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Post by eric on Feb 15, 2023 13:56:13 GMT
At what point does a player need to take responsibility for their own conduct? I'd certainly look at retrospective punishment for cheating. Genuine question. We definitely need retrospective action against cheating, whether that be cheating to win a penalty, cheating to get a player booked or sent off and cheating to waste time/stop play. Most fans I speak to are sick of players rolling around and screaming to gain advantage, they are also sick of time wasting which gullible referees do little to stop. Its increasingly being laughed off as ‘dark arts’ which is total bullshit. Managers like Simeone, Mourinho and Arteta are among the worst culprits. Last season Martinelli got injured near the touchline and got himself off the pitch to the physio, Arteta effectively pushed him back onto the pitch where he promptly sat down and the referee stopped the game - Arsenal were obviously winning. Head injuries are a major talking point in football at the moment and everyone is expected to take it seriously but managers seek to use it to their advantage. I’ve seen players go down holding their heads to stop breakaway attacks or to waste time knowing referees are scared stiff of not stopping play for head injuries. Despicable abuse of a rule designed to protect against serious injury. At the moment it is worth a player diving. They don’t often get punished, if they do it’s merely a yellow card. A retrospective 3 match ban for cheating would change managers instructions, it is no longer then worth the risk of taking a dive.
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Post by rememberhalifax on Feb 15, 2023 14:00:33 GMT
Personally I don’t care a jot for the respect of the ref on the field. The deference and bootlicking in rugby I find distasteful. There’s nothing wrong with appealing decisions. When your mate has just had a studs up knee high challenge, try stopping players protesting. Football is a distinctly faster and more intense game than rugby or cricket. That’s why it’s more popular. Also the concept of respecting authority for authorities sake is a bad one for youth. You should always teach kids to question authority, the reverence of age, position and power as an absolute is what allowed so many abuses of that power in the past. The entire history of most religions and most nations - sending men into barbed wire for no good reason, is another example. As for cheating that’s easy. Video review panels who assess games in retrospect and where the camera proves no contact, but a dive resulted in an advantage, a 5-10 game ban for that player. That will almost immediately stamp it out. Rather than stop the game. No player wants a quarter of a season out for one penalty. The punishment has to be greater than the advantage. This would have the abnormally of big games like finals being worth the risk, but these have rigorous VAR anyway. It might be an idea to let the rules also allow more physical styles. The premier league is the most successful in the world for a reason. It’s physical and also goods. As soon fifa got out of the control of the English league, they have consistently changed the rules to favour southern and med teams (and a America) because the physical styles suit the Northern European and African teams and their smaller, faster players do a lot better when you can’t tackle them. Diving would be less of an advantage if refs just let challenges go more. As it stands, the game is close to non contact at the top level, because they want the Messi’s, iniestas etc winning things and not the drogbas etc. it’s no surprise since it changed suddenly Spain are a serious world force. The answer is that people dive because the authorities would rather have a game of diving than a game where physicality can win games. You can either have one or the other. Cheats who dive or physical football. Apologies for the old school player examples but I don’t watch anything except the league rovers are in, prem and European football lost its appeal for me a long time ago. Thank you for taking the time to add greatly to the debate ,you make some interesting points, i don't think it's a case of 'bootlicking' as you put it in rugby, comparison is quite difficult , nearly every decision is quickly explained in rugby and the Ref is continually talking while the game is in progress, i believe the team captain is allowed to approach the ref with any concerns he may have but in Football there does not seem to be any avenue for same ,in Rugby every one including officials seem to be there for the same reason and all on the side of fair play, sounds a bit corny but in football there seems to be a barrier twixt teams and officials and they have little or no rapport., each party viewing the other with suspicion. Do refs and players /coaches ever get together, pre season, during season, post season? IF, as you put it your mate is on the receiving end of a bad challenge should we just let the officials deal with it either instantly or via var? Your second paragraph does raise valid concerns over automatic respect for authority. Being of an age i was taught to respect your elders , Police, Church, teachers, and so on and it was taken as read that all these people were whiter than white. Unfortunately it has been proven that this is not the case and respect for those once untouchable professions has disappeared largely due to a myriad of cases involving wrong doing, that is the situation but i do not know the answer to how they regain the respect of the public. As for the cheating aspect, diving etc all these things will be open to interpretation ,what you may see as a dive ,i may not , VAR will not really answer such things the only person who really knows will be the player and they are hardly likely to put their hand up and admit to diving or handling deliberately are they? I do believe that where there is cast iron proof of wrong doing the penalty must be severe and i am sure you would see things improve. I like you have no interest in the Premier league and the like ,i basically find it obscene with money which in turn breeds more pressure on managers and players to gain every advantage they can ,heaping more pressure on Refs. IT is interesting that you call it the most successful league in the world, (are you measuring it purely in financial terms?) yet you have no interest in it. All this is very interesting but does not address the question in the OP, If as you state we are not to respect the refs, who i believe are basically an honest bunch but subject to human error, why on earth would anyone want to subject themselves to the levels of abuse seen and heard on football pitches at every level in every corner of the country.
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Post by CostaBlancaGas on Feb 15, 2023 14:01:19 GMT
At what point does a player need to take responsibility for their own conduct? I'd certainly look at retrospective punishment for cheating. Genuine question. We definitely need retrospective action against cheating, whether that be cheating to win a penalty, cheating to get a player booked or sent off and cheating to waste time/stop play. Most fans I speak to are sick of players rolling around and screaming to gain advantage, they are also sick of time wasting which gullible referees do little to stop. Its increasingly being laughed off as ‘dark arts’ which is total bullshit. Managers like Simeone, Mourinho and Arteta are among the worst culprits. Last season Martinelli got injured near the touchline and got himself off the pitch to the physio, Arteta effectively pushed him back onto the pitch where he promptly sat down and the referee stopped the game - Arsenal were obviously winning. Head injuries are a major talking point in football at the moment and everyone is expected to take it seriously but managers seek to use it to their advantage. I’ve seen players go down holding their heads to stop breakaway attacks or to waste time knowing referees are scared stiff of not stopping play for head injuries. Despicable abuse of a rule designed to protect against serious injury. At the moment it is worth a player diving. They don’t often get punished, if they do it’s merely a yellow card. A retrospective 3 match ban for cheating would change managers instructions, it is no longer then worth the risk of taking a dive. Totally agree, unfortunately FIFA the South Americans and southern Europe all love these antics and will do little to stop it.
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Post by eric on Feb 15, 2023 14:10:38 GMT
We definitely need retrospective action against cheating, whether that be cheating to win a penalty, cheating to get a player booked or sent off and cheating to waste time/stop play. Most fans I speak to are sick of players rolling around and screaming to gain advantage, they are also sick of time wasting which gullible referees do little to stop. Its increasingly being laughed off as ‘dark arts’ which is total bullshit. Managers like Simeone, Mourinho and Arteta are among the worst culprits. Last season Martinelli got injured near the touchline and got himself off the pitch to the physio, Arteta effectively pushed him back onto the pitch where he promptly sat down and the referee stopped the game - Arsenal were obviously winning. Head injuries are a major talking point in football at the moment and everyone is expected to take it seriously but managers seek to use it to their advantage. I’ve seen players go down holding their heads to stop breakaway attacks or to waste time knowing referees are scared stiff of not stopping play for head injuries. Despicable abuse of a rule designed to protect against serious injury. At the moment it is worth a player diving. They don’t often get punished, if they do it’s merely a yellow card. A retrospective 3 match ban for cheating would change managers instructions, it is no longer then worth the risk of taking a dive. Totally agree, unfortunately FIFA the South Americans and southern Europe all love these antics and will do little to stop it. The footballing authorities are always tinkering but constantly fail to address the issues that cause most frustration to the fans and probably the most likely cause of any future fall in attendances/viewing figures. It’s even more frustrating when we can see it would be so easily solved.
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Post by gulfofaden on Feb 15, 2023 17:16:49 GMT
, If as you state we are not to respect the refs, who i believe are basically an honest bunch but subject to human error, why on earth would anyone want to subject themselves to the levels of abuse seen and heard on football pitches at every level in every corner of the country. Money. They get paid. If they don’t like it. Don’t be a ref. A lot is made of abuse. It’s a catch all term which seems to encompass molesting kids, but also shouting at referees. if you want several thousand pounds a match, your work is going to be under scrutiny and if they don’t like it, people shout things at you. If it was such a burden there would be no refs. Any job in the public eye gets good and bad. Singers, politicians, Comedians. That’s the deal. Same with players. I have virtually no sympathy with players getting abuse, playing the victim when they waltz off after to their multi million pound home, stroll around with everyone buying them pints and women throwing themselves at them in the street and then it’s “muh. My feelings”. Absolutely ridiculous that we are supposed to have sympathy for multi millionaires with the world at their feet while people struggle on working in care homes desperately trying to survive. We have way too much sympathy for peoples feelings and nowhere near enough for peoples circumstances.
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Post by rememberhalifax on Feb 15, 2023 17:56:35 GMT
Money. They get paid. If they don’t like it. Don’t be a ref. A lot is made of abuse. It’s a catch all term which seems to encompass molesting kids, but also shouting at referees. if you want several thousand pounds a match, your work is going to be under scrutiny and if they don’t like it, people shout things at you. If it was such a burden there would be no refs. Any job in the public eye gets good and bad. Singers, politicians, Comedians. That’s the deal. Same with players. I have virtually no sympathy with players getting abuse, playing the victim when they waltz off after to their multi million pound home, stroll around with everyone buying them pints and women throwing themselves at them in the street and then it’s “muh. My feelings”. Absolutely ridiculous that we are supposed to have sympathy for multi millionaires with the world at their feet while people struggle on working in care homes desperately trying to survive. We have way too much sympathy for peoples feelings and nowhere near enough for peoples circumstances. No idea what a class 1 ref earns, is it that lucrative? i would not think money was a motivation factor at grass roots level surely? any ex-refs out there to enlighten us?
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Post by gulfofaden on Feb 15, 2023 18:31:27 GMT
No idea what a class 1 ref earns, is it that lucrative? i would not think money was a motivation factor at grass roots level surely? any ex-refs out there to enlighten us? I heard (could be BS) that it’s £5,000 a match. Could be total rubbish. In reality given the money in football I would say a salary of £150k a year for top refs and at least £80k for those in The league. Professionals earn that kind of money, specialist professions ie IT get that kind of money. This is a Serious business and they should be full time and highly paid to attract good people to the role.
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Post by Tilly's Thighs on Feb 15, 2023 18:43:24 GMT
I heard (could be BS) that it’s £5,000 a match. Could be total rubbish. In reality given the money in football I would say a salary of £150k a year for top refs and at least £80k for those in The league. Professionals earn that kind of money, specialist professions ie IT get that kind of money. This is a Serious business and they should be full time and highly paid to attract good people to the role. I believe that JB mooted something similar a while ago, also money to be invested in training refereees.
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Post by gulfofaden on Feb 15, 2023 20:05:14 GMT
I heard (could be BS) that it’s £5,000 a match. Could be total rubbish. In reality given the money in football I would say a salary of £150k a year for top refs and at least £80k for those in The league. Professionals earn that kind of money, specialist professions ie IT get that kind of money. This is a Serious business and they should be full time and highly paid to attract good people to the role. I believe that JB mooted something similar a while ago, also money to be invested in training refereees. Pay peanuts you get monkeys. I never understand why people get funny about MPs on £80k. You’d think running the country would mean you have your absolutely best people in that job. Try £300k a year and you’d get some decent people not the washed up committee members we end up with. I appreciate that most people aren’t on anywhere near this but the reality is, the most intelligent people with the best ideas and drive currently are working in business and would never go anywhere near politics. The added bonus is if we pay them well, they won’t be doing crony deals with businesses and unions etc to get top jobs when they leave. A lot of ministers seem to pop up as highly paid non execs for companies and you can’t tell me that wasn’t down to favours when in office. Anyway; back to football. Joey is right. You can’t have part time refs in a multi million league.
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Post by stapletongas on Feb 15, 2023 21:36:01 GMT
One current issue in local grassroots football I believe is being caused by VAR. Everyone is seeing justice happen on the pitch on TV through VAR reviews and decisions getting overturned. That in itself is changing the principle the the referee is ultimately in charge of the game because decisions are being reviewed. At grassroots level, in adult and junior matches, players, managers and spectators are not getting that "justice" and frustrations take over. I am watching local refs take more abuse than ever. Referees are human beings capable of making mistakes and having a bad day like anyone else and that has to be recognised. I recently pointed out to my own club that while some blamed the ref for an offside decision that denied us all 3 points, no one attributed the same blame to strikers missing point blank chances or defenders making basic errors, yet all contributed to not taking all points. The ref is the only person on the pitch not competing for 3 points. Back to VAR. I always argued when it was coming in that it would change teh game for the worse and that the game must by officiated the same whether it's on the Downs or at Wembley...the referee's decision must be final and all players have to accept it. The professionals have to lead the way showing how to respect and accept the refs decision and get on with the game. I firmly believe that some of the worst victims of VAR are local refs. I've seen the evidence. Almost all professional sports have VAR or something similar and it doesn’t affect those games at grassroots level - football should be no different. If behaviour towards grassroots referees has worsened its far more likely a direct correlation to worsening behaviour in society, the sense of entitlement and lack of proper punishment by the judicial system than VAR. VAR is great, it’s the moronic management of it that is the problem. If they just became involved to overturn ‘clear and obvious’ errors as they were supposed to then things would be a lot better. Instead they have reverted to almost re-refereeing every goal or contentious decision and go searching for ways to rule out goals. I also think they should revisit offside now that we have VAR. As the technology is now identifying attackers being 1mm beyond the last defender they should move towards daylight between the attacker and defender, thus penalising someone for being offside when they are gaining a genuine ‘unfair advantage’. I think they should get rid of it completely and go back to the referee being in charge.
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Post by eric on Feb 15, 2023 21:47:22 GMT
Almost all professional sports have VAR or something similar and it doesn’t affect those games at grassroots level - football should be no different. If behaviour towards grassroots referees has worsened its far more likely a direct correlation to worsening behaviour in society, the sense of entitlement and lack of proper punishment by the judicial system than VAR. VAR is great, it’s the moronic management of it that is the problem. If they just became involved to overturn ‘clear and obvious’ errors as they were supposed to then things would be a lot better. Instead they have reverted to almost re-refereeing every goal or contentious decision and go searching for ways to rule out goals. I also think they should revisit offside now that we have VAR. As the technology is now identifying attackers being 1mm beyond the last defender they should move towards daylight between the attacker and defender, thus penalising someone for being offside when they are gaining a genuine ‘unfair advantage’. I think they should get rid of it completely and go back to the referee being in charge. That would be a massive backwards step. A good system shouldn’t be abandoned because those currently controlling it are complete imbeciles.
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Post by stapletongas on Feb 16, 2023 8:32:30 GMT
I think they should get rid of it completely and go back to the referee being in charge. That would be a massive backwards step. A good system shouldn’t be abandoned because those currently controlling it are complete imbeciles. But it's not a good system and it means that the game is not officiated consistently in the same way, under the same rules from top to bottom of the game. A football match no matter whether it's on the Downs or at Wembley should be officiated in the same way...by the referee.
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Post by lastminutewinner on Feb 16, 2023 12:46:45 GMT
That would be a massive backwards step. A good system shouldn’t be abandoned because those currently controlling it are complete imbeciles. But it's not a good system and it means that the game is not officiated consistently in the same way, under the same rules from top to bottom of the game. A football match no matter whether it's on the Downs or at Wembley should be officiated in the same way...by the referee. Id be a lot less peeved seeing a referee make a human error than seeing someone make an error with the benefit of VAR. Its the rules that are ridiculous, for example the handball assist against us for Accrington
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Post by Tilly's Thighs on Feb 16, 2023 14:08:34 GMT
Almost all professional sports have VAR or something similar and it doesn’t affect those games at grassroots level - football should be no different. If behaviour towards grassroots referees has worsened its far more likely a direct correlation to worsening behaviour in society, the sense of entitlement and lack of proper punishment by the judicial system than VAR. VAR is great, it’s the moronic management of it that is the problem. If they just became involved to overturn ‘clear and obvious’ errors as they were supposed to then things would be a lot better. Instead they have reverted to almost re-refereeing every goal or contentious decision and go searching for ways to rule out goals. I also think they should revisit offside now that we have VAR. As the technology is now identifying attackers being 1mm beyond the last defender they should move towards daylight between the attacker and defender, thus penalising someone for being offside when they are gaining a genuine ‘unfair advantage’. I think they should get rid of it completely and go back to the referee being in charge. I haven't been to a live game with VAR, but I've heard people say that it spoils the atmosphere a bit. You start to celebrate, then realise that VAR are reviewing it, even if the decision is for the goal to be be given it's not quite the same as the prolonged, spontaneous celebration when the ball hits the net. I think I'd prefer just to have technology for whether or not the ball crossed the line, if this is in doubt.
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Post by lastminutewinner on Feb 16, 2023 14:50:06 GMT
I think they should get rid of it completely and go back to the referee being in charge. I haven't been to a live game with VAR, but I've heard people say that it spoils the atmosphere a bit. You start to celebrate, then realise that VAR are reviewing it, even if the decision is for the goal to be be given it's not quite the same as the prolonged, spontaneous celebration when the ball hits the net. I think I'd prefer just to have technology for whether or not the ball crossed the line, if this is in doubt. This is the biggest issue I have and feel the time it takes, eats away at the entertainment levels. Too much stop-start nonsense, I always said Football will end up like Rugby and thats the way its going...and for me that is not a good thing. I'm all for technology to make our lives easier but there is such thing as overkill
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Post by eric on Feb 16, 2023 15:32:46 GMT
I haven't been to a live game with VAR, but I've heard people say that it spoils the atmosphere a bit. You start to celebrate, then realise that VAR are reviewing it, even if the decision is for the goal to be be given it's not quite the same as the prolonged, spontaneous celebration when the ball hits the net. I think I'd prefer just to have technology for whether or not the ball crossed the line, if this is in doubt. This is the biggest issue I have and feel the time it takes, eats away at the entertainment levels. Too much stop-start nonsense, I always said Football will end up like Rugby and thats the way its going...and for me that is not a good thing. I'm all for technology to make our lives easier but there is such thing as overkill Again it’s the morons running the system that is the problem. Really there should only be a couple of interruptions in each game to eliminate the ‘clear and obvious’ errors. If it’s clear and obvious it should only take a matter of seconds to confirm or overturn a decision. I get the annoyance with any delay in celebrating goals but surely a slight delay is better than a huge injustice, for example a clear dive earning a penalty to send someone to relegation costing them tens of millions of pounds. Technology is here to stay, we have to get used to it and the authorities get better at running it.
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Post by lastminutewinner on Feb 16, 2023 16:09:44 GMT
This is the biggest issue I have and feel the time it takes, eats away at the entertainment levels. Too much stop-start nonsense, I always said Football will end up like Rugby and thats the way its going...and for me that is not a good thing. I'm all for technology to make our lives easier but there is such thing as overkill Again it’s the morons running the system that is the problem. Really there should only be a couple of interruptions in each game to eliminate the ‘clear and obvious’ errors. If it’s clear and obvious it should only take a matter of seconds to confirm or overturn a decision. I get the annoyance with any delay in celebrating goals but surely a slight delay is better than a huge injustice, for example a clear dive earning a penalty to send someone to relegation costing them tens of millions of pounds . Technology is here to stay, we have to get used to it and the authorities get better at running it. I honestly dont see how they can still make mistakes with VAR, yet they do every week. They are former refs but with the benefit of video. It seems there are different interpretation of the rules at the moment with refs. I'd sooner they left the technology and trained refs properly but accept businees trumps entertainment these days
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Post by stapletongas on Feb 16, 2023 17:42:16 GMT
The way I see it, if an incident needs all that tech to detect it, how is it ever a clear and obvious error by the referee?
If it takes a wait when examining the incident from a load of different camera angles, how can it be a clear and obvious error?
Goal line tech, yes keep it. The rest, bin it.
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Post by eric on Feb 16, 2023 20:54:29 GMT
The way I see it, if an incident needs all that tech to detect it, how is it ever a clear and obvious error by the referee? If it takes a wait when examining the incident from a load of different camera angles, how can it be a clear and obvious error? Goal line tech, yes keep it. The rest, bin it. Agree, anything that needs loads of looks, different angles and slow-mo’s isn’t clear and obvious and should quickly just revert back to referees’s initial decision. What we can’t have in this day and age is massive blunders deciding outcomes of huge matches and even seasons. For example a referee being fooled by an obvious dive - tech needs to step in and overturn. It creates fairer outcomes and also takes the heat off the referee when otherwise it could have been his mistake that decided a huge match.
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Post by Gas Go Marching In on Feb 17, 2023 9:28:58 GMT
Fair post. The current system seems to be reactive rather than proactive.
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