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Post by LJG on Sept 3, 2021 19:17:33 GMT
Now now, use your own advice - "I also suggest you read the forum rules regarding attack the post not the poster". You are getting rather personal don't you think?
Not sure why you think I'm worried. I'm not the one acting brave behind a keyboard. I'm just being a grown up and not acting like the child here. I think the mods would appreciate that I am doing so.
Apologies, I've just had enough of LGH and you suggesting i've posted something I clearly haven't, it really makes no difference to me what anybody posts, just don't know what you two are hoping to achieve. You've said plenty of times that we should stop using this thread, your last one was about a couple of hours ago. What am I trying to achieve? I'm having a chat on a football forum, is that a problem for you? What are you trying to achieve?
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Post by LJG on Sept 3, 2021 17:12:53 GMT
It's weird. I really only ever comment on JB as a manager. When I comment on him as a manager I generally make clear that I'm commenting on him as a manager and that one of the main reasons for that is that I don't really know anything about him before Fleetwood other than he did a funny accent in an interview once. Even in this thread my comments are pretty much exclusively confined to commenting on him as a manager. But whenever I do that I'm continually met with the accusation that I'm unable to properly comment on him as a manager because, as a Barton Hater, my judgement of him as a manager is clouded by my knowledge of his personal life ... of which I have nearly none. Earlier on in this thread I talked about JB's actions in press conferences last season. You basically told me I was making it up and he'd only ever done one press conference where he talked badly about the players. I illustrated that you were wrong and you didn't reply. You just kept talking about how we are all judging his personal life. Even though when I was just talking about his professional life you told me I was exaggerating and ignored any further exploration of whether or not that was true. So, what I see, rather than people focusing on JB's personal life is (including from you) people defending his dog-sh** record and behaviour AS MANAGER OF BRFC with the response that any of that criticism is completely misplaced because you know it's because of our unconscious bias. So, instead of playing mind-reader and telling us all we're only critical of JB's managerial shitness because we've read too many Sun articles about him - why don't you just respond to the actual criticism made and see whether it might be valid? Edit - in fact the OP of this thread literally only talks about JB as manager. Nothing to do with his personal life. “ You basically told me I was making it up and he'd only ever done one press conference where he talked badly about the players. I illustrated that you were wrong and you didn't reply. You just kept talking about how we are all judging his personal life. Even though when I was just talking about his professional life you told me I was exaggerating and ignored any further exploration of whether or not that was true. So, what I see, rather than people focusing on JB's personal life is (including from you) people defending his dog-sh** record and behaviour AS MANAGER OF BRFC with the response that any of that criticism is completely misplaced because you know it's because of our unconscious bias. So, instead of playing mind-reader and telling us all we're only critical of JB's managerial shitness because we've read too many Sun articles about him - why don't you just respond to the actual criticism made and see whether it might be valid?” I think you’ve mistaken me for somebody else, old boy Eh? The post you've quoted is in reply to Bluestick.
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Post by LJG on Sept 3, 2021 16:22:52 GMT
Who are you talking to? This thread is 17 pages long - much of it is you demanding we don't post on this thread any more - there is a wide-ranging discussion going on, I haven't seen anyone in about the last 14 pages demand that JB be removed the day before a match. I don't think you can really be reading people's posts properly if you think anyone has. Yeah I agree , we should stick with 3-4-3 on sat . That's exactly what a Barton "fan-boy" would say.
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Post by LJG on Sept 3, 2021 16:13:08 GMT
Who are you talking to? This thread is 17 pages long - much of it is you demanding we don't post on this thread any more - there is a wide-ranging discussion going on, I haven't seen anyone in about the last 14 pages demand that JB be removed the day before a match. I don't think you can really be reading people's posts properly if you think anyone has. Same bunch of people making the same points again and again - Do you go to matches ? Yes.
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Post by LJG on Sept 3, 2021 15:11:03 GMT
Given JB's clearly not going anywhere before tomorrow's game, why not park this thread until 5pm tomorrow? What good are you hoping to achieve demanding that JB is removed the day before our next match, one which looks entirely winnable if we can perform to anywhere near a reasonable standard. Who are you talking to? This thread is 17 pages long - much of it is you demanding we don't post on this thread any more - there is a wide-ranging discussion going on, I haven't seen anyone in about the last 14 pages demand that JB be removed the day before a match. I don't think you can really be reading people's posts properly if you think anyone has.
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Post by LJG on Sept 3, 2021 14:44:30 GMT
Or maybe the first post this morning was gasify responding to someone's reply to his post. This is what I'm talking about - trying to make out there's some sort of small deranged enclave of "Barton haters" waking up first thing in the morning to post an anti-Barton rant. You go on about "Barton haters" can't you just accept that some people don't share your opinion and stop being so narrow minded? To be honest LJG this whole “debate” is starting to get on my f**king nerves. I wouldn’t class myself as either a lover or a hater of Barton, I just want our team to play well, consistently and to the best of their abilities. To that end I dont care if Barton is here for 3 more games or 3 more seasons, I just want Rovers to be successful. It seems to me that there are extremists on both side of the divide - on the one hand there are pro-Joes who scream about a conspiracy of Barton-haters who delight in our every mishap/misfortune/ loss; on the other hand are the anti-Joes who clutch their pearls in outrage every time Barton opens his gob and seemingly regard the other side as uncaring supporters of domestic violence. Both sides seem completely and utterly incapable of seeing/understanding/accepting any point of view that opposes their own and are in the habit of crying “bully” whenever someone disagrees with them. It is getting tiresome and tedious now, to be truthful, as it is affecting and contaminating virtually every thread being posted at the moment - or at least that’s how it feels! Perhaps we should just create a separate thread that they can all do battle on, so the rest of us can enjoy more measured, reasoned argument and debate ? See my reply above. It seems to me that criticism of JB from a footballing context thus far has been completely legitimate. There are those who choose to ignore the legitimacy of those footballing criticisms and claim that they are "toxic" because they are made with "unconscious bias". I don't know where criticism of footballing and managerial decisions can be better made than on threads discussing football. Unless we have to pretend that we do not in fact have a manager in all discussions other than those limited to a dedicated Joey Barton thread?
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Post by LJG on Sept 3, 2021 14:40:29 GMT
To be honest LJG this whole “debate” is starting to get on my f**king nerves. I wouldn’t class myself as either a lover or a hater of Barton, I just want our team to play well, consistently and to the best of their abilities. To that end I dont care if Barton is here for 3 more games or 3 more seasons, I just want Rovers to be successful. It seems to me that there are extremists on both side of the divide - on the one hand there are pro-Joes who scream about a conspiracy of Barton-haters who delight in our every mishap/misfortune/ loss; on the other hand are the anti-Joes who clutch their pearls in outrage every time Barton opens his gob and seemingly regard the other side as uncaring supporters of domestic violence. Both sides seem completely and utterly incapable of seeing/understanding/accepting any point of view that opposes their own and are in the habit of . It is getting tiresome and tedious now, to be truthful, as it is affecting and contaminating virtually every thread being posted at the moment - or at least that’s how it feels! Perhaps we should just create a separate thread that they can all do battle on, so the rest of us can enjoy more measured, reasoned argument and debate ? I agree. Can I be part of the measured, reasoned group? Only you can decide that.
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Post by LJG on Sept 3, 2021 14:38:15 GMT
To be honest LJG this whole “debate” is starting to get on my f**king nerves. I wouldn’t class myself as either a lover or a hater of Barton, I just want our team to play well, consistently and to the best of their abilities. To that end I dont care if Barton is here for 3 more games or 3 more seasons, I just want Rovers to be successful. It seems to me that there are extremists on both side of the divide - on the one hand there are pro-Joes who scream about a conspiracy of Barton-haters who delight in our every mishap/misfortune/ loss; on the other hand are the anti-Joes who clutch their pearls in outrage every time Barton opens his gob and seemingly regard the other side as uncaring supporters of domestic violence. Both sides seem completely and utterly incapable of seeing/understanding/accepting any point of view that opposes their own and are in the habit of crying “bully” whenever someone disagrees with them. It is getting tiresome and tedious now, to be truthful, as it is affecting and contaminating virtually every thread being posted at the moment - or at least that’s how it feels! Perhaps we should just create a separate thread that they can all do battle on, so the rest of us can enjoy more measured, reasoned argument and debate ? I know I’ve been part of the problem with the posting on this thread keeping it alive but I completely agree… a while back I’d posted a similar point that it would be good if we could move on from focusing on JB and move to focusing on the team and their performances and JB as manager (not his private life) It's weird. I really only ever comment on JB as a manager. When I comment on him as a manager I generally make clear that I'm commenting on him as a manager and that one of the main reasons for that is that I don't really know anything about him before Fleetwood other than he did a funny accent in an interview once. Even in this thread my comments are pretty much exclusively confined to commenting on him as a manager. But whenever I do that I'm continually met with the accusation that I'm unable to properly comment on him as a manager because, as a Barton Hater, my judgement of him as a manager is clouded by my knowledge of his personal life ... of which I have nearly none. Earlier on in this thread I talked about JB's actions in press conferences last season. You basically told me I was making it up and he'd only ever done one press conference where he talked badly about the players. I illustrated that you were wrong and you didn't reply. You just kept talking about how we are all judging his personal life. Even though when I was just talking about his professional life you told me I was exaggerating and ignored any further exploration of whether or not that was true. So, what I see, rather than people focusing on JB's personal life is (including from you) people defending his dog-sh** record and behaviour AS MANAGER OF BRFC with the response that any of that criticism is completely misplaced because you know it's because of our unconscious bias. So, instead of playing mind-reader and telling us all we're only critical of JB's managerial shitness because we've read too many Sun articles about him - why don't you just respond to the actual criticism made and see whether it might be valid? Edit - in fact the OP of this thread literally only talks about JB as manager. Nothing to do with his personal life.
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Post by LJG on Sept 3, 2021 10:05:41 GMT
All this 'Innocent until proven guilty' is a slight mis-direction really. The fact the JB's wife dialed 999 (which will have been recorded), the fact that the police turned up and it was reported that there was an injury to the woman....okay, British press report so that could be rubbish! But all the events were deemed bad enough for the Police to press charges even though JB's wife decided not to. If JB is found not guilty it will more than likely be because he has a good lawyer who will get him off on a technicality. That won't detract from the fact that something happened that was bad enough for the legal system to be involved. Add to that JB's history - and if you want a good read Google 'Joey Barton, Bad boy of football'. It directed me to a league table of the worst people in football. JB was third in the table. Beaten only by No.2 a player who was a drug addict and died of a massive heart attack brought on by and overdose and No.1 a former player who is in prison for murder! Nobody cares if our football is bad, good, indifferent....all the press care about is that we have someone with an uncontrollable anger in charge of our team. I cannot for the life of me understand why Wael employed him, still backs him and thinks he is good for the club. Some valid points, the one thing I would say is that there have been numerous instances in the past where the CPS have pursued cases only for them to be criticised for doing so as there wasn’t a case (not saying this is the case here)… also just because 999 is called doesn’t mean the seriousness of what has been reported is what’s happened and Police have to attend 999 calls (again not saying this is the case here)…. His wife has released a statement after the event saying that she hadn’t requested charges to be brought and alcohol played a heavy part… Now I’m not trying to say it didn’t happen or that it shouldn’t be treated seriously, just that just because the CPS have brought the charge and Police attended doesn’t mean everything happened as has been reported and we can only know when the court case happens… it’s worth also noting that no restriction orders were put in place between JB and his wife so no consideration of threat was felt to exist… I’m not saying it’s the case here but could JBs ‘reputation’ and status play a part in the CPS pursuing something here? I have no idea…. Weren't you the one saying yesterday that people judge Barton wrongly because of unconscious bias because of what they read in the press? But you're prepared to just assume that an entire court case has come about because some secret unknown force has just decided Joey Barton needs another day in court? Do you think maybe you're not approaching things from as balanced a point a view as you think you are?
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 20:11:00 GMT
As far as I'm aware the only offence JB's been charged with his "assault by beating" he certainly hasn't been charged with "kicking her in the head", regardless given that Wael is clearly standing by him what are posters on here suppose to do, set up a petition demanding he's suspended or sacked? What good is doing BRFC or after that matter Gaschat, keep on demanding JB's sacked when Wael's clearly taking no notice? So because Wael is not taking any notice, people should stop talking about JB and his performance as manager - or lack of? Would this really be a forum then if we are not allowed to discuss certain things to do with the club, like the manager? I think Tom Nichols got hammered on here each week yet the manager kept playing him. What was the point in saying Nichols should be dropped if the manager won't be taking any notice anyway? What is the point in discussing a new stadium when the club ain't taking notice anyway. Indeed. It's weird that the person with the highest number of posts on this entire forum (by several thousand mind you) keeps telling people to stop posting on the forum. Perhaps he's afraid someone will catch him up? Though even if he posted nothing more for a year the next closest person (who is currently banned) would need to make about 11 posts per day for a year just to draw level.
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 20:06:46 GMT
The 2017 thread is certainly highly critical of the owners, and I suppose insulting, but there’s no racism in what I saw (I admit I only managed about five pages). To be honest, the main complaint seems to be about the “fake sheikh” term in the title. Though again that is intended as an insult, I don’t think it’s intended to be racist. The insult is in the “fake” bit, as the implication is that someone is pretending to be very rich when they’re not - a conman if you like. In a way the “sheikh” bit on its own is a compliment - ie a sheikh being perhaps a Saudi Prince is expected to be very rich, while impersonating one is fraudulent. Indeed, as I recall, the original “fake sheikh” was a British journalist conning British marks who were happy to break the rules to get some cash. Oh dear.
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 20:02:46 GMT
Does that *really* matter at this point. He has been charged with kicking her in the head. That is a fact and cannot be argued. Now, whether he did it or not. That does absolutely have to be proved or disproved in a court of law. I think my point is that it is already pretty toxic and JB hasn't really helped that situation by: 1) Getting charged with another criminal offence. 2) Not being able to show to fans how irreplaceable he is as we are winning games and showing that we are league 2 giants. For full disclosure, I have never been charged with kicking my wife in the head. Has anyone on this forum been charged with kicking their wife in the head and then it turned out to be a misunderstanding? As far as I'm aware the only offence JB's been charged with his "assault by beating" he certainly hasn't been charged with "kicking her in the head", regardless given that Wael is clearly standing by him what are posters on here suppose to do, set up a petition demanding he's suspended or sacked? What good is doing BRFC or after that matter Gaschat, keep on demanding JB's sacked when Wael's clearly taking no notice? What a daft thing to say. He's charged with assault by beating because he's accused of kicking his wife in the head. Are you seriously trying to split hairs over that?
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 19:58:10 GMT
That's fair enough eric. The bit I highlighted though above, would it be fair to say it's both sides? Or are you in agreement with Topper that it's the anti JB group that creates the toxicity? The fact this thread was posted on and so brought back to everybody's attention this morning surely highlights that, as I doubt most fair minded fans first thoughts today were that Barton should be sacked, after we won on Tuesday and Wael had backed him during the transfer window. Or maybe the first post this morning was gasify responding to someone's reply to his post. This is what I'm talking about - trying to make out there's some sort of small deranged enclave of "Barton haters" waking up first thing in the morning to post an anti-Barton rant. You go on about "Barton haters" can't you just accept that some people don't share your opinion and stop being so narrow minded?
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 16:37:06 GMT
You don't seem to be applying your logic very consistently. JB doesn't have to take care about what he says in the press about the players, coaches, medical staff, recruitment, board members, former managers because that constant stream of negativity won't create a toxic environment. But we must take care in how we respond because being annoyed by someone trashing the club in the press week in week out will create toxicity? Sorry, I'm still not getting it. I think there’s a slight exaggeration here? It’s not been constant negativity - he called out one player once and previous coaches twice when explaining challenges he faced coming into the club. Now is that something I think was right? As I said probably not but do I also think that creates a toxic environment? No - far from it. Do I believe fans can and have a right to be annoyed by it? Of course but do I think that that should be used to evidence an incompetent manager or to continually criticise him? No. We choose how we respond to triggers which that is just like he chose whether to say those things or not… I don't think there's any exaggeration at all. The Max Ehmer stuff. The players need to be taken out in the street and shot. Players not fit to be professionals (plenty of them playing above us now). Commemts about medical staff comments re Nicholson. Those are just a couple of separate examples off the top of my head. So no not comments about a player once. If anything you are exaggerating the other way to make him look better.
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 15:12:13 GMT
Sorry what does the bit in bold mean please? If he only has one conviction how can he have been fined and had a custodial sentence? Doesn't that add up to two? I'm not disagreeing with your statement that each person is responsible for their own actions. The post you responded to stated it's a shame JB can't do the same i.e. be responsible for his own actions - you now seem to say he shouldn't because he was young and it's all a biased press reporting. You seem a bit conflicted about who should be taking responsibility for what. As a general response to your earlier post I don't think your point is correct on that front. If your workplace employed someone who was terrible at their job, slated the business you work for in the press, publicly slated your bosses, publicly slated you as an employee and your colleagues, I think you'd probably consider it a bit of a P?!s-take if, when you, rightly, expressed upset/concern/annoyance about that you were told "Well bluestick, what a toxic person you are for creating such a toxic atmosphere in the workplace. You really need to take responsibility for your own actions and stop making this such a bad place to work". Sorry LJG I meant he had only ever had one custodial conviction and the other incidents he received fines from his club or FA rather than through a court of law…. Re the toxic environment - he called out an opinion based upon what he had seen and experienced, much of what the fan base were saying too… do I think he was right to do so? Probably not as I believe it’s better to air dirty laundry in private but re Ehmer, we don’t know what conversations he had had previously internally and he was maybe doing it to then get Ehmer to do a I’m going to prove you wrong kinda thing…. But him calling Ehmer out and saying that he felt BG and PT did things wrong publicly would not create a toxic environment in my opinion. My argument is that yes that could be a trigger but how we as fans decide to respond and act is what creates the toxic environment You don't seem to be applying your logic very consistently. JB doesn't have to take care about what he says in the press about the players, coaches, medical staff, recruitment, board members, former managers because that constant stream of negativity won't create a toxic environment. But we must take care in how we respond because being annoyed by someone trashing the club in the press week in week out will create toxicity? Sorry, I'm still not getting it.
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 14:47:54 GMT
I'm not really sure what your point is. What does it matter whether he read the fact that JB has previous convictions, saw it on TV or it came to him in a divine hallucination? JB's previous convictions are a matter of fact. Not opinion. Yes but only one actual conviction - other incidents found unproven or not followed up or fines due to provocation or insufficient evidence or lack of ‘victims’ wanting to press charges… All of these where an outcome was found or admitted were also a long time ago when JB was young. My point is is that people claim he is a thug etc etc which in my opinion comes from biased views read in the press and this then influences their opinion of him as a manager/performance to the extent threads like this come about. Claims that JB is responsible for creating the toxic atmosphere/split fan base in my opinion are also wrong because I believe we are responsible for that as we are the ones who can control our behaviours and what we think…. Sorry what does the bit in bold mean please? If he only has one conviction how can he have been fined and had a custodial sentence? Doesn't that add up to two? I'm not disagreeing with your statement that each person is responsible for their own actions. The post you responded to stated it's a shame JB can't do the same i.e. be responsible for his own actions - you now seem to say he shouldn't because he was young and it's all a biased press reporting. You seem a bit conflicted about who should be taking responsibility for what. As a general response to your earlier post I don't think your point is correct on that front. If your workplace employed someone who was terrible at their job, slated the business you work for in the press, publicly slated your bosses, publicly slated you as an employee and your colleagues, I think you'd probably consider it a bit of a water-take if, when you, rightly, expressed upset/concern/annoyance about that you were told "Well bluestick, what a toxic person you are for creating such a toxic atmosphere in the workplace. You really need to take responsibility for your own actions and stop making this such a bad place to work".
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 14:07:05 GMT
I'm not saying anything. I'm saying that you have a view about his misdemeanours and others have a different view. You challenged another poster on their view because they did not have first hand experience. I'm simply pointing out you don't need experience of anything to take a view on his previous convictions. As to the point about no managers got that team to perform - I disagree and do so every time someone says this to me. Wins against Lincoln and holding our own against Sheff U showed that managers could get those players to perform. Sorry I think you’ve misunderstood me - I wasn’t meaning to challenge the poster because he doesn’t have first hand experience, more that is his view based upon what he has read (which could be biased) and therefore is that perception then influencing his opinion on JB not only as a person but also his competence as a manager… Re the results - I agree there were odd results where performances were ok but never any consistency and they always appeared as 1 offs… JB has got us 2 wins and other odd wins last season …. I don’t believe you can say he’s incompetent because none of the managers managed to get consistent wins and performances last season. FWIW I was in the camp that we sacked BG too early but I do understand why we did. Im also in the camp that this season we have started poorly (but there are reasons for that in my opinion) but based upon the results of the last 4 games that we are improving. Now we need to see this continue with a decent W / D ratio v L other the next month or so for it to be truly said that our form has turned but we have green shoots… In my opinion JB performed no worse than BG or PT last season and he didn’t have the luxury of being able to affect change via a transfer window. In my opinion I think he is being treated unfairly by some and that is because their unconscious bias and perceptions are influencing how they view him and his performance. Just my opinion which I appreciate is no more or less valid than anyone else’s. I’m just trying to give a balanced view… I'm not really sure what your point is. What does it matter whether he read the fact that JB has previous convictions, saw it on TV or it came to him in a divine hallucination? JB's previous convictions are a matter of fact. Not opinion.
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 13:29:28 GMT
Well a prison sentence isn't a matter of press reporting is it? He either went to prison or he didn't. Not sure how much more "first hand experience" is required to make a personal judgement about that and I'm not sure you can really paint people's feelings about that as illegitimate. As far as I'm concerned his actions as manager of Bristol Rovers, which I've experienced first hand, are enough to show he is not competent. Yes JB went to Prison in 2008 for common assault and affray… he was released after 74 days… That was 13 years ago when he was 25…. Are you saying that he can never change or learn from that experience? Or that maturity and growing up never happens? As I said, if he hasn’t learnt from it and he is found guilty then he should get the punishment he deserves but until then he should be given a clean slate. What if it was you and you had served a prison sentence 13 years ago? Would you feel it’s fair that you were not given a chance? Re his competence, I hold a different view as I appreciate the environment he was brought into last season - I mean he wasn’t the only manager last season who couldn’t get performances or results from the players? And in my eyes the players have to take some responsibilities. This season, the disruption to pre season and injuries to key players have had an influence on our results so far but as I said, the form over the last 4 games is W2, D1 L1 which to me shows improvement and I would suggest he is competent having overhauled the squad in the summer. His time at Fleetwood too would suggest that he is competent? I’m not saying anyone’s view is invalid or is not right, I’m just trying to provide balance and perspective from a different viewpoint and I’m interested in understanding how much unconscious bias is at play…. I'm not saying anything. I'm saying that you have a view about his misdemeanours and others have a different view. You challenged another poster on their view because they did not have first hand experience. I'm simply pointing out you don't need experience of anything to take a view on his previous convictions. As to the point about no managers got that team to perform - I disagree and do so every time someone says this to me. Wins against Lincoln and holding our own against Sheff U showed that managers could get those players to perform.
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 12:24:23 GMT
Yes there are 2 sides to every story, even suicide bombers have their own story - not sure it makes it right though? Shame JB cannot You are entitled to your view but I guess unless you know JB, were there or have first hand experience of it through police records then it is only your perception based upon what has been reported in the press? Well a prison sentence isn't a matter of press reporting is it? He either went to prison or he didn't. Not sure how much more "first hand experience" is required to make a personal judgement about that and I'm not sure you can really paint people's feelings about that as illegitimate. As far as I'm concerned his actions as manager of Bristol Rovers, which I've experienced first hand, are enough to show he is not competent.
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Post by LJG on Sept 2, 2021 10:06:48 GMT
Let me be clear. I am in no way accusing swissgas of making racist comments. To my knowledge Swissgas has never made a racist comment in his life. I have never read anything by Swissgas which can be said to be racist. I apologise if that is the impression I gave. However, there is a usual hardcore of Wael skeptics, Swiss is prominent among those, and the narrative from those Wael skeptics gives the strong impression that Wael not being British is factorial in their dislike of his ownership of the club. Thanks for clearing that one up LJG. I know that Swiss has actively tried to encourage overseas investment into Rovers in the past so I think that you might have misjudged him on this one. Just to add after a quick search on this forum I found references to "Fake Sheikh" so the phrase isn't exclusive to the other forum. Have a great day and hope they find the low life who publicly racially abused Wael. The fake sheikh phrase is certainly not exclusive there or here. From memory I have also seen it on Facebook I believe.
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