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Post by Henbury Gas on Oct 24, 2017 12:43:06 GMT
and one of his mates owns a big club in London so plenty of history on running a football club Brentford? Getting Warmer....
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Post by baggins on Oct 24, 2017 12:46:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 12:53:20 GMT
I really don't feel comfortable with the increasing loan balance to Dwaine Sports and really do think it's putting the future of the club at risk. It took years for us to own our own ground and from what I understand all the money put into the club is now secured against the Mem. If at some future day the Al Quad's do want out then they could just sell the ground and get their money back and would probably pocket a lot more than trying to sell the club and ground as a package. I'll certainly not feel comfortable until the loan is converted into shares which would be the best evidence of a long term commitment from the family. Past owners have been fans and whilst Wael might be, I cannot see the family being willing to write off the loan, which some say is approaching £10m, to facilitate the club's sale as a going concern when they could probably get more back by selling the ground for development.
Not at all a dig, just being inquisitive- you say "increasing loan balance to Dwaine Sports", how do you know that it is increasing? Also, how is this situation any different to the previous regime- the board loaning money to keep the club afloat? Did you feel as uneasy over the previous 10-15 years?
If the club is loosing money which we are, then someone will need to put money into the club to pay the bills ...no evidence from companies house that this is being done my issuing new shares therefore must be funds advanced through loan account as evidenced by the new charge on the Mem. The Dunfords and indeed Higgs were fans and I had confidence they would not sell the Mem although I was equally worried when the Mem was put up as secutity for the Womga loan. The difference is the Al Quadis' don't have an emotional attachment to the club - Wael unfortunately does not control the purse strings Hani is the Chairman of Dwaine Sports not Wael.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 12:59:16 GMT
It's puzzling why a banking family would even want to buy football club when the vast majority are like money black holes. If Wael had a vast personal fortune and the club was his hobby / play thing, I'd get it. But needing daddy and brother's agreement on every big decision, I just don't see much fun in that for him .. I can't see how this is going to end well for the club: new owners don't have enough money to build a required new ground + realistically we're in too much debt for anyone else to want to take over the reigns (unless the owners are willing to write-off the loan, but why would they?). Still, I suppose there's no point in worrying about something over which we have no control. Well put, that's exactly how I see things and you have explained better than I could.
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Post by baggins on Oct 24, 2017 12:59:51 GMT
Not at all a dig, just being inquisitive- you say "increasing loan balance to Dwaine Sports", how do you know that it is increasing? Also, how is this situation any different to the previous regime- the board loaning money to keep the club afloat? Did you feel as uneasy over the previous 10-15 years?
If the club is loosing money which we are, then someone will need to put money into the club to pay the bills ...no evidence from companies house that this is being done my issuing new shares therefore must be funds advanced through loan account as evidenced by the new charge on the Mem. The Dunfords and indeed Higgs were fans and I had confidence they would not sell the Mem although I was equally worried when the Mem was put up as secutity for the Womga loan. The difference is the Al Quadis' don't have an emotional attachment to the club - Wael unfortunately does not control the purse strings Hani is the Chairman of Dwaine Sports not Wael. And there's still no evidence whatsoever that Hani has said Wael can't spend what he wants.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 13:16:08 GMT
Depends if you had money invested in the Bank his family owns. Pretty sure his family owns less than 50% in the bank, and regardless are answerable to all of its shareholders. The family have roughly a 30% shareholding in AJIB - Wael's shareholding is approximately 4%. The father within the overall family has the largest shareholding - approximately - 17%. They are not a money tree - like any business Dwane Sports will have to generate loans from somewhere - if it's from AJIB they will have to pay interest. I can imagine (rightly or wrongly) DS will then fund Dwane Colony and I would anticipate another business entity Dwane Community Stadium. Both businesses will have to generate their own revenue streams and will repay their respective loans to DS who will then repay - let's assume AJIB - under any financial arrangement they have made with them. The advantage for the ALQ's is they have interests (and probably more protection) in every entity from the top down. Knowall will I'm sure put me right if I'm wrong (I'm not being facetious here Knowall) - just my take on it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 13:28:04 GMT
It's puzzling why a banking family would even want to buy football club when the vast majority are like money black holes. If Wael had a vast personal fortune and the club was his hobby / play thing, I'd get it. But needing daddy and brother's agreement on every big decision, I just don't see much fun in that for him .. I can't see how this is going to end well for the club: new owners don't have enough money to build a required new ground + realistically we're in too much debt for anyone else to want to take over the reigns (unless the owners are willing to write-off the loan, but why would they?). Still, I suppose there's no point in worrying about something over which we have no control. I've not read one fact that suggests Wael needs permission from his Father or his Brother to spend. And yes, this is his ambition to own a Football Club and yes I'm sure he went into this knowing Football Clubs suck up money, yes I'm sure he had many conversations with other club owners as to what's expected of him, he's not an idiot. The one fact you are looking for is Dwaine Sport is not wholly owned by Wael, a second fact is Hani not Wael is Chairman so Wael does not have a free hand I would suggest.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 13:37:27 GMT
I've not read one fact that suggests Wael needs permission from his Father or his Brother to spend. And yes, this is his ambition to own a Football Club and yes I'm sure he went into this knowing Football Clubs suck up money, yes I'm sure he had many conversations with other club owners as to what's expected of him, he's not an idiot. The one fact you are looking for is Dwaine Sport is not wholly owned by Wael, a second fact is Hani not Wael is Chairman so Wael does not have a free hand I would suggest. At which point do people get the difference between working capital and investment capital?
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Post by Henbury Gas on Oct 24, 2017 14:34:07 GMT
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Post by toddy1953 on Oct 24, 2017 14:52:09 GMT
We are in a better position financially at present, than under the last board, as basically their credit had run dry (hence the wonga loan). The club, now have a manager on a 5 year deal, budget for a first team in L1, we have a development squad and have recruited background staff that is required for L1, which all cost more to maintain than under NH reign. We have paid £1m ? for a training ground & I assume have incurred costs re planning processes & also incurred costs from 18 months negotiation with UWE. However, IF we currently need an attendance greater than the capacity of the Mem to break even, then looking at previous losses off the top of my head, I would think that unless we get a windfall (selling BB / cup run/ TV money for promotion) then our losses for this season will be around £2m - some can probably do the maths with more accuracy. Now hypothetically it will probably be another 5 years + before we see anything re a new or revamped stadium & if we maintain our league position, then the debt will probably be double what it is now - if you add in the cost of providing the new training facility, that will be the thick end of £30m, before any costs to rebuild the stadium are taken in to account. I accept I am looking at worse case here, and am not normally that type of person, but it seems to me, we need a min investment of £60 m over the next 5 years, if we are to be sat in a tidy stadium by then. We are going to need some really good income streams going forward to attract that investment. With this in mind & seeing DS spent 18 months negotiating with UWE, only to pull out as the deal - whatever it was - was not good for the long term future of the club, I think some proper communication is due from them. They MUST have a vision or a plan, for how the infrastructure will look, if they are honest & that dealing with UWE was one step forward & three back at times, then not to have a back up plan, shows a lack of business sense - hence I can understand those saying the family want out. Wael seems a lovely bloke & I am sure he has the best of intentions, but IMO he really needs to share a vision, whether we all like it or not, at least it will stop all the speculation.
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Post by abbeygas on Oct 24, 2017 15:18:18 GMT
I'm guessing it is something to do with WAQ's tourism sideline so Tony Fernandes/QPR?
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Post by faggotygas on Oct 24, 2017 15:58:33 GMT
We are in a better position financially at present, than under the last board, as basically their credit had run dry (hence the wonga loan). The club, now have a manager on a 5 year deal, budget for a first team in L1, we have a development squad and have recruited background staff that is required for L1, which all cost more to maintain than under NH reign. We have paid £1m ? for a training ground & I assume have incurred costs re planning processes & also incurred costs from 18 months negotiation with UWE. However, IF we currently need an attendance greater than the capacity of the Mem to break even, then looking at previous losses off the top of my head, I would think that unless we get a windfall (selling BB / cup run/ TV money for promotion) then our losses for this season will be around £2m - some can probably do the maths with more accuracy. Now hypothetically it will probably be another 5 years + before we see anything re a new or revamped stadium & if we maintain our league position, then the debt will probably be double what it is now - if you add in the cost of providing the new training facility, that will be the thick end of £30m, before any costs to rebuild the stadium are taken in to account. I accept I am looking at worse case here, and am not normally that type of person, but it seems to me, we need a min investment of £60 m over the next 5 years, if we are to be sat in a tidy stadium by then. We are going to need some really good income streams going forward to attract that investment. With this in mind & seeing DS spent 18 months negotiating with UWE, only to pull out as the deal - whatever it was - was not good for the long term future of the club, I think some proper communication is due from them. They MUST have a vision or a plan, for how the infrastructure will look, if they are honest & that dealing with UWE was one step forward & three back at times, then not to have a back up plan, shows a lack of business sense - hence I can understand those saying the family want out. Wael seems a lovely bloke & I am sure he has the best of intentions, but IMO he really needs to share a vision, whether we all like it or not, at least it will stop all the speculation. Good post. Like I said before, being in a better position than under Higgs does not necessarily mean that the position is a good one - it might just be less bad.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 16:12:41 GMT
I would guess that Dwane sports have a business plan and budget for the year. Which was worked out and agreed upon by the Al Qadi family. The belittling attempts of making Wael look like a schoolboy asking for pocket money are frankly embarrassing. Wael will know exactly how much money is available throughout the year and will let Steve Hamer know what he feels he needs to know to run the club smoothly.
The biggest concern fans should have is the previous boards encouraged the Mem site to get planning consent for a variety of things from supermarkets to hotels to flats and bars. Which means its unlikely the council can insist the site remains as a sporting venue in the future. Which means it can go on the open market to the highest bidder for whatever use.
However I wouldn't worry too much...a new East stand will start being built before the end of next season.
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Post by daniel300380 on Oct 24, 2017 16:23:13 GMT
Pretty sure his family owns less than 50% in the bank, and regardless are answerable to all of its shareholders. The family have roughly a 30% shareholding in AJIB - Wael's shareholding is approximately 4%. The father within the overall family has the largest shareholding - approximately - 17%. They are not a money tree - like any business Dwane Sports will have to generate loans from somewhere - if it's from AJIB they will have to pay interest. I can imagine (rightly or wrongly) DS will then fund Dwane Colony and I would anticipate another business entity Dwane Community Stadium. Both businesses will have to generate their own revenue streams and will repay their respective loans to DS who will then repay - let's assume AJIB - under any financial arrangement they have made with them. The advantage for the ALQ's is they have interests (and probably more protection) in every entity from the top down. Knowall will I'm sure put me right if I'm wrong (I'm not being facetious here Knowall) - just my take on it. The family own a lot more than just the banks though. They have different businesses all over the world. None of us have a clue how much money they have. So it's pointless trying to guess either way. Plus they have lots of contacts and potential investors, all over the world.
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Post by Marshy on Oct 24, 2017 17:59:52 GMT
The family have roughly a 30% shareholding in AJIB - Wael's shareholding is approximately 4%. The father within the overall family has the largest shareholding - approximately - 17%. They are not a money tree - like any business Dwane Sports will have to generate loans from somewhere - if it's from AJIB they will have to pay interest. I can imagine (rightly or wrongly) DS will then fund Dwane Colony and I would anticipate another business entity Dwane Community Stadium. Both businesses will have to generate their own revenue streams and will repay their respective loans to DS who will then repay - let's assume AJIB - under any financial arrangement they have made with them. The advantage for the ALQ's is they have interests (and probably more protection) in every entity from the top down. Knowall will I'm sure put me right if I'm wrong (I'm not being facetious here Knowall) - just my take on it. The family own a lot more than just the banks though. They have different businesses all over the world. None of us have a clue how much money they have. So it's pointless trying to guess either way. Plus they have lots of contacts and potential investors, all over the world. Rumour has it they own a football club too.
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Post by Topper Gas on Oct 24, 2017 18:33:07 GMT
The family have roughly a 30% shareholding in AJIB - Wael's shareholding is approximately 4%. The father within the overall family has the largest shareholding - approximately - 17%. They are not a money tree - like any business Dwane Sports will have to generate loans from somewhere - if it's from AJIB they will have to pay interest. I can imagine (rightly or wrongly) DS will then fund Dwane Colony and I would anticipate another business entity Dwane Community Stadium. Both businesses will have to generate their own revenue streams and will repay their respective loans to DS who will then repay - let's assume AJIB - under any financial arrangement they have made with them. The advantage for the ALQ's is they have interests (and probably more protection) in every entity from the top down. Knowall will I'm sure put me right if I'm wrong (I'm not being facetious here Knowall) - just my take on it. The family own a lot more than just the banks though. They have different businesses all over the world. None of us have a clue how much money they have. So it's pointless trying to guess either way. Plus they have lots of contacts and potential investors, all over the world. Thanks Steve but what business do they own, as far as I can see apart from an interest in AJIB the only other business they have a direct interest in is the Four Seasons hotel in Amman, Jordan. Just noticed in one article after the takeover Wael agreed with with the late GD's views! “A new stadium has to be built. We cannot be sustainable if we stay at the Memorial,” www.theguardian.com/football/2016/oct/31/his-bodyguard-looked-like-he-wanted-to-kill-me-abramovichs-german-ambush?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Gmail
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Post by axegas on Oct 24, 2017 18:43:02 GMT
The family own a lot more than just the banks though. They have different businesses all over the world. None of us have a clue how much money they have. So it's pointless trying to guess either way. Plus they have lots of contacts and potential investors, all over the world. Thanks Steve but what business do they own, as far as I can see apart from an interest in AJIB the only other business they have a direct interest in is the Four Seasons hotel in Amman, Jordan. Just noticed in one article after the takeover Wael agreed with with the late GD's views! “A new stadium has to be built. We cannot be sustainable if we stay at the Memorial,” www.theguardian.com/football/2016/oct/31/his-bodyguard-looked-like-he-wanted-to-kill-me-abramovichs-german-ambush?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Gmail I think he's referring to the Mem in its current state. We will be building four new stands on the site so that's sort of building a new stadium. Interesting that they have experience of hotel management. I doubt Horfield is somewhere that Four seasons would consider a franchise but I'm sure that experience will be useful if the project goes ahead.
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Post by adrian301 on Oct 24, 2017 19:15:20 GMT
Thing is......I expect Wael to get us promoted ASAP! What is the point of having all that money and tinkering with training grounds etc. Just get the cheque book out and buy some quality. You will only get the TV money by being in a higher division. Bournemouth have a similar capacity to us and they're doing alright.
So come on Wael employ Kevin Keegan as our Director of Football and let the good times roll!!
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Post by abbeygas on Oct 24, 2017 19:36:12 GMT
Thing is......I expect Wael to get us promoted ASAP! What is the point of having all that money and tinkering with training grounds etc. Just get the cheque book out and buy some quality. You will only get the TV money by being in a higher division. Bournemouth have a similar capacity to us and they're doing alright. So come on Wael employ Kevin Keegan as our Director of Football and let the good times roll!! Have you been playing FIFA 18 in career mode again?
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Post by Topper Gas on Oct 24, 2017 19:41:07 GMT
I think he's referring to the Mem in its current state. We will be building four new stands on the site so that's sort of building a new stadium. Interesting that they have experience of hotel management. I doubt Horfield is somewhere that Four seasons would consider a franchise but I'm sure that experience will be useful if the project goes ahead. Assuming what was published is word for word what he said he clearly stated "at the Mem" not "at the Mem unless it's regenerated" or "at the Mem in its present state".
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