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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 7:12:06 GMT
What your article fails to emphasise it that this was one person acting alone nobody encouraged him or joined in. I think we should take some comfort from that. It shows that rovers fans are overwhelmingly not racist. I have tried to point that out Royal Blue in mentioning how many of us actually sent Jason messages of support. I did another version for the News Hub, a new online journalism outlet, which included a few more lines about how Rovers fans are generally tolerant and were praised only the other week at Eastleigh. My whole point is that Twitter sets the agenda these days, not blogs on the Bristol Post website, which is why we should take extra care of what we say and how we act. Jason Brown's message was retweeted 789 times. That's twice as many times as I have twitter followers! Also, for those saying it is a storm in a tea cup that will quickly blow over, that might be, but someone at work told me today there was a sizeable piece on this incident on the South East News (equivalent of Points West throughout the South East). Where did this come from? They didn't pick it up from a blog in Bristol, they picked it up from a tweet. If anyone wants to read my News hub piece, which is slightly longer and points out why I love our club, it's here: www.the-newshub.com/stories/the-racist-shout-from-a-non-league-terrace-that-travelled-the-worldps. I have tweeted Jason Brown to ask him to explain exactly what he heard and am awaiting a reply, though I don't hold out much hope. I think perhaps he is only letting that information be known to the authorities.I agree with this, do victims of other crimes have to publically say the details of what happened to them? No, they are protected, an injustice is alleged to have been committed Jason deserves our respectfullness to his wishes. He is the victim here. A few would only doubt his word anyway judging by various comments over the last few days. But feel free to check out various media sources from BRFC fans over the last few days if you want to get some snippets of what was called out to him. It may not appear much to some, but others, myself included find them dispicable and totally unacceptable.
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Post by mehewmagic on Oct 10, 2014 10:54:18 GMT
I have tried to point that out Royal Blue in mentioning how many of us actually sent Jason messages of support. I did another version for the News Hub, a new online journalism outlet, which included a few more lines about how Rovers fans are generally tolerant and were praised only the other week at Eastleigh. My whole point is that Twitter sets the agenda these days, not blogs on the Bristol Post website, which is why we should take extra care of what we say and how we act. Jason Brown's message was retweeted 789 times. That's twice as many times as I have twitter followers! Also, for those saying it is a storm in a tea cup that will quickly blow over, that might be, but someone at work told me today there was a sizeable piece on this incident on the South East News (equivalent of Points West throughout the South East). Where did this come from? They didn't pick it up from a blog in Bristol, they picked it up from a tweet. If anyone wants to read my News hub piece, which is slightly longer and points out why I love our club, it's here: www.the-newshub.com/stories/the-racist-shout-from-a-non-league-terrace-that-travelled-the-worldps. I have tweeted Jason Brown to ask him to explain exactly what he heard and am awaiting a reply, though I don't hold out much hope. I think perhaps he is only letting that information be known to the authorities.I agree with this, do victims of other crimes have to publically say the details of what happened to them? No, they are protected, an injustice is alleged to have been committed Jason deserves our respectfullness to his wishes. He is the victim here. A few would only doubt his word anyway judging by various comments over the last few days. But feel free to check out various media sources from BRFC fans over the last few days if you want to get some snippets of what was called out to him. It may not appear much to some, but others, myself included find them dispicable and totally unacceptable. ok, so IF, big IF, the person (by the way, interesting that in Jason's ITV interview he CLEARLY says 'person' and not persons, so not sure why some people are saying persons...) said something along the line of 'you fat ######## maltezer head', why won;t he say that and then say I found that to be racist. wouldn't that clear it up a bit instead of speculation? to be clear I am NOT questioning his right to believe that was racist or for the Police system to record it as a racist incident. But it would allow others to make their own mind up in THEIR EYES to whether that is racist or a loud mouth shouting some foul language and abuse that he did not believe was racist. I'm not as down with the kids as I used to be but I believe that 'Maltezer head' is not a phrase that has been clearly associated with racism in the past, unlike say 'choc ice', 'coconut' or 'Bounty bar', although it is interesting that Rio Ferdinard can publicly call Ashley Cole the former. just to reiterate, if Jason brown feels he has been racially abused then that's something we will listen to and investigate, but surely each individual is allowed to look at what was said and make up their own mind, and also lay off the steward until we know what happened. is it not beyond the bounds of possibility that the steward did not intervene because he didn;t think it was racist, and then did intervene when a person on the pitch told him he did feel it was racist? each person on this planet has a different opinion on what is, or is not, racist abuse. And if anyone wants to know I have been there, got the T-shirt, and so has my wife. My children will be soon as well (one is already on the cusp as even 3 years old as spotting that she is 'different').
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Post by curlywurly on Oct 10, 2014 11:27:48 GMT
He has reported the incident and one might assume that this includes what he heard. He has chosen not to broadcast this detail via social media - which is probably for the better. Regardless of what was said, the law classes this as a racist incident if he (or anyone else for that matter) perceives it to be. That said, I think Nick has stretched the use of his artistic licence on this one. totally appreciate that the law reports this as a racist incident because the complainant regards it as a racial abuse. It is an important facet of our system. But don't understand why you write that not saying what was said is "probably for the better". why? since when has any censorship (even self-censorship) of the truth been good for any situation in history? what we are currently left with is an allegation that isn't being made public, yet hundreds of column inches and various media interviews are reporting the 'story' but not reporting what was said. Bizarre. I honestly don't get this. What is there to hide? Man has story, but won't tell you the story. This wouldn't happen in any other situation. The truth shall set you free? I said "probably for the better" because I don't see the point in sharing all of the details / evidence via social media. If Jason Brown chose to share the exact words he heard, that would be up to him - he certainly has no obligation to share it publicly. It is sufficient, in my opinion, that he broadcast the fact that he felt he was being racially abused, but more importantly that he reported it to both the match officials & police. I can understand why Jason Brown shared his indignation on Tuesday evening, and there has been an overwhelming response from many condemning racism in general and the individual responsible for the incident in particular. There has also been some bloodletting (particularly on the other forum) where opposing views have been aired. But my point is, why should every one of us know precisely what was said - we have no "right" to know. Indeed, if all of the detail was emblazoned over the public media, it may prejudice any later legal proceedings. I cannot agree that "it wouldn't happen in any other situation", because it happens in almost every situation where there is a potential legal case involved. [EDIT: Just read the posts above, which make a similar point]
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 11:48:48 GMT
If someone is not explicitly informed of what is acceptable and what is not how is a person supposed to modify their behavior?
Take the example from a few days ago: coloured.
Now, its not so long ago this was not an uncommon way to describe someone black. It may or may not have negative connotations but it was widely used and deemed 'acceptable' when I was younger. Now I am better informed, I would not say it now. I don't consider myself to be racist, but how am I to be educated about acceptable terminology if no one tells me!?
In a million years I wouldn't have thought calling someone a maltezer would be considered racist. (if that's what was said). Id never heard of choc ice before the Cole/ Ferdinand thing and I've never heard of the other terms MM mentioned!
Surely the best way to stop racism is through not accepting it, reporting it and then educating people.
For me the last part is the most important and its the part that's currently missing.
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Post by curlywurly on Oct 10, 2014 14:11:09 GMT
If someone is not explicitly informed of what is acceptable and what is not how is a person supposed to modify their behavior? Take the example from a few days ago: coloured. Now, its not so long ago this was not an uncommon way to describe someone black. It may or may not have negative connotations but it was widely used and deemed 'acceptable' when I was younger. Now I am better informed, I would not say it now. I don't consider myself to be racist, but how am I to be educated about acceptable terminology if no one tells me!? In a million years I wouldn't have thought calling someone a maltezer would be considered racist. (if that's what was said). Id never heard of choc ice before the Cole/ Ferdinand thing and I've never heard of the other terms MM mentioned! Surely the best way to stop racism is through not accepting it, reporting it and then educating people. For me the last part is the most important and its the part that's currently missing. My understanding of the way the law works will not give you the explicit answer. There is no list of banned or acceptable words, but it is how words are used. The CPS website gives the best advice I can see and here is a little bit of it: "Racist or religious incidents The Stephen Lawrence Inquiry Report was published in February 1999, and defined a racist incident as: ˜... any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person."
We accept this definition.
We define a religious incident as: "Any incident which is believed to be motivated because of a person's religion or perceived religion, by the victim or any other person".
Both definitions help us to identify all racist or religious incidents on our case files to make sure we take the racist or religious element into account when we make decisions about prosecuting.
Not all racist or religious incidents are criminal offences."
The full guidance can be found at: www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/rrpbcrbook.html#a02In establishing a prosecution there is a question of intent e.g."did the individual intend to incite racial hatred" and/or likelihood e.g."whether intended or not, were the individuals words or deeds likely to incite racial hatred" I don't know, and it is a matter to be investigated, but this does perhaps give an answer as to why the steward didn't act at the time. He may have perceived the words and actions at the time not to have been offensive, abusive or racially motivated, whereas Jason Brown clearly did perceive this.
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Post by Cantankerous Gas on Oct 10, 2014 14:24:40 GMT
edit: wrong thread
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Post by curlywurly on Oct 10, 2014 15:24:28 GMT
Never mind. Some more gratuitous sexual exploitation didn't go amiss on this thread!
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Post by buckrippers on Oct 10, 2014 16:50:54 GMT
I agree with this, do victims of other crimes have to publically say the details of what happened to them? No, they are protected, an injustice is alleged to have been committed Jason deserves our respectfullness to his wishes. He is the victim here. A few would only doubt his word anyway judging by various comments over the last few days. But feel free to check out various media sources from BRFC fans over the last few days if you want to get some snippets of what was called out to him. It may not appear much to some, but others, myself included find them dispicable and totally unacceptable. ok, so IF, big IF, the person (by the way, interesting that in Jason's ITV interview he CLEARLY says 'person' and not persons, so not sure why some people are saying persons...) said something along the line of 'you fat ######## maltezer head', why won;t he say that and then say I found that to be racist. wouldn't that clear it up a bit instead of speculation? to be clear I am NOT questioning his right to believe that was racist or for the Police system to record it as a racist incident. But it would allow others to make their own mind up in THEIR EYES to whether that is racist or a loud mouth shouting some foul language and abuse that he did not believe was racist. I'm not as down with the kids as I used to be but I believe that 'Maltezer head' is not a phrase that has been clearly associated with racism in the past, unlike say 'choc ice', 'coconut' or 'Bounty bar', although it is interesting that Rio Ferdinard can publicly call Ashley Cole the former. just to reiterate, if Jason brown feels he has been racially abused then that's something we will listen to and investigate, but surely each individual is allowed to look at what was said and make up their own mind, and also lay off the steward until we know what happened. is it not beyond the bounds of possibility that the steward did not intervene because he didn;t think it was racist, and then did intervene when a person on the pitch told him he did feel it was racist? each person on this planet has a different opinion on what is, or is not, racist abuse. And if anyone wants to know I have been there, got the T-shirt, and so has my wife. My children will be soon as well (one is already on the cusp as even 3 years old as spotting that she is 'different'). So, hang on Martin, you say that because this person has found a new, original way to abuse someone that it can't be considered racist. Just because it hasn't been used before I can imagine the recipient Jason Brown finding it deeply offensive. Would you liken a white man's head to a small round brown chocolate? I somehow doubt it. The essence of that slur - if that was indeed what was said and I have no idea - is that it is directed at someone because of the colour of their skin. I'm sure the Klan found thousands of new ways to abuse black people, it doesn't mean you can say: "Hang on, that's not racist because we haven't heard it before."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 18:04:26 GMT
ok, so IF, big IF, the person (by the way, interesting that in Jason's ITV interview he CLEARLY says 'person' and not persons, so not sure why some people are saying persons...) said something along the line of 'you fat ######## maltezer head', why won;t he say that and then say I found that to be racist. wouldn't that clear it up a bit instead of speculation? to be clear I am NOT questioning his right to believe that was racist or for the Police system to record it as a racist incident. But it would allow others to make their own mind up in THEIR EYES to whether that is racist or a loud mouth shouting some foul language and abuse that he did not believe was racist. I'm not as down with the kids as I used to be but I believe that 'Maltezer head' is not a phrase that has been clearly associated with racism in the past, unlike say 'choc ice', 'coconut' or 'Bounty bar', although it is interesting that Rio Ferdinard can publicly call Ashley Cole the former. just to reiterate, if Jason brown feels he has been racially abused then that's something we will listen to and investigate, but surely each individual is allowed to look at what was said and make up their own mind, and also lay off the steward until we know what happened. is it not beyond the bounds of possibility that the steward did not intervene because he didn;t think it was racist, and then did intervene when a person on the pitch told him he did feel it was racist? each person on this planet has a different opinion on what is, or is not, racist abuse. And if anyone wants to know I have been there, got the T-shirt, and so has my wife. My children will be soon as well (one is already on the cusp as even 3 years old as spotting that she is 'different'). So, hang on Martin, you say that because this person has found a new, original way to abuse someone that it can't be considered racist. Just because it hasn't been used before I can imagine the recipient Jason Brown finding it deeply offensive. Would you liken a white man's head to a small round brown chocolate? I somehow doubt it. The essence of that slur - if that was indeed what was said and I have no idea - is that it is directed at someone because of the colour of their skin. I'm sure the Klan found thousands of new ways to abuse black people, it doesn't mean you can say: "Hang on, that's not racist because we haven't heard it before." If someone shouts at a white guy calling him a mint imperial is that racist then? There has to be a difference between someone saying something innocently that is taken as racist and someone setting out to BE racist. Isn't that the definition of discrimination?
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Post by buckrippers on Oct 10, 2014 19:40:42 GMT
So this was a completely innocent remark? Come off it Hugo! That's the problem. For some people racism is so ingrained that they think nothing of a 'humorous' bit of banter like calling a black goalkeeper a malteser, with a few swear words thrown in. Bloody hell, let's get Love Thy Neighbour back on the TV while we're at it and have Jim Davidson to do his stand up act with Chaaalkeee at half time. What if he had called him a chocolate drop? Would that qualify? Baffled now.
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Post by buckrippers on Oct 10, 2014 19:43:50 GMT
Having said that, I think it would be outrageous to sanction the club over one person's ignorance, particularly when I'm sure worst things are shouted at places like the New Den every week without any action being taken. It would be a case of the FA taking action because we're a soft target.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 19:59:21 GMT
Having said that, I think it would be outrageous to sanction the club over one person's ignorance, particularly when I'm sure worst things are shouted at places like the New Den every week without any action being taken. It would be a case of the FA taking action because we're a soft target. Well, I don't know and nor you. I'm sure we both have an opinion on whether or not there was intent but we don't know the facts. Would I call a black man a malteser? No. Would someone racist say it? Yes. Would someone stupid say it? Possibly. The point I was making was that the Club has been vilified in the media and its very unfair when we don't even know over what or why?
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Post by Topper Gas on Oct 10, 2014 20:03:19 GMT
Problem is our "fans" are becoming worse than Millwall's, there's Ashton Gate, Wycombe, Mansfield, Braintree & now this week's incident, I think our "family club" reputation is at risk of disappearing thanks to a handful of yobs.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 21:05:27 GMT
Problem is our "fans" are becoming worse than Millwall's, there's Ashton Gate, Wycombe, Mansfield, Braintree & now this week's incident, I think our "family club" reputation is at risk of disappearing thanks to a handful of yobs. We certainly are coming across in the wrong way recently that's for sure. This incident must remind us to up our act as a club, but the club can't do it alone, we will require supporters to "shop" people who are tarnishing our reputation, we still obviously have much work to do.
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Post by seanclevedongas on Oct 10, 2014 21:11:56 GMT
The one thing that baffles me in this is when the play stopped so that Jason could do his pointing and complain to the ref, several hundred fans chanted ' Fool Fool Fool at him in an aggressive manner but this is deemed non offensive but 1 person calling him a sweet treat is???
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 21:23:16 GMT
The one thing that baffles me in this is when the play stopped so that Jason could do his pointing and complain to the ref, several hundred fans chanted ' Fool Fool Fool at him in an aggressive manner but this is deemed non offensive but 1 person calling him a sweet treat is??? Calling someone a Fool is offensive it's just not racist.
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Post by curlywurly on Oct 10, 2014 21:35:54 GMT
Both could be deemed public order offenses. One has a higher priority than the other.
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Post by Jon the Stripe on Oct 10, 2014 21:40:36 GMT
The one thing that baffles me in this is when the play stopped so that Jason could do his pointing and complain to the ref, several hundred fans chanted ' Fool Fool Fool at him in an aggressive manner but this is deemed non offensive but 1 person calling him a sweet treat is??? Hi Sean. Yes! It is offensive and could be reported.As the poster above says it is purely a lesser crime. I think a few people are struggling with the fact they assume that racist abuse doesn't apply to white people, just to clarify the answer is Yes it does, In UK law it is illegal for someone to be treated differently or to suffer harassment because they have a different skin colour, nationality, religion or ethnicity. I think the biggest thing we have learnt this week is the average fan doesn't know enough, as a club we need to raise the awareness. As a previous football coach and referee i was lucky enough to complete courses which made me aware of many aspects of our game. Of course the easy way we can overcome this is, if in doubt - report it. You can talk to a steward away from the crowd to stay anomynous or call/email the club but if you feel strongly someone has been abused - report it. Then slowly we can erradicate the problem and make our club a better place and avoid the outcry that follows an incident such as this. UTG
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 1:30:18 GMT
The one thing that baffles me in this is when the play stopped so that Jason could do his pointing and complain to the ref, several hundred fans chanted ' Fool Fool Fool at him in an aggressive manner but this is deemed non offensive but 1 person calling him a sweet treat is??? Hi Sean. Yes! It is offensive and could be reported.As the poster above says it is purely a lesser crime. I think a few people are struggling with the fact they assume that racist abuse doesn't apply to white people, just to clarify the answer is Yes it does, In UK law it is illegal for someone to be treated differently or to suffer harassment because they have a different skin colour, nationality, religion or ethnicity. I think the biggest thing we have learnt this week is the average fan doesn't know enough, as a club we need to raise the awareness. As a previous football coach and referee i was lucky enough to complete courses which made me aware of many aspects of our game. Of course the easy way we can overcome this is, if in doubt - report it. You can talk to a steward away from the crowd to stay anomynous or call/email the club but if you feel strongly someone has been abused - report it. Then slowly we can erradicate the problem and make our club a better place and avoid the outcry that follows an incident such as this. UTG
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 1:32:17 GMT
interesting to hear you coached and refereed
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