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Post by aghast on Aug 11, 2021 21:42:53 GMT
Rose coloured glasses? Think they're called results. 4th in the league and top over 46 games. What about that is untrue? 4th yes, but not sustainable. The number of games I watched where we played terribly but scrapped a win was unbelievable. So yes Rose Coloured glasses. Would we have been in this mess now had GC stayed, no, but don't delude yourself about championship potential. That's how I saw it too. Fans of his can quote his stats to their heart's content, but I saw some truly dire performances under GC. If we had scrapped a promotion under him we would have been massacred in the Championship. Having said that, it's been so bad since he left that maybe I'm wrong and we should have stuck with him.
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Post by yetigas on Aug 11, 2021 21:46:23 GMT
DC hardly turned around Walsall and PV have lost both of their opening games. There's no real evidence DC is ever going to repeat what he achieved at Rovers. It’s irrelevant what DC has achieved elsewhere, I’m talking purely about what he did for us , sometimes a club and a manager just seem to fit , we have 100% not had that since his departure. He fully unified both us as supporters and the team , I have NEVER felt so connected to a squad of players in my time watching football , What DC managed to do with the back to back promotion seasons were nothing short of miracles, it’s such a shame that all of his and that teams work has all been undone, absolutely gutting ! I agree that DC fitted well and he was very invested in the club mostly (until that last season). But I wouldn't say he performed miracles. Rather like JB, DC couldn't stop us getting relegated, then we were doing quite average in the conference until Chris Lines came along. And his work was not undone by others, he did it all by himself in those last few months...for whatever reason he seemed to lose interest. Sometimes its time to move on and that was DC's time, thankful though we all were for those 2 promotions.
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Post by aghast on Aug 11, 2021 21:52:44 GMT
It’s irrelevant what DC has achieved elsewhere, I’m talking purely about what he did for us , sometimes a club and a manager just seem to fit , we have 100% not had that since his departure. He fully unified both us as supporters and the team , I have NEVER felt so connected to a squad of players in my time watching football , What DC managed to do with the back to back promotion seasons were nothing short of miracles, it’s such a shame that all of his and that teams work has all been undone, absolutely gutting ! I agree that DC fitted well and he was very invested in the club mostly (until that last season). But I wouldn't say he performed miracles. Rather like JB, DC couldn't stop us getting relegated, then we were doing quite average in the conference until Chris Lines came along. And his work was not undone by others, he did it all by himself in those last few months...for whatever reason he seemed to lose interest. Sometimes its time to move on and that was DC's time, thankful though we all were for those 2 promotions. Not very romantic but probably true.
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Post by I Voted For Kodos on Aug 11, 2021 22:02:03 GMT
4th yes, but not sustainable. The number of games I watched where we played terribly but scrapped a win was unbelievable. So yes Rose Coloured glasses. Would we have been in this mess now had GC stayed, no, but don't delude yourself about championship potential. That's how I saw it too. Fans of his can quote his stats to their heart's content, but I saw some truly dire performances under GC. If we had scrapped a promotion under him we would have been massacred in the Championship. Having said that, it's been so bad since he left that maybe I'm wrong and we should have stuck with him. I'll dig out some stats tomorrow, but I don't think the dire performances should be used against GC. If anything it's to his credit that we got results despite a technically limited team. The first half of the Southend game in December 2019 was truly one of the worst Rovers performances I've ever seen. Yet GC turned it around at half time and we ended up with a deserved 4-2 win. With him in charge the team was more than the sum of its parts. Would we have been massacred in the Championship? Very likely, but we'll never know and I'd take that over the reality we know we're in now.
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Post by yetigas on Aug 11, 2021 22:02:14 GMT
Apart from the obvious (crap ground etc) I think there are two issues that define what is wrong with the club. One is the turnover of managers (and maybe behind that is also failure of due diligence before making appointments). Managerial changes rarely bring short term success and although I may be in a small minority but I still feel that BG should not have been sacked - he was brought in to do a job, change the playing style etc and was slowly doing it with the players he had recruited. Those players were not suited to PT or JB's style hence we went to the bottom of the pile . Now we start again with JB. Now I am not his greatest fan and his record to date is dire, but on football issues I would not think about replacing him this season. He has his players so let him have the time to get them working and playing well together, even if it takes half a season to do so. Which brings me to the second point which is the owner/directors have to hold their nerve. I feel that they capitulated to pressure when sacking BG, whist stronger leaders would have kept him in place. So even if the first 10-15 games go badly they must hold their nerve and keep JB (and again I am talking on footballing issues not court cases) despite the inevitable pressure that will come from fans to move him on.
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Post by Feeling The Blues on Aug 11, 2021 22:35:41 GMT
Apart from the obvious (crap ground etc) I think there are two issues that define what is wrong with the club. One is the turnover of managers (and maybe behind that is also failure of due diligence before making appointments). Managerial changes rarely bring short term success and although I may be in a small minority but I still feel that BG should not have been sacked - he was brought in to do a job, change the playing style etc and was slowly doing it with the players he had recruited. Those players were not suited to PT or JB's style hence we went to the bottom of the pile . Now we start again with JB. Now I am not his greatest fan and his record to date is dire, but on football issues I would not think about replacing him this season. He has his players so let him have the time to get them working and playing well together, even if it takes half a season to do so. Which brings me to the second point which is the owner/directors have to hold their nerve. I feel that they capitulated to pressure when sacking BG, whist stronger leaders would have kept him in place. So even if the first 10-15 games go badly they must hold their nerve and keep JB (and again I am talking on footballing issues not court cases) despite the inevitable pressure that will come from fans to move him on. BFG shouldn’t have been sacked because he never should have been appointed in the first place! The utter stinking rotting corpse of a club we are becoming started with his appointment. He was so completely and utterly out of his depth that in a heartbeat he managed to turn a team that hardly lost into to a team that hardly won. If we’d appointed someone like Tisdale straight after Coughlan we’d likely still be L1 rather than driving like watered up lunatics headlong towards relegation back to non league at 100 mph with a violent psychopath at the wheel! I’m beginning to wonder if our owner is actually capable of making a good managerial appointment now that he has surrounded himself with sycophants.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Aug 11, 2021 22:35:46 GMT
Apart from the obvious (crap ground etc) I think there are two issues that define what is wrong with the club. One is the turnover of managers (and maybe behind that is also failure of due diligence before making appointments). Managerial changes rarely bring short term success and although I may be in a small minority but I still feel that BG should not have been sacked - he was brought in to do a job, change the playing style etc and was slowly doing it with the players he had recruited. Those players were not suited to PT or JB's style hence we went to the bottom of the pile . Now we start again with JB. Now I am not his greatest fan and his record to date is dire, but on football issues I would not think about replacing him this season. He has his players so let him have the time to get them working and playing well together, even if it takes half a season to do so. Which brings me to the second point which is the owner/directors have to hold their nerve. I feel that they capitulated to pressure when sacking BG, whist stronger leaders would have kept him in place. So even if the first 10-15 games go badly they must hold their nerve and keep JB (and again I am talking on footballing issues not court cases) despite the inevitable pressure that will come from fans to move him on. I think the boards problem was they gave Garner too long. Not that they didn’t give him long enough. Difference between Joey and BG is night and day - JB took over a team after the window closed which was fooked - BG took over a team that was performing on the metrics which mattered with a window still open and his form over his total tenure would get him sacked. At this point, JB has much more in common with DCs first 20 odd games than BGs. Half tempted to go and find a thread from early September 2014 for a bit of a morale boost!
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Post by gasify on Aug 11, 2021 23:21:37 GMT
Apart from the obvious (crap ground etc) I think there are two issues that define what is wrong with the club. One is the turnover of managers (and maybe behind that is also failure of due diligence before making appointments). Managerial changes rarely bring short term success and although I may be in a small minority but I still feel that BG should not have been sacked - he was brought in to do a job, change the playing style etc and was slowly doing it with the players he had recruited. Those players were not suited to PT or JB's style hence we went to the bottom of the pile . Now we start again with JB. Now I am not his greatest fan and his record to date is dire, but on football issues I would not think about replacing him this season. He has his players so let him have the time to get them working and playing well together, even if it takes half a season to do so. Which brings me to the second point which is the owner/directors have to hold their nerve. I feel that they capitulated to pressure when sacking BG, whist stronger leaders would have kept him in place. So even if the first 10-15 games go badly they must hold their nerve and keep JB (and again I am talking on footballing issues not court cases) despite the inevitable pressure that will come from fans to move him on. I think the boards problem was they gave Garner too long. Not that they didn’t give him long enough. Difference between Joey and BG is night and day - JB took over a team after the window closed which was fooked - BG took over a team that was performing on the metrics which mattered with a window still open and his form over his total tenure would get him sacked. At this point, JB has much more in common with DCs first 20 odd games than BGs. Half tempted to go and find a thread from early September 2014 for a bit of a morale boost! You should. People were calling for DC's head after 3 games in the conference.
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Post by 2nd May 1990 on Aug 12, 2021 3:09:15 GMT
Without in any way being a ‘Barton fan’, I think this is all a bit premature regarding this season.
Objectively there are sound reasons why we have lost those two games and hopefully we get players back to fitness quickly. Obviously we need forwards back but not having Coutts and Finley leaves us desperately short of a competitive edge in midfield. Presumably even Martinez is out injured as surely he’d be playing?
Basically it’s a central midfield of Grant on his own as others have shown under different managers that they are basically not up to the job. I’d rather see Mehew in there than Liddle or Hargreaves but it would be a big ask for him to step in and be expected to be the answer.
There do still need to be players shifted out and ideally a competent central midfielder, a right back and probably another forward brought in, but getting the injured players fit and Coutts’ suspension out the way will see a completely different Gas team on that pitch to the one we saw last night.
A win or even a draw on Saturday is needed against a side that is not expected to be one of the best in the division. A positive result in front of a proper crowd would do wonders for us. Once we get some kind of ball rolling we should do well this season.
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Post by falsenumber9 on Aug 12, 2021 6:19:02 GMT
Rose coloured glasses? Think they're called results. 4th in the league and top over 46 games. What about that is untrue? 4th yes, but not sustainable. The number of games I watched where we played terribly but scrapped a win was unbelievable. So yes Rose Coloured glasses. Would we have been in this mess now had GC stayed, no, but don't delude yourself about championship potential. I've seen this 'non sustainable' line been peddled by others and it makes me laugh every time. The results were literally sustained over the course of 46 or so games so the idea it was a brief honeymoon period is of course nonsense. There's no denying we had some dire performances in amongst but seemed to respond and pick up results shortly after. I found it interesting listening to the Tony Craig Tote End podcast earlier in the week where he made it clear how organised and drilled the side were, along with the work ethic of all involved. Baring in mind the obvious limitations, they were an excellent team. The 'not sustainable' jibes beg the question what model would be that would enable us to be in the top four of League One at the current time. Establishing a DNA signing young players and striving to play attractive attacking football by any chance? Wycombe have demonstrated what can be achieved by knowing where you're at and building an efficient a system as possible.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 12, 2021 6:46:58 GMT
Good post, I said something similar on the last match thread. In my opinion you have to look at the constants throughout that time starting from the top up. I don't include Wael as he owns us and employs people to run the club on his behalf. See I do include him because he owns us and employs people to run the club on our behalf. Funny old world. All the others are considerably easier to replace. I don't disagree that he should be accountable but unless there are a queue of people wanting to buy us then it's pointless discussing the possibility of replacing him.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 12, 2021 7:03:36 GMT
Without in any way being a ‘Barton fan’, I think this is all a bit premature regarding this season. Objectively there are sound reasons why we have lost those two games and hopefully we get players back to fitness quickly. Obviously we need forwards back but not having Coutts and Finley leaves us desperately short of a competitive edge in midfield. Presumably even Martinez is out injured as surely he’d be playing? Basically it’s a central midfield of Grant on his own as others have shown under different managers that they are basically not up to the job. I’d rather see Mehew in there than Liddle or Hargreaves but it would be a big ask for him to step in and be expected to be the answer. There do still need to be players shifted out and ideally a competent central midfielder, a right back and probably another forward brought in, but getting the injured players fit and Coutts’ suspension out the way will see a completely different Gas team on that pitch to the one we saw last night. A win or even a draw on Saturday is needed against a side that is not expected to be one of the best in the division. A positive result in front of a proper crowd would do wonders for us. Once we get some kind of ball rolling we should do well this season. I don't disagree that 2 games is way too early but I think the OP raises a good question which I feel has largely been ignored by most posters. Rovers have been a shambles since the final 6 months of DCs reign. Some include GCs antifootball in that others don't. Either way it's been years of abject awfulness on and off the pitch. WAQ has cleared the debt and built the Quarters, TG has been successful (although Ticketmaster is a massive mistake because they are a sh**ty company) but what exactly has anyone else done?
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Post by Gassy on Aug 12, 2021 7:09:40 GMT
I would agree that GC in the first season was scrappy/lucky, but after the summer I cannot agree with that at all.
I’d challenge anyone with that view point to go over those games and pick out the ones we didn’t deserve to win.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Aug 12, 2021 7:11:52 GMT
See I do include him because he owns us and employs people to run the club on our behalf. Funny old world. All the others are considerably easier to replace. I don't disagree that he should be accountable but unless there are a queue of people wanting to buy us then it's pointless discussing the possibility of replacing him. I'm not talking about replacing him. I'm talking about him changing his approach. Surely we would agree, if you're looking at consistently bad players you need a change from those recruiting. Similarly then if you're talking about consistently underperforming managers you need a change in the ones recruiting them? Wael is the leader, his generals are not providing results, we are going in the opposite direction etc etc. Wael needs to make changes in my opinion. I dont think he should be ignored just because he owns us and won't leave himself. None of that means he can't try a different formula and given where we are, he should.
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Post by Jomo on Aug 12, 2021 7:24:25 GMT
All the others are considerably easier to replace. I don't disagree that he should be accountable but unless there are a queue of people wanting to buy us then it's pointless discussing the possibility of replacing him. I'm not talking about replacing him. I'm talking about him changing his approach. Surely we would agree, if you're looking at consistently bad players you need a change from those recruiting. Similarly then if you're talking about consistently underperforming managers you need a change in the ones recruiting them? Wael is the leader, his generals are not providing results, we are going in the opposite direction etc etc. Wael needs to make changes in my opinion. I dont think he should be ignored just because he owns us and won't leave himself. None of that means he can't try a different formula and given where we are, he should. His approach in the last few years since DC left has been "suck it and see" in regards to managers. We've had GC, BG, PT and JB. All of them wildly different in their philosophies and managerial styles. This is in spite of the so-called "sustainability" strategy whereby Martyn Starnes stated less than 12 months ago, that managers would be brought in that buy into the club's philosophy, and work with existing staff and players in order to make the club more structured and less chaotic. A good strategy yes, but only if those running the club actually see it through. What we are left with is the utter chaos that the board said they wanted to avoid. It is a complete clusterf***. Perhaps little wonder that no matter who the manager is or which players we've recruited, the players take to the field seemingly without any idea what they're doing. They're representing the club all too literally.
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Post by I Voted For Kodos on Aug 12, 2021 12:21:55 GMT
We will have lots of match day threads and player ratings for the games under GC. If someone has the time and the knowledge of how to look them up it would be interesting to see what we thought during his reign? Maybe I Voted For Kodos has the stats? I've looked at this now. Obviously the Player Ratings are all based on opinions, but this is how it looks since the start of the 2018/19 season. The averages over this period: DC 5.8 GC 6.3 BG 5.7 PT 5.7 JB 5.5 (for comparison DC's average was 6.3 over the three seasons prior)
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Post by seanclevedongas on Aug 12, 2021 12:40:24 GMT
We will have lots of match day threads and player ratings for the games under GC. If someone has the time and the knowledge of how to look them up it would be interesting to see what we thought during his reign? Maybe I Voted For Kodos has the stats? I've looked at this now. Obviously the Player Ratings are all based on opinions, but this is how it looks since the start of the 2018/19 season. View AttachmentThe averages over this period: DC 5.8 GC 6.3 BG 5.7 PT 5.7 JB 5.5 (for comparison DC's average was 6.3 over the three seasons prior) Great work - cheers. So during GC's tenure the average player rating was higher than the 3 subsequent managers and equal to DC's overall (which included 2 promotions) If and I know it is a big if but if the people rating were consistent with how they marked and not too influenced by emotion during the entire period it would possibly indicate that the footie under GC wasn't as bad as some are remembering?
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Post by kruger on Aug 12, 2021 13:15:10 GMT
How many games is coutts suspended for? 3. oh bloody hell, ok thanks
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Post by orgasmic on Aug 12, 2021 13:41:43 GMT
I've looked at this now. Obviously the Player Ratings are all based on opinions, but this is how it looks since the start of the 2018/19 season. View AttachmentThe averages over this period: DC 5.8 GC 6.3 BG 5.7 PT 5.7 JB 5.5 (for comparison DC's average was 6.3 over the three seasons prior) Great work - cheers. So during GC's tenure the average player rating was higher than the 3 subsequent managers and equal to DC's overall (which included 2 promotions) If and I know it is a big if but if the people rating were consistent with how they marked and not too influenced by emotion during the entire period it would possibly indicate that the footie under GC wasn't as bad as some are remembering? The football under GC was less entertaining but I always came away happy with 3 points!
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Post by rememberhalifax on Aug 12, 2021 13:45:38 GMT
In answer to the original question all i can say is that for a few years we had a squad who would run through a brick wall for the club , fans appreciated that and the enthusiasm was infectious, we had a fantastic spirit in the dressing room with characters like Ellis, Billy, Ollie, and others but when the great reset came with BG ( Which in theory i was behind) none of the new signings ,though they looked good at the time, had that same feel for the club and there seemed no one in the dressing room to create the atmosphere required for success . BG nice chap though he is, and technically sound did not come across as the type to inspire a dressing room, likewise PT. I can imagine JB being inspirational, he is for all his achievements, a big kid who loves football but of course his well documented off field issues may be resented by some players. In summary, history seems to say that when ever you have these massive turnover of players and staff, success seldom follows immediately, imho every club needs a nucleus of players /staff who have the club in there veins which is why i hope Hoole is not the only one to make the break through this season, up the Rovers.
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