oil, seems to get away with it on the world stage.
Why? Beyond me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 21:36:47 GMT
Saudi Arabia, famed for human rights abuses, slavery, torture, mass murder, and lots of oil, seems to get away with it on the world stage. Why? Beyond me. In a word. Oil. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 4:44:01 GMT
And they recently bombed kids on a school trip. Killed 40 I think. But that's alright, Trump makes money, personally, selling real estate to them. They bombed a market in Yemen, killing at least 30 people. They've killed thousands of civilians while bombing hospitals, schools, mosques, and weddings. The United Nations has now said there are just three months left to avoid what could be the "worst famine in 100 years". There are now 13 million people at risk of starvation in Yemen where even medicine and medical supplies are extremely scarce. I don't wish to sound as though I am defending Saudi........but if the Iranian backed people in Yeman stopped lobbing ballistic missiles at Saudi cites...well, that may help. It's a two-way street as always. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Oct 19, 2018 6:16:03 GMT
9 of the 11 terrorists responsible for 9/11 and Mr Bin Laden himself were from......
You guessed it.
Yet we bombed the sh** out of a completely different country.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 6:47:24 GMT
9 of the 11 terrorists responsible for 9/11 and Mr Bin Laden himself were from...... You guessed it. Yet we bombed the sh** out of a completely different country. Funny that. Saddam, like the Shah of Iran and his successors, was a nasty corrupt bastard. The narrative that they supported terrorist activity is a western one. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 6:57:19 GMT
9 of the 11 terrorists responsible for 9/11 and Mr Bin Laden himself were from...... You guessed it. Yet we bombed the sh** out of a completely different country. Funny that. Saddam, like the Shah of Iran and his successors, was a nasty corrupt bastard. The narrative that they supported terrorist activity is a western one. No mention of the current nasty corrupt bastards in Iran then? That's the same Iran that is funding and arming Yeman against Saudi? I'm no expert on Islam, but when you converted to Islam, did you become a 'generic' muslim, or did you have to choose one of the flavours (Sunni, Shiite?). If you did have to choose, I reckon I can easily figure out with flavour you had to become ! The other point, just because the bombers came from Saudi, as did Bin Laden, do you think it's acceptable to bomb Saudi just because of that? Or do you think it's better, as indeed happened, that we went after the people involved instead? Are you aware that if Afghanistan had given up Bin Laden and his motley crew, then we probably wouldn't have attacked Afghanistan? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 7:09:51 GMT
Funny that. Saddam, like the Shah of Iran and his successors, was a nasty corrupt bastard. The narrative that they supported terrorist activity is a western one. No mention of the current nasty corrupt bastards in Iran then? That's the same Iran that is funding and arming Yeman against Saudi? I'm no expert on Islam, but when you converted to Islam, did you become a 'generic' muslim, or did you have to choose one of the flavours (Sunni, Shiite?). If you did have to choose, I reckon I can easily figure out with flavour you had to become ! The other point, just because the bombers came from Saudi, as did Bin Laden, do you think it's acceptable to bomb Saudi just because of that? Or do you think it's better, as indeed happened, that we went after the people involved instead? Are you aware that if Afghanistan had given up Bin Laden and his motley crew, then we probably wouldn't have attacked Afghanistan? Point one I said the Shah and his successors. Point two. I regretted using my personal experience during past debates. But as you seem determined to raise it, for clarity, my "conversion" was a paper one only, allowing me to marry my wife for a third time, and thus allowing my first son the benefit of dual nationality. Which was the sole purpose. It was a Shia ceremony btw. In terms of Bin Laden. The fault lays with the Americans, who used Saudi Arabia, amongst others, to funnel arms to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan to fight the Russians. If we, the West, had not done that it's quite possible the whole recent history of the area may have been very different. |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 19, 2018 7:37:12 GMT
No mention of the current nasty corrupt bastards in Iran then? That's the same Iran that is funding and arming Yeman against Saudi? I'm no expert on Islam, but when you converted to Islam, did you become a 'generic' muslim, or did you have to choose one of the flavours (Sunni, Shiite?). If you did have to choose, I reckon I can easily figure out with flavour you had to become ! The other point, just because the bombers came from Saudi, as did Bin Laden, do you think it's acceptable to bomb Saudi just because of that? Or do you think it's better, as indeed happened, that we went after the people involved instead? Are you aware that if Afghanistan had given up Bin Laden and his motley crew, then we probably wouldn't have attacked Afghanistan? Point one I said the Shah and his successors. Point two. I regretted using my personal experience during past debates. But as you seem determined to raise it, for clarity, my "conversion" was a paper one only, allowing me to marry my wife for a third time, and thus allowing my first son the benefit of dual nationality. Which was the sole purpose. It was a Shia ceremony btw. In terms of Bin Laden. The fault lays with the Americans, who used Saudi Arabia, amongst others, to funnel arms to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan to fight the Russians. If we, the West, had not done that it's quite possible the whole recent history of the area may have been very different. I can't agree with your bin Laden summary, he was grateful for the support ('give me the Koran and a stinger missile' was the simplistic view to defeating the Soviet Union). His hatred came from the 1991 Gulf War when western (ie non muslim) forces were allowed to be stationed near holy sites by the Saudi government, and female Americsn soldiers especially. Nobby is correct that had the Taliban given up bin Laden then the initial Afghan invasion would not have been needed. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 8:58:13 GMT
Point one I said the Shah and his successors. Point two. I regretted using my personal experience during past debates. But as you seem determined to raise it, for clarity, my "conversion" was a paper one only, allowing me to marry my wife for a third time, and thus allowing my first son the benefit of dual nationality. Which was the sole purpose. It was a Shia ceremony btw. In terms of Bin Laden. The fault lays with the Americans, who used Saudi Arabia, amongst others, to funnel arms to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan to fight the Russians. If we, the West, had not done that it's quite possible the whole recent history of the area may have been very different. I can't agree with your bin Laden summary, he was grateful for the support ('give me the Koran and a stinger missile' was the simplistic view to defeating the Soviet Union). His hatred came from the 1991 Gulf War when western (ie non muslim) forces were allowed to be stationed near holy sites by the Saudi government, and female Americsn soldiers especially. Nobby is correct that had the Taliban given up bin Laden then the initial Afghan invasion would not have been needed. Then we must disagree on this point Bin Laden was a nobody until he was used as a tool to over throw the Russians in Afghanistan. I say again if we had not armed him and the groups that he came to lead then it may never have happened. In the 1991 Gulf War, which holy sites were Western Forces stationed near? On giving up Bin Laden. I struggle with the concept that people do not understand that a fanatical, fundamentalist group like the Taliban would hand over someone who has just inflicted huge damage on their enemy. Why would they? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 9:56:09 GMT
I can't agree with your bin Laden summary, he was grateful for the support ('give me the Koran and a stinger missile' was the simplistic view to defeating the Soviet Union). His hatred came from the 1991 Gulf War when western (ie non muslim) forces were allowed to be stationed near holy sites by the Saudi government, and female Americsn soldiers especially. Nobby is correct that had the Taliban given up bin Laden then the initial Afghan invasion would not have been needed. Then we must disagree on this point Bin Laden was a nobody until he was used as a tool to over throw the Russians in Afghanistan. I say again if we had not armed him and the groups that he came to lead then it may never have happened. In the 1991 Gulf War, which holy sites were Western Forces stationed near? On giving up Bin Laden. I struggle with the concept that people do not understand that a fanatical, fundamentalist group like the Taliban would hand over someone who has just inflicted huge damage on their enemy. Why would they? Sorry Oldie, but if you ever bother to read the early ramblings of OBL you'll find that it was indeed the stationing on 'foreign' troops in Saudi that got him upset. |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 19, 2018 11:52:03 GMT
I can't agree with your bin Laden summary, he was grateful for the support ('give me the Koran and a stinger missile' was the simplistic view to defeating the Soviet Union). His hatred came from the 1991 Gulf War when western (ie non muslim) forces were allowed to be stationed near holy sites by the Saudi government, and female Americsn soldiers especially. Nobby is correct that had the Taliban given up bin Laden then the initial Afghan invasion would not have been needed. Then we must disagree on this point Bin Laden was a nobody until he was used as a tool to over throw the Russians in Afghanistan. I say again if we had not armed him and the groups that he came to lead then it may never have happened. In the 1991 Gulf War, which holy sites were Western Forces stationed near? On giving up Bin Laden. I struggle with the concept that people do not understand that a fanatical, fundamentalist group like the Taliban would hand over someone who has just inflicted huge damage on their enemy. Why would they? OBL was a rich kid looking for adventure and jihad, he was involved in some funding but I wouldn't overplay his usefulness to US and other's involvement in Afghanistan, he channelled money and arms from various sources including Arabic and Pakistani. The sites included Mecca and Medina, but was Saudi Arabia in general. There were around 600,000 Western troops there at the time. I agree that the Taliban were not going to give him up, only that had they, there would have been no intervention, at least on the scale we saw in 2001. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 12:32:18 GMT
Then we must disagree on this point Bin Laden was a nobody until he was used as a tool to over throw the Russians in Afghanistan. I say again if we had not armed him and the groups that he came to lead then it may never have happened. In the 1991 Gulf War, which holy sites were Western Forces stationed near? On giving up Bin Laden. I struggle with the concept that people do not understand that a fanatical, fundamentalist group like the Taliban would hand over someone who has just inflicted huge damage on their enemy. Why would they? OBL was a rich kid looking for adventure and jihad, he was involved in some funding but I wouldn't overplay his usefulness to US and other's involvement in Afghanistan, he channelled money and arms from various sources including Arabic and Pakistani. The sites included Mecca and Medina, but was Saudi Arabia in general. There were around 600,000 Western troops there at the time. I agree that the Taliban were not going to give him up, only that had they, there would have been no intervention, at least on the scale we saw in 2001. The whole Muslim world objected to the presence of a large western force in Saudi Arabia. Given the geography of Saudi Arabia and it's borders, it wasn't because we had 600,000 troops near Mecca or Medina specifically, logistics would cause them to be to close to anything for Muslims. The point of highlighting western tactics in Afghanistan is to show how dangerous it can be to pick sides to suit your agenda. Bin Laden was but one protagonist, within the United Mujahideen. To save me typing "Many Muslims from other countries assisted the various mujahideen groups in Afghanistan. Some groups of these veterans became significant players in later conflicts in and around the Muslim world. Osama bin Laden, originally from a wealthy family in Saudi Arabia, was a prominent organizer and financier of an all-Arab Islamist group of foreign volunteers; his Maktab al-Khadamat funnelled money, arms, and Muslim fighters from around the Muslim world into Afghanistan, with the assistance and support of the Saudi and Pakistani governments.[12] These foreign fighters became known as "Afghan Arabs" and their efforts were coordinated by Abdullah Yusuf Azzam." And then "However, the mujahideen did not establish a united government, and many of the larger mujahideen groups began to fight each other over power in Kabul. After several years of devastating fighting, a village mullah named Mohammed Omar organized a new armed movement with the backing of Pakistan. This movement became known as the Taliban ("students" in Pashto), referring to how most Taliban had grown up in refugee camps in Pakistan during the 1980s and were taught in the Saudi-backed Wahhabi madrassas, religious schools known for teaching a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. Veteran mujahideen confronted this radical splinter group in 1996" During all this, the USA and the UK were selling arms and providing military support to the Saudis, who in turn funneled the same to one of their own nationals in Afghanistan. Reagan actually hosted the Mujahideen leadership in the White House. The rest is history. We keep doing it, and it keeps blowing up in our faces. We nearly did it in Syria, we definitely did it in Libya. Time we looked in the mirror and ask why are we hated or distrusted so much by the Muslim world. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 15:55:10 GMT
You will find Oldie that we actually trained some of them in Scotland. Yep, the Muslim world must really hate us for saving so many Muslims in Bosnia, Kosova etc. And how dare we liberate Kuwait from Saddam eh! If the Muslim world hates us so much, then why do so many of them want to live in Europe?
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Post by axegas on Oct 19, 2018 20:52:24 GMT
You will find Oldie that we actually trained some of them in Scotland. Yep, the Muslim world must really hate us for saving so many Muslims in Bosnia, Kosova etc. And how dare we liberate Kuwait from Saddam eh! If the Muslim world hates us so much, then why do so many of them want to live in Europe? It depends which “Muslim” world you are referring to. Iraqis and Iranians hate our guts and I’m sure some living in Yemen, Syria and Afghanistan aren’t keen on us after recent events either. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 21:38:04 GMT
You will find Oldie that we actually trained some of them in Scotland. Yep, the Muslim world must really hate us for saving so many Muslims in Bosnia, Kosova etc. And how dare we liberate Kuwait from Saddam eh! If the Muslim world hates us so much, then why do so many of them want to live in Europe? Because we screwed their home areas, countries, so badly they can no longer live there without fear of destitution or violence. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 21:48:36 GMT
You will find Oldie that we actually trained some of them in Scotland. Yep, the Muslim world must really hate us for saving so many Muslims in Bosnia, Kosova etc. And how dare we liberate Kuwait from Saddam eh! If the Muslim world hates us so much, then why do so many of them want to live in Europe? It depends which “Muslim” world you are referring to. Iraqis and Iranians hate our guts and I’m sure some living in Yemen, Syria and Afghanistan aren’t keen on us after recent events either. It was Oldie who said the "muslim world" hates us, not me. |
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