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Post by rememberhalifax on Feb 14, 2023 19:34:44 GMT
As some on here have expressed concern over ref's being influenced by JB' reputation thought this debate may be worth having ,especially as i believe there are one or two forum members who have experience of officiating at football games. I am prompted to comment following a item on breakfast news concerning abuse of Refs at grass roots level, by players ,parents , and so on, i believe this debate is also the subject of a Radio 5 Live series.
It centres around the fact that given the level of abuse and threats to their safety that Refs get who on earth would want to subject themselves to such treatment and what of the future of grass roots football if no one wants to referee ? why is the abuse deemed acceptable at Football matches when it would not be acceptable anywhere else? The authorities seem to be of the view that we must improve standards of behaviour from the bottom up, i disagree as i believe players at grass roots level copy the actions of those at the top of the game, players, coaches, managers.
Unlike most sports a lot of stuff on field is open to interpretation, eg dive or no dive, foul or no foul, hand ball or accidental and so on, in cricket for example the right decision is often made quickly and without any doubt, Tennis ? ball is proven in /out and so on. Then of course you come to the players who are basically cheats and will do anything to get a decision, how can a human being ,aka, the ref distinguish twixt cheat and genuine ,? if they get it wrong then imho its the players own fault for creating the cheats charter no doubt with encouragement from coaches, why do Rugby players find it easy to accept the refs decision and football can't? Ref's are human beings and are bound to have 'favourites ' no matter how impartial they try to be, how can the game over come that? VAR? has it's uses but has caused as much controversy as its saved. Is football now the safe haven where those who want to cheat, insult, and generally behave in a manor deemed unacceptable elsewhere showcase these unpleasant traits?
WE as fans are culpable, escalating the levels of abuse to imho, unacceptable heights but a lot of that escalation is conducted from the rostrum which is the pitch, players gesturing to fans and so on.
I have to ask myself 'am i part responsible?' being one of the GREAT Gordon Bennetts gang who instigated singing and horn blowing back in those far off innocent days! Guilty as charged me Lord!! would you be a ref?
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Feb 14, 2023 19:43:05 GMT
Some simple fixes.
Only captains talk to refs.
Red cards for surrounding/harassing the ref.
Yellow cards for questioning the ref/asking for fouls unless the captain.
Advancing free kick positions for failure to retreat, delaying or deliberately blocking free kicks.
Mic refs so decisions are explained and players comments are recorded/heard.
Abandon games and awards win to opposition when abuse of refs and officials goes too far or for persistent failure to control players.
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Post by badengas on Feb 14, 2023 19:46:11 GMT
Some simple fixes. Only captains talk to refs. Red cards for surrounding/harassing the ref. Yellow cards for questioning the ref/asking for fouls unless the captain. Advancing free kick positions for failure to retreat, delaying or deliberately blocking free kicks. Mic refs so decisions are explained and players comments are recorded/heard. Abandon games and awards win to opposition when abuse of refs and officials goes too far or for persistent failure to control players. This. Egg ball has it's faults but the refs are well treated by comparison. |
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Post by woolavingtonpirate on Feb 14, 2023 19:52:26 GMT
Considering how much money is in the game of football, it's about time the F.A started to train full time referrees through apprenticeships, accadamies etc. Experience from a young age, game after game, a league based system, the better you are the higher you go. Promote excellence. Its all about money, rather than some overweight bloke, who's never played or even watched football before, train and pay full time refs from a young age. Some really...
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Post by rememberhalifax on Feb 14, 2023 20:01:55 GMT
Some simple fixes. Only captains talk to refs. Red cards for surrounding/harassing the ref. Yellow cards for questioning the ref/asking for fouls unless the captain. Advancing free kick positions for failure to retreat, delaying or deliberately blocking free kicks. Mic refs so decisions are explained and players comments are recorded/heard. Abandon games and awards win to opposition when abuse of refs and officials goes too far or for persistent failure to control players. Your right Hugo but they wont have the balls to do it! |
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Post by warehamgas on Feb 14, 2023 20:12:23 GMT
Some simple fixes. Only captains talk to refs. Red cards for surrounding/harassing the ref. Yellow cards for questioning the ref/asking for fouls unless the captain. Advancing free kick positions for failure to retreat, delaying or deliberately blocking free kicks. Mic refs so decisions are explained and players comments are recorded/heard. Abandon games and awards win to opposition when abuse of refs and officials goes too far or for persistent failure to control players. Watching live football most weeks and you are spot on Hugo. Some simple remedies but the FA or whoever just lack the ***** to do it. Do what you’ve said there would be a spike in cards for a few weeks before it settled down and we all had a better game to watch. UTG! |
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Post by gasandelectricity on Feb 14, 2023 22:11:10 GMT
Thought ref was on balance excellent tonight.
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Post by wallywalters on Feb 14, 2023 22:14:58 GMT
That's the best referee I have seen this season. Thought he was excellent and got almost every decision correct. Well done.
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Post by kentgas on Feb 14, 2023 22:17:14 GMT
And really let the game flow. Excellent performance.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2023 22:20:17 GMT
Thought ref was on balance excellent tonight. They always are when we don’t lose. Apart from Gurnham Singh. |
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Post by eric on Feb 14, 2023 22:36:14 GMT
Thought ref was on balance excellent tonight. Agreed. Shame about the linesman in front of the east terrace who missed numerous simple offsides by being poorly positioned. |
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Post by clockendgas on Feb 15, 2023 8:07:20 GMT
Thought ref was on balance excellent tonight. They always are when we don’t lose. Apart from Gurnham Singh. Singh when we're winning 😉 |
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Post by gashead99 on Feb 15, 2023 11:05:54 GMT
I'm old enough to say I ran the line to Gurnam Singh in Football League game.
Players and managers have to set the example with regard to respect for referees. It can be incredibly difficult to referee a match when players from both sides set out to play at the very edge, and often beyond, the laws of the game.
Take JB for example. Will continually complain about referees and their attitude towards him but effectively shut Belly out at the first hint of dissent. If the sanctions for dissent were stronger, it could all but be eradicated from the game.
Take it out of the game and it probably would improve the standard of officiating. Mistakes would still be made but the pressure around them would be reduced. Most players make far more mistakes in a game than the officials though we don't treat them in the same way.
I can't think of any occasion where relaying the referee's decision and reasoning to the crowd will help in the current climate. I don't even think allowing the coaching staff to hear in real time will help if they are unable to control how they react.
Would full time referees help? Only if you think the standard is higher in the Premier League - the back pages of the papers suggest it isn't.
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Post by gulfofaden on Feb 15, 2023 11:39:20 GMT
Personally I don’t care a jot for the respect of the ref on the field. The deference and bootlicking in rugby I find distasteful. There’s nothing wrong with appealing decisions. When your mate has just had a studs up knee high challenge, try stopping players protesting. Football is a distinctly faster and more intense game than rugby or cricket. That’s why it’s more popular.
Also the concept of respecting authority for authorities sake is a bad one for youth. You should always teach kids to question authority, the reverence of age, position and power as an absolute is what allowed so many abuses of that power in the past. The entire history of most religions and most nations - sending men into barbed wire for no good reason, is another example.
As for cheating that’s easy. Video review panels who assess games in retrospect and where the camera proves no contact, but a dive resulted in an advantage, a 5-10 game ban for that player. That will almost immediately stamp it out. Rather than stop the game. No player wants a quarter of a season out for one penalty. The punishment has to be greater than the advantage. This would have the abnormally of big games like finals being worth the risk, but these have rigorous VAR anyway.
It might be an idea to let the rules also allow more physical styles. The premier league is the most successful in the world for a reason. It’s physical and also goods.
As soon fifa got out of the control of the English league, they have consistently changed the rules to favour southern and med teams (and a America) because the physical styles suit the Northern European and African teams and their smaller, faster players do a lot better when you can’t tackle them.
Diving would be less of an advantage if refs just let challenges go more. As it stands, the game is close to non contact at the top level, because they want the Messi’s, iniestas etc winning things and not the drogbas etc. it’s no surprise since it changed suddenly Spain are a serious world force.
The answer is that people dive because the authorities would rather have a game of diving than a game where physicality can win games. You can either have one or the other. Cheats who dive or physical football.
Apologies for the old school player examples but I don’t watch anything except the league rovers are in, prem and European football lost its appeal for me a long time ago.
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Post by DrFaustus on Feb 15, 2023 11:52:48 GMT
Personally I don’t care a jot for the respect of the ref on the field. The deference and bootlicking in rugby I find distasteful. There’s nothing wrong with appealing decisions. When your mate has just had a studs up knee high challenge, try stopping players protesting. Football is a distinctly faster and more intense game than rugby or cricket. That’s why it’s more popular. Also the concept of respecting authority for authorities sake is a bad one for youth. You should always teach kids to question authority, the reverence of age, position and power as an absolute is what allowed so many abuses of that power in the past. The entire history of most religions and most nations - sending men into barbed wire for no good reason, is another example. As for cheating that’s easy. Video review panels who assess games in retrospect and where the camera proves no contact, but a dive resulted in an advantage, a 5-10 game ban for that player. That will almost immediately stamp it out. Rather than stop the game. No player wants a quarter of a season out for one penalty. The punishment has to be greater than the advantage. This would have the abnormally of big games like finals being worth the risk, but these have rigorous VAR anyway. It might be an idea to let the rules also allow more physical styles. The premier league is the most successful in the world for a reason. It’s physical and also goods. As soon fifa got out of the control of the English league, they have consistently changed the rules to favour southern and med teams (and a America) because the physical styles suit the Northern European and African teams and their smaller, faster players do a lot better when you can’t tackle them. Diving would be less of an advantage if refs just let challenges go more. As it stands, the game is close to non contact at the top level, because they want the Messi’s, iniestas etc winning things and not the drogbas etc. it’s no surprise since it changed suddenly Spain are a serious world force. The answer is that people dive because the authorities would rather have a game of diving than a game where physicality can win games. You can either have one or the other. Cheats who dive or physical football. Apologies for the old school player examples but I don’t watch anything except the league rovers are in, prem and European football lost its appeal for me a long time ago. Magnificent. 👏👏 |
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Post by gashead99 on Feb 15, 2023 11:53:38 GMT
Personally I don’t care a jot for the respect of the ref on the field. The deference and bootlicking in rugby I find distasteful. There’s nothing wrong with appealing decisions. When your mate has just had a studs up knee high challenge, try stopping players protesting. Football is a distinctly faster and more intense game than rugby or cricket. That’s why it’s more popular. Also the concept of respecting authority for authorities sake is a bad one for youth. You should always teach kids to question authority, the reverence of age, position and power as an absolute is what allowed so many abuses of that power in the past. The entire history of most religions and most nations - sending men into barbed wire for no good reason, is another example. As for cheating that’s easy. Video review panels who assess games in retrospect and where the camera proves no contact, but a dive resulted in an advantage, a 5-10 game ban for that player. That will almost immediately stamp it out. Rather than stop the game. No player wants a quarter of a season out for one penalty. The punishment has to be greater than the advantage. This would have the abnormally of big games like finals being worth the risk, but these have rigorous VAR anyway. It might be an idea to let the rules also allow more physical styles. The premier league is the most successful in the world for a reason. It’s physical and also goods. As soon fifa got out of the control of the English league, they have consistently changed the rules to favour southern and med teams (and a America) because the physical styles suit the Northern European and African teams and their smaller, faster players do a lot better when you can’t tackle them. Diving would be less of an advantage if refs just let challenges go more. As it stands, the game is close to non contact at the top level, because they want the Messi’s, iniestas etc winning things and not the drogbas etc. it’s no surprise since it changed suddenly Spain are a serious world force. The answer is that people dive because the authorities would rather have a game of diving than a game where physicality can win games. You can either have one or the other. Cheats who dive or physical football. Apologies for the old school player examples but I don’t watch anything except the league rovers are in, prem and European football lost its appeal for me a long time ago. You make some good points though I disagree with your first paragraph. Rugby is far more physical, equally intense and runs the risk of significantly more serious injuries. The respect shown to referees does not lessen any of that. |
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Post by stapletongas on Feb 15, 2023 12:16:09 GMT
One current issue in local grassroots football I believe is being caused by VAR.
Everyone is seeing justice happen on the pitch on TV through VAR reviews and decisions getting overturned. That in itself is changing the principle the the referee is ultimately in charge of the game because decisions are being reviewed.
At grassroots level, in adult and junior matches, players, managers and spectators are not getting that "justice" and frustrations take over. I am watching local refs take more abuse than ever. Referees are human beings capable of making mistakes and having a bad day like anyone else and that has to be recognised. I recently pointed out to my own club that while some blamed the ref for an offside decision that denied us all 3 points, no one attributed the same blame to strikers missing point blank chances or defenders making basic errors, yet all contributed to not taking all points.
The ref is the only person on the pitch not competing for 3 points.
Back to VAR. I always argued when it was coming in that it would change teh game for the worse and that the game must by officiated the same whether it's on the Downs or at Wembley...the referee's decision must be final and all players have to accept it. The professionals have to lead the way showing how to respect and accept the refs decision and get on with the game.
I firmly believe that some of the worst victims of VAR are local refs. I've seen the evidence.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Feb 15, 2023 13:00:54 GMT
Define abuse.
Threatening a referee with violence or worse, actually trying to cause them harm. Absolutely not.
Chucking insults over their size, height, presence or colour of hair isn’t really on.
But what about telling the referee they’re doing a poor job of officiating the match. Telling them they’re sh**. Well, if they are they are fair game in my eyes.
Part of the problem is in my eyes the rules of the game being over applied. A lot of referees seem eager to blow up for the most minor of infractions and not applying the spirit of the law.
But the main problem is the apparent inconsistency of how rules are applied. For example blowing up for defenders being pulled slightly by Coburn but letting them pull his collar and rip his shirt.
The inconsistency seems to have been a huge problem since Joey has taken over and it seems to get worse week on week. More than that, it seems that sometimes the referees have a bias against us for some reason.
Obviously, the lower down the chain you go the less reasonable it seems to hold a referee to account, as the standard you’d expect to decline with the league level. Calling a referee sh** at a kids game is inappropriate regardless of how good a job they’re doing. Someone being paid to referee a league one fixture less so.
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Post by stuart1974 on Feb 15, 2023 13:28:33 GMT
At what point does a player need to take responsibility for their own conduct?
I'd certainly look at retrospective punishment for cheating.
Genuine question.
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Post by eric on Feb 15, 2023 13:43:18 GMT
One current issue in local grassroots football I believe is being caused by VAR. Everyone is seeing justice happen on the pitch on TV through VAR reviews and decisions getting overturned. That in itself is changing the principle the the referee is ultimately in charge of the game because decisions are being reviewed. At grassroots level, in adult and junior matches, players, managers and spectators are not getting that "justice" and frustrations take over. I am watching local refs take more abuse than ever. Referees are human beings capable of making mistakes and having a bad day like anyone else and that has to be recognised. I recently pointed out to my own club that while some blamed the ref for an offside decision that denied us all 3 points, no one attributed the same blame to strikers missing point blank chances or defenders making basic errors, yet all contributed to not taking all points. The ref is the only person on the pitch not competing for 3 points. Back to VAR. I always argued when it was coming in that it would change teh game for the worse and that the game must by officiated the same whether it's on the Downs or at Wembley...the referee's decision must be final and all players have to accept it. The professionals have to lead the way showing how to respect and accept the refs decision and get on with the game. I firmly believe that some of the worst victims of VAR are local refs. I've seen the evidence. Almost all professional sports have VAR or something similar and it doesn’t affect those games at grassroots level - football should be no different. If behaviour towards grassroots referees has worsened its far more likely a direct correlation to worsening behaviour in society, the sense of entitlement and lack of proper punishment by the judicial system than VAR. VAR is great, it’s the moronic management of it that is the problem. If they just became involved to overturn ‘clear and obvious’ errors as they were supposed to then things would be a lot better. Instead they have reverted to almost re-refereeing every goal or contentious decision and go searching for ways to rule out goals. I also think they should revisit offside now that we have VAR. As the technology is now identifying attackers being 1mm beyond the last defender they should move towards daylight between the attacker and defender, thus penalising someone for being offside when they are gaining a genuine ‘unfair advantage’. |
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