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Post by CheshireGas on Mar 14, 2018 9:29:55 GMT
And a lot of that debt was caused by Higgs with extortionate Wonga loans and costs for UWE that have had to be added back to P&L because they can't be capitalised and bills outstanding. A little bit of the eyes wide open that you are harping on about wouldn't go amiss..... I've probably forgotten more about company accounts over a thirty year career than you ever learnt pal. So take your condescension elsewhere. The losses occurred under the Al Qadi regime when the stadium failed. It failed on their watch, and even now the truth about why has never been disclosed. Remember that old chestnut 'secrecy agreement'. Really.... and I have worked with companies for 40 plus years so your arrogance and condescension are water off a ducks back. You don't know anything about me or my background so don't assume you know any more or any less than me. If you do know anything about accounting you would know that Higgs was going to capitalise expenses incurred under his regime and that those have had to be taken from the P & L once the stadium fell away. So expenses incurred before the Al-Qadi takeover were charged to P& L after. Oh and its called a "Confidentiality Agreement" not a "secrecy agreement" and I have used them over 40 years. Have a good day
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Post by Topper Gas on Mar 14, 2018 9:40:55 GMT
If you can't challenge why we're running up £3m annual debts Inc £250K wasted on an office in London whilst being told we have a bottom half budget but a top 6 average home attendance, we may as well all become nodding dogs. there are justifiable questions to be asked and I would never want anyone to stop asking them or asking them myself.
The issue I have is people trying to pick holes in something, and what seems like desperately trying to find something wrong (and that isn't necessarily aimed at you Topper)
Interest charges on directors loans have been in the accounts for years. Not exactly a stick to beat the new owners with as if this is something new and unheard of
the office. the cost is coming out of 1883Ltd, but 1883Ltd is Dwane Sports, so whom is losing out over whom exactly? Likewise Mike Turner's expenses
The charge on The Mem again isn't exactly an odd business practice.
I get that some of these things will look odd, or not make any sense, but it is about asking the right questions and being able to understand the answers and how the Group of Companies is structured.
Given DS is hidden away in Jersey I doubt we'll ever know how that company is structured. What we do know is we're oozing vast sums of money with really little to show for it when it comes to the match day experience apart from a change in the pie suppliers!
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Post by Henbury Gas on Mar 14, 2018 9:44:23 GMT
there are justifiable questions to be asked and I would never want anyone to stop asking them or asking them myself.
The issue I have is people trying to pick holes in something, and what seems like desperately trying to find something wrong (and that isn't necessarily aimed at you Topper)
Interest charges on directors loans have been in the accounts for years. Not exactly a stick to beat the new owners with as if this is something new and unheard of
the office. the cost is coming out of 1883Ltd, but 1883Ltd is Dwane Sports, so whom is losing out over whom exactly? Likewise Mike Turner's expenses
The charge on The Mem again isn't exactly an odd business practice.
I get that some of these things will look odd, or not make any sense, but it is about asking the right questions and being able to understand the answers and how the Group of Companies is structured.
Given DS is hidden away in Jersey I doubt we'll ever know how that company is structured. What we do know is we're oozing vast sums of money with really little to show for it when it comes to the match day experience apart from a change in the pie suppliers! "We" are not oozing vast sums of Money, the owners of the club are ie Dwane Sports
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Post by Parrot on Mar 14, 2018 9:46:07 GMT
there are justifiable questions to be asked and I would never want anyone to stop asking them or asking them myself.
The issue I have is people trying to pick holes in something, and what seems like desperately trying to find something wrong (and that isn't necessarily aimed at you Topper)
Interest charges on directors loans have been in the accounts for years. Not exactly a stick to beat the new owners with as if this is something new and unheard of
the office. the cost is coming out of 1883Ltd, but 1883Ltd is Dwane Sports, so whom is losing out over whom exactly? Likewise Mike Turner's expenses
The charge on The Mem again isn't exactly an odd business practice.
I get that some of these things will look odd, or not make any sense, but it is about asking the right questions and being able to understand the answers and how the Group of Companies is structured.
Given DS is hidden away in Jersey I doubt we'll ever know how that company is structured. What we do know is we're oozing vast sums of money with really little to show for it when it comes to the match day experience apart from a change in the pie suppliers! Did you not notice the new players tunnel ?
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Post by CheshireGas on Mar 14, 2018 9:49:20 GMT
I can understand confidentitality agreements whilst a deal is being negotiated and upon its successful conclusion until a project is signed off. I don’t understand it for a failed project where both sides failed to agree where the deal is completely dead. At least us paying customers, although I prefer to call us fans, would have a better idea where we stand. The build cost for the original UWE was £35m. Allow £5m for inflation costs of materials (which I think is generous) then a complete project was £40m. I know that the ALQs also looked at changing various aspects of the build including putting a hotel complex on site, now that could explain the £60m being touted about. Either way the ALQs have given up the best chance we have had for a stadium, and so far, there are no concrete plans to replace them apart from tarting up the Mem. A Confidentiality Agreement often has no end date as the discussions between two parties remain that way ad infinitum or until private information they have shared between them in confidence they then choose to share in the public domain. For example the Al-Qadis might have to disclose financial information to UWE to prove they can afford to proceed or UWE may disclose confidential information about their future plans. Neither party might want that info made common knowledge. I have been involved in company takeovers which have fallen away but the highly confidential and market sensitive information they have shared is still covered by the binding Confidentiality Agreement for years after.
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Post by peterparker on Mar 14, 2018 9:52:58 GMT
there are justifiable questions to be asked and I would never want anyone to stop asking them or asking them myself.
The issue I have is people trying to pick holes in something, and what seems like desperately trying to find something wrong (and that isn't necessarily aimed at you Topper)
Interest charges on directors loans have been in the accounts for years. Not exactly a stick to beat the new owners with as if this is something new and unheard of
the office. the cost is coming out of 1883Ltd, but 1883Ltd is Dwane Sports, so whom is losing out over whom exactly? Likewise Mike Turner's expenses
The charge on The Mem again isn't exactly an odd business practice.
I get that some of these things will look odd, or not make any sense, but it is about asking the right questions and being able to understand the answers and how the Group of Companies is structured.
Given DS is hidden away in Jersey I doubt we'll ever know how that company is structured. What we do know is we're oozing vast sums of money with really little to show for it when it comes to the match day experience apart from a change in the pie suppliers! Dwane Sports own 1883 ltd, 1883lts in turn owns Bristol Rovers Football Club and owns The Memorial Stadium (separate entities). Dwane Sports fund 1883Ltd. 1883Ltd loses money, this is a cost to Dwane Sports and by extension The Al-Qadi Family and however they get there money Replace Dwane Sports with Nick Higgs That bit is quite simply to understand I would say.
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Post by faggotygas on Mar 14, 2018 10:02:30 GMT
I've probably forgotten more about company accounts over a thirty year career than you ever learnt pal. So take your condescension elsewhere. The losses occurred under the Al Qadi regime when the stadium failed. It failed on their watch, and even now the truth about why has never been disclosed. Remember that old chestnut 'secrecy agreement'. Really.... and I have worked with companies for 40 plus years so your arrogance and condescension are water off a ducks back. You don't know anything about me or my background so don't assume you know any more or any less than me. If you do know anything about accounting you would know that Higgs was going to capitalise expenses incurred under his regime and that those have had to be taken from the P & L once the stadium fell away. So expenses incurred before the Al-Qadi takeover were charged to P& L after. Oh and its called a "Confidentiality Agreement" not a "secrecy agreement" and I have used them over 40 years. Have a good day If I may, I think you are actually not disagreeing with each other, but looking at things differently.
Cheshire is rightly pointing out that the expenses relating to the stadium were mainly spent or accrued by the previous regime, and capitalised.
Gasincider is rightly pointing out that they would have stayed capitalised, and not appeared on P&L, if the stadium had gone ahead - and it was the al-Qadi's decision to not go ahead.
The old board spent money on something that turned out to be valueless. The new board made the final decision to make the spending valueless.
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Post by Captain Jayho on Mar 14, 2018 10:02:58 GMT
Given DS is hidden away in Jersey I doubt we'll ever know how that company is structured. What we do know is we're oozing vast sums of money with really little to show for it when it comes to the match day experience apart from a change in the pie suppliers! Dwane Sports own 1883 ltd, 1883lts in turn owns Bristol Rovers Football Club and owns The Memorial Stadium (separate entities). Dwane Sports fund 1883Ltd. 1883Ltd loses money, this is a cost to Dwane Sports and by extension The Al-Qadi Family and however they get there money Replace Dwane Sports with Nick Higgs That bit is quite simply to understand I would say. But this just seems like smoke and mirrors to me - no matter how commonplace it is in football circles. The bit I'd like to understand properly is if Dwane Sports accumulate a 30 million pound debt over the next ten years and then decide they want to sell up, where does this put us as a club? I am a total ignoramus when it comes to the pigeon holing of debt into various offshore locations but surely at that point in time they would need someone prepared to purchase a run down ramshackle league one club for thirty million plus if they want their money back - which seems preposterous. Or they'd need to write off that debt and sell the club for a more realistic value - which seems equally unlikely. I just struggle to see an end game to this spiralling debt no matter which box they decide to put it in. I appreciate this is happening all over the football world but I'd love to understand what happens to this debt that apparently doesn't belong to the club when the inevitable change in ownership arrives - irrespective of whether that is in the short, medium or long term.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2018 10:10:03 GMT
Given DS is hidden away in Jersey I doubt we'll ever know how that company is structured. What we do know is we're oozing vast sums of money with really little to show for it when it comes to the match day experience apart from a change in the pie suppliers! Dwane Sports own 1883 ltd, 1883lts in turn owns Bristol Rovers Football Club and owns The Memorial Stadium (separate entities). Dwane Sports fund 1883Ltd. 1883Ltd loses money, this is a cost to Dwane Sports and by extension The Al-Qadi Family and however they get there money Replace Dwane Sports with Nick Higgs That bit is quite simply to understand I would say. Bristol Rovers 1883 ltd owns the Memorial Stadium. It isn’t a separate company and hasn’t been so for approx 15 years.
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Post by faggotygas on Mar 14, 2018 10:10:04 GMT
Dwane Sports own 1883 ltd, 1883lts in turn owns Bristol Rovers Football Club and owns The Memorial Stadium (separate entities). Dwane Sports fund 1883Ltd. 1883Ltd loses money, this is a cost to Dwane Sports and by extension The Al-Qadi Family and however they get there money Replace Dwane Sports with Nick Higgs That bit is quite simply to understand I would say. But this just seems like smoke and mirrors to me - no matter how commonplace it is in football circles. The bit I'd like to understand properly is if Dwane Sports accumulate a 30 million pound debt over the next ten years and then decide they want to sell up, where does this put us as a club? I am a total ignoramus when it comes to the pigeon holing of debt into various offshore locations but surely at that point in time they would need someone prepared to purchase a run down ramshackle league one club for thirty million plus if they want their money back - which seems preposterous. Or they'd need to write off that debt and sell the club for a more realistic value - which seems equally unlikely. I just struggle to see an end game to this spiralling debt no matter which box they decide to put it in. I appreciate this is happening all over the football world but I'd love to understand what happens to this debt that apparently doesn't belong to the club when the inevitable change in ownership arrives - irrespective of whether that is in the short, medium or long term. DS are the creditors. So the new owners pay off the creditors (DS) and become the new creditors; or DS writes all or part of it off; or the club gets wound up and the creditor (DS) receives whatever assets are left.
Same as if this holding company structure didn't exist. Holding companies are common in the non-football word too.
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Post by Henbury Gas on Mar 14, 2018 10:10:13 GMT
Dwane Sports own 1883 ltd, 1883lts in turn owns Bristol Rovers Football Club and owns The Memorial Stadium (separate entities). Dwane Sports fund 1883Ltd. 1883Ltd loses money, this is a cost to Dwane Sports and by extension The Al-Qadi Family and however they get there money Replace Dwane Sports with Nick Higgs That bit is quite simply to understand I would say. But this just seems like smoke and mirrors to me - no matter how commonplace it is in football circles. The bit I'd like to understand properly is if Dwane Sports accumulate a 30 million pound debt over the next ten years and then decide they want to sell up, where does this put us as a club? I am a total ignoramus when it comes to the pigeon holing of debt into various offshore locations but surely at that point in time they would need someone prepared to purchase a run down ramshackle league one club for thirty million plus if they want their money back - which seems preposterous. Or they'd need to write off that debt and sell the club for a more realistic value - which seems equally unlikely. I just struggle to see an end game to this spiralling debt no matter which box they decide to put it in. I appreciate this is happening all over the football world but I'd love to understand what happens to this debt that apparently doesn't belong to the club when the inevitable change in ownership arrives - irrespective of whether that is in the short, medium or long term. My Best Guess would be if they put the club up for sale, they would sale the BRFC part of the Dwane Sports for £20m (value of mem) put that money into Dwane Sport and close the company absorbing the £10m Hit
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 14, 2018 10:12:38 GMT
Dwane Sports own 1883 ltd, 1883lts in turn owns Bristol Rovers Football Club and owns The Memorial Stadium (separate entities). Dwane Sports fund 1883Ltd. 1883Ltd loses money, this is a cost to Dwane Sports and by extension The Al-Qadi Family and however they get there money Replace Dwane Sports with Nick Higgs That bit is quite simply to understand I would say. But this just seems like smoke and mirrors to me - no matter how commonplace it is in football circles. The bit I'd like to understand properly is if Dwane Sports accumulate a 30 million pound debt over the next ten years and then decide they want to sell up, where does this put us as a club? I am a total ignoramus when it comes to the pigeon holing of debt into various offshore locations but surely at that point in time they would need someone prepared to purchase a run down ramshackle league one club for thirty million plus if they want their money back - which seems preposterous. Or they'd need to write off that debt and sell the club for a more realistic value - which seems equally unlikely. I just struggle to see an end game to this spiralling debt no matter which box they decide to put it in. I appreciate this is happening all over the football world but I'd love to understand what happens to this debt that apparently doesn't belong to the club when the inevitable change in ownership arrives - irrespective of whether that is in the short, medium or long term. It has always been my opinion that the plan was to build a new stadium using loans with various redemption dates and rates of interest and then use the sale of the Mem to offset the acquisition and interim running costs. That would leave a reletively neutral costing while having a property investment as security bringing in a regular return. With regards to your thoughts above, I don't think that they will allow losses to run up that high and remain where we are. They will either get things sorted out over the next 3 years or so, or cut back in order to restrict expenditure.
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Post by Captain Jayho on Mar 14, 2018 10:14:54 GMT
But this just seems like smoke and mirrors to me - no matter how commonplace it is in football circles. The bit I'd like to understand properly is if Dwane Sports accumulate a 30 million pound debt over the next ten years and then decide they want to sell up, where does this put us as a club? I am a total ignoramus when it comes to the pigeon holing of debt into various offshore locations but surely at that point in time they would need someone prepared to purchase a run down ramshackle league one club for thirty million plus if they want their money back - which seems preposterous. Or they'd need to write off that debt and sell the club for a more realistic value - which seems equally unlikely. I just struggle to see an end game to this spiralling debt no matter which box they decide to put it in. I appreciate this is happening all over the football world but I'd love to understand what happens to this debt that apparently doesn't belong to the club when the inevitable change in ownership arrives - irrespective of whether that is in the short, medium or long term. DS are the creditors. So the new owners pay off the creditors (DS) and become the new creditors; or DS writes all or part of it off; or the club gets wound up and the creditor (DS) receives whatever assets are left.
Same as if this holding company structure didn't exist. Holding companies are common in the non-football word too.
So just to clarify are you essentially agreeing with me? ie they will need the value of any existing debt paid to them by any new owners or they will need to effectively write off some or all of the debt in order to attract a buyer at a more realistic price.
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Post by peterparker on Mar 14, 2018 10:20:41 GMT
Dwane Sports own 1883 ltd, 1883lts in turn owns Bristol Rovers Football Club and owns The Memorial Stadium (separate entities). Dwane Sports fund 1883Ltd. 1883Ltd loses money, this is a cost to Dwane Sports and by extension The Al-Qadi Family and however they get there money Replace Dwane Sports with Nick Higgs That bit is quite simply to understand I would say. Bristol Rovers 1883 ltd owns the Memorial Stadium. It isn’t a separate company and hasn’t been so for approx 15 years. I was trying to say that The Memorial stadium is separate from the football club, both of which are owned by 1883ltd. Not that the Memorial stadium co still exists
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Post by Captain Jayho on Mar 14, 2018 10:21:35 GMT
But this just seems like smoke and mirrors to me - no matter how commonplace it is in football circles. The bit I'd like to understand properly is if Dwane Sports accumulate a 30 million pound debt over the next ten years and then decide they want to sell up, where does this put us as a club? I am a total ignoramus when it comes to the pigeon holing of debt into various offshore locations but surely at that point in time they would need someone prepared to purchase a run down ramshackle league one club for thirty million plus if they want their money back - which seems preposterous. Or they'd need to write off that debt and sell the club for a more realistic value - which seems equally unlikely. I just struggle to see an end game to this spiralling debt no matter which box they decide to put it in. I appreciate this is happening all over the football world but I'd love to understand what happens to this debt that apparently doesn't belong to the club when the inevitable change in ownership arrives - irrespective of whether that is in the short, medium or long term. It has always been my opinion that the plan was to build a new stadium using loans with various redemption dates and rates of interest and then use the sale of the Mem to offset the acquisition and interim running costs. That would leave a reletively neutral costing while having a property investment as security bringing in a regular return. With regards to your thoughts above, I don't think that they will allow losses to run up that high and remain where we are. They will either get things sorted out over the next 3 years or so, or cut back in order to restrict expenditure. This seems a logical plan but with the collapse of the UWE it's very quickly gone from being a plan that was close to delivery to a plan that is about a million miles from delivery. There's now a gaping chasm of time until we move into a new stadium where they are going to need to keep funding a heavily loss-making club on an ongoing basis. As you say they can cut expenditure a bit but the current trajectory of expenditure doesn't appear to back that up (yet). No dispute from me regarding UWE - if it wasn't right it wasn't right - but jeez I'd love some kind of insight into what we do now to prevent this debt from blowing out exponentially in the short to medium term.
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 14, 2018 10:29:10 GMT
It has always been my opinion that the plan was to build a new stadium using loans with various redemption dates and rates of interest and then use the sale of the Mem to offset the acquisition and interim running costs. That would leave a reletively neutral costing while having a property investment as security bringing in a regular return. With regards to your thoughts above, I don't think that they will allow losses to run up that high and remain where we are. They will either get things sorted out over the next 3 years or so, or cut back in order to restrict expenditure. This seems a logical plan but with the collapse of the UWE it's very quickly gone from being a plan that was close to delivery to a plan that is about a million miles from delivery. There's now a gaping chasm of time until we move into a new stadium where they are going to need to keep funding a heavily loss-making club on an ongoing basis. As you say they can cut expenditure a bit but the current trajectory of expenditure doesn't appear to back that up (yet). No dispute from me regarding UWE - if it wasn't right it wasn't right - but jeez I'd love some kind of insight into what we do now to prevent this debt from blowing out exponentially in the short to medium term. Probably a glasshalf full view but unless there is a firesale of players in the summer and we continue to build up the team then any added expense would be a good sign. They will not keep pumping in £ms without a good reason. It's a litmus test, as soon as we see cost cutting, then is the timeto start worrying. Until then, stay vigilant and ask questions, but don't waste energy looking ghosts in the shadows.
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Post by Captain Jayho on Mar 14, 2018 10:37:24 GMT
This seems a logical plan but with the collapse of the UWE it's very quickly gone from being a plan that was close to delivery to a plan that is about a million miles from delivery. There's now a gaping chasm of time until we move into a new stadium where they are going to need to keep funding a heavily loss-making club on an ongoing basis. As you say they can cut expenditure a bit but the current trajectory of expenditure doesn't appear to back that up (yet). No dispute from me regarding UWE - if it wasn't right it wasn't right - but jeez I'd love some kind of insight into what we do now to prevent this debt from blowing out exponentially in the short to medium term. Probably a glasshalf full view but unless there is a firesale of players in the summer and we continue to build up the team then any added expense would be a good sign. They will not keep pumping in £ms without a good reason. It's a litmus test, as soon as we see cost cutting, then is the timeto start worrying. Until then, stay vigilant and ask questions, but don't waste energy looking ghosts in the shadows. Yes, that is fair enough. I'm one of those people who hates to carry debt - I hate my mortgage and can't wait for the day I eventually get rid of it. But I appreciate that there are people to whom it is less of a concern and some who make a living from carrying large amounts of debt to achieve business goals. At the end of the day I can't complain when the Al Qadis are improving the state of the club with the development squad and the investment that has gone in since some of the dark days that went before them. I just worry for the long term viability of the club as I can't see how growing a bigger and bigger debt can possibly end well - irrespective of who or what that debt is attributed to on paper. Living in a world where the break-even attendance is so far above our stadium capacity seems like utter madness to me but again that's probably just my conservative nature!
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Post by Henbury Gas on Mar 14, 2018 10:42:11 GMT
Probably a glasshalf full view but unless there is a firesale of players in the summer and we continue to build up the team then any added expense would be a good sign. They will not keep pumping in £ms without a good reason. It's a litmus test, as soon as we see cost cutting, then is the timeto start worrying. Until then, stay vigilant and ask questions, but don't waste energy looking ghosts in the shadows. Yes, that is fair enough. I'm one of those people who hates to carry debt - I hate my mortgage and can't wait for the day I eventually get rid of it. But I appreciate that there are people to whom it is less of a concern and some who make a living from carrying large amounts of debt to achieve business goals. At the end of the day I can't complain when the Al Qadis are improving the state of the club with the development squad and the investment that has gone in since some of the dark days that went before them. I just worry for the long term viability of the club as I can't see how growing a bigger and bigger debt can possibly end well - irrespective of who or what that debt is attributed to on paper. Living in a world where the break-even attendance is so far above our stadium capacity seems like utter madness to me but again that's probably just my conservative nature! Agree with your comments but the Family are investment bankers and i'm pretty sure they have a plan to get their investment back and develop the club hand in hand. That must include a new stadium and other facilities
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 14, 2018 10:52:00 GMT
Yes, that is fair enough. I'm one of those people who hates to carry debt - I hate my mortgage and can't wait for the day I eventually get rid of it. But I appreciate that there are people to whom it is less of a concern and some who make a living from carrying large amounts of debt to achieve business goals. At the end of the day I can't complain when the Al Qadis are improving the state of the club with the development squad and the investment that has gone in since some of the dark days that went before them. I just worry for the long term viability of the club as I can't see how growing a bigger and bigger debt can possibly end well - irrespective of who or what that debt is attributed to on paper. Living in a world where the break-even attendance is so far above our stadium capacity seems like utter madness to me but again that's probably just my conservative nature! Agree with your comments but the Family are investment bankers and i'm pretty sure they have a plan to get their investment back and develop the club hand in hand. That must include a new stadium and other facilities It's a symbiotic relationship. If Rovers do well then Dwane does well, if Dwane receives interest on their loans/investment it is because Rovers are doing well and 1883 Ltd can afford to make those payments.
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Post by Captain Jayho on Mar 14, 2018 10:57:03 GMT
Yes, that is fair enough. I'm one of those people who hates to carry debt - I hate my mortgage and can't wait for the day I eventually get rid of it. But I appreciate that there are people to whom it is less of a concern and some who make a living from carrying large amounts of debt to achieve business goals. At the end of the day I can't complain when the Al Qadis are improving the state of the club with the development squad and the investment that has gone in since some of the dark days that went before them. I just worry for the long term viability of the club as I can't see how growing a bigger and bigger debt can possibly end well - irrespective of who or what that debt is attributed to on paper. Living in a world where the break-even attendance is so far above our stadium capacity seems like utter madness to me but again that's probably just my conservative nature! Agree with your comments but the Family are investment bankers and i'm pretty sure they have a plan to get their investment back and develop the club hand in hand. That must include a new stadium and other facilities I'd like to think so. But there have just been a few things (including Wael's admission that running a football club was a lot more complex than they originally thought) that have rung alarm bells for me. He really does seem like a great guy who has the club's best interest at heart - but then we also seem to be putting our left foot in and then our left foot out and then doing the hokey cokey when it comes to what we're doing at the colony and even with the basic location of the new stadium. Doesn't inspire me with confidence when mixed messages are coming out of the club a lot of the time in regards the big infrastructure projects. Anyhow, at the end of the day all we can do is watch it unfold.
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