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Post by contradiction on Mar 14, 2018 20:07:24 GMT
Here's the link to the FA rules we play under the Salary Cost Management Protocol (SCMP) of the FFPR in Div 1, suggest you read the rules yourself as you've clearly overlooked para's 2.6 cash injections & 2.7 equity injections there's no real salary cap just a cap on how much a club owners are prepared to spend. Regardless there's no disputing we need a new stadium but we seem as far away from that as we've ever been, the UWE is dead, the Mem regen now sounding unlikely and no obvious development land elsewhere we can buy cheaply even if there was somebody has to fund buying the land then building the stadium. www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/appendix-5---financial-fair-play-regulations/Nope I havn't overlooked that. What you are talking about there is basically giving the club money, which some seem to want to happen. That does NOT make the club sustainable long term. Even Abramovich has stopped doing that. Its why Man City have invested millions in their academy. Why do they do that if you have all the money you could ever want and could buy any player and pay the best wages? Too many people are confused about funding a football club. People on here get arsey and at best confused about the clubs losses because they don't understand what they are talking about , and in the same breath argue that in effect the owners should just give away their money to the club.
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Post by pucklegas on Mar 14, 2018 20:50:28 GMT
I keep saying this.......The Bristol Arena at Filton is going to be paid for by a Malaysian company (they also own Wessex Water). The council will fund the traffic infrastructure to support it. There will be a gurt big car park as the Arena is expected to hold 16,000(?). So, the car park is sorted and paid for. The traffic infrastructure is sorted and paid for, just build a Stadium on the other side of the car park. Without additional costs for car park and traffic infrastructure costs should be vastly reduced! Is it an opportunity? Ain't got a clue who is going to pay for it though :-) We ve got the stadium design just need the dinars! 😂🛩 Filton would be a great location AJIB arena. Wael make it happen.
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Post by poorblue on Mar 14, 2018 21:03:17 GMT
I think you need to understand it more than me, the only cap on the playing budget is how much the owners want to spend each season. If it was my £250K I'd be spending at Horfield rather than in central London, I wonder how many other lower league clubs based outside the capital have offices in London. Nope. Read up on FFP (its actually called something else, 'football league cost protocol' or something). People really need to understand this, so that this whole bollox thread can be put to bed: You can only spend 60% of your income on the playing budget. Management costs (Darryl etc), under 21 players etc are excluded. So its all about income generated. We generate income from 9000 crowds and bugger all else, due to the Mem. So for example lets say 9000 x £20 = £180k Plus say 500 meals x £40 = 20k. So for arguments sake, lets say we generate £200k per match. x 23 = £4.6 m per season x 60 % = £2.7m playing budget. Now lets say another club on gates of 6000. 6000 x £20 = £120k per match. But lets say they also generate 2000 x £40 hospitality =80k per match. Total income 200k per match So both clubs generate the same income and hence have the same salary cap, although we had 9000 crowds and the other club 6000. Crowds are only one part of it. This is very basic, and much more is included in income generation, but its why the club need a new stadium/expanded Mem and its also why they have a new Commercial Director and also a Business Development bloke in London, as the only way to become self sustaining long term is through income generation. The only way to get to that point is to invest (spend) on the infrastructure and set up that will allow it to happen. Which will incur losses short term (which is now). Either that, or just spend what we earn, and nothing more and get relegated and become part time. Once everyone grasps this fundamental point they realise what the owners are doing by 'evolution' Bye bye I understand the sentiment in this post but it is seriously in error factually. My facts are not fully accountable but more realistic. There are 5400 season ticket holders 2017/18 season. Split between pensioners 30% adults 50% youngsters 20% A pensioner season ticket holder in one of the stands pays £8.91p per game. Pensioner season ticket standing on the terrace pays £5.87 per game. The two main stands are sold out with a large proportion appearing to be pensioners. The above statement of 9000 x £20 therefore appears very generous income. Can't confirm other ticket prices as they no longer appear on the website but an offer of 10 game tickets for adults still on offer is for adult tickets at £14 per game. Thus the £180k income per game based on ticket prices appears to be way of the mark. Further in a sold out stand where I sit there are usually at least 6 - 8 empty seats within arks reach. Two of those seats have not had a single bum on them all season. No additional pints and pie money out of them is there?
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Post by contradiction on Mar 14, 2018 21:09:28 GMT
Nope. Read up on FFP (its actually called something else, 'football league cost protocol' or something). People really need to understand this, so that this whole bollox thread can be put to bed: You can only spend 60% of your income on the playing budget. Management costs (Darryl etc), under 21 players etc are excluded. So its all about income generated. We generate income from 9000 crowds and bugger all else, due to the Mem. So for example lets say 9000 x £20 = £180k Plus say 500 meals x £40 = 20k. So for arguments sake, lets say we generate £200k per match. x 23 = £4.6 m per season x 60 % = £2.7m playing budget. Now lets say another club on gates of 6000. 6000 x £20 = £120k per match. But lets say they also generate 2000 x £40 hospitality =80k per match. Total income 200k per match So both clubs generate the same income and hence have the same salary cap, although we had 9000 crowds and the other club 6000. Crowds are only one part of it. This is very basic, and much more is included in income generation, but its why the club need a new stadium/expanded Mem and its also why they have a new Commercial Director and also a Business Development bloke in London, as the only way to become self sustaining long term is through income generation. The only way to get to that point is to invest (spend) on the infrastructure and set up that will allow it to happen. Which will incur losses short term (which is now). Either that, or just spend what we earn, and nothing more and get relegated and become part time. Once everyone grasps this fundamental point they realise what the owners are doing by 'evolution' Bye bye I understand the sentiment in this post but it is seriously in error factually. My facts are not fully accountable but more realistic. There are 5400 season ticket holders 2017/18 season. Split between pensioners 30% adults 50% youngsters 20% A pensioner season ticket holder in one of the stands pays £8.91p per game. Pensioner season ticket standing on the terrace pays £5.87 per game. The two main stands are sold out with a large proportion appearing to be pensioners. The above statement of 9000 x £20 therefore appears very generous income. Can't confirm other ticket prices as they no longer appear on the website but an offer of 10 game tickets for adults still on offer is for adult tickets at £14 per game. Thus the £180k income per game based on ticket prices appears to be way of the mark. Further in a sold out stand where I sit there are usually at least 6 - 8 empty seats within arks reach. Two of those seats have not had a single bum on them all season. No additional pints and pie money out of them is there? My figures were totally made up, used only to show how attendance figures should not be used in isolation - as people cant seem to understand why we are making a loss with crowds of 9000.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2018 21:13:20 GMT
Nope. Read up on FFP (its actually called something else, 'football league cost protocol' or something). People really need to understand this, so that this whole bollox thread can be put to bed: You can only spend 60% of your income on the playing budget. Management costs (Darryl etc), under 21 players etc are excluded. So its all about income generated. We generate income from 9000 crowds and bugger all else, due to the Mem. So for example lets say 9000 x £20 = £180k Plus say 500 meals x £40 = 20k. So for arguments sake, lets say we generate £200k per match. x 23 = £4.6 m per season x 60 % = £2.7m playing budget. Now lets say another club on gates of 6000. 6000 x £20 = £120k per match. But lets say they also generate 2000 x £40 hospitality =80k per match. Total income 200k per match So both clubs generate the same income and hence have the same salary cap, although we had 9000 crowds and the other club 6000. Crowds are only one part of it. This is very basic, and much more is included in income generation, but its why the club need a new stadium/expanded Mem and its also why they have a new Commercial Director and also a Business Development bloke in London, as the only way to become self sustaining long term is through income generation. The only way to get to that point is to invest (spend) on the infrastructure and set up that will allow it to happen. Which will incur losses short term (which is now). Either that, or just spend what we earn, and nothing more and get relegated and become part time. Once everyone grasps this fundamental point they realise what the owners are doing by 'evolution' Bye bye I understand the sentiment in this post but it is seriously in error factually. My facts are not fully accountable but more realistic. There are 5400 season ticket holders 2017/18 season. Split between pensioners 30% adults 50% youngsters 20% A pensioner season ticket holder in one of the stands pays £8.91p per game. Pensioner season ticket standing on the terrace pays £5.87 per game. The two main stands are sold out with a large proportion appearing to be pensioners. The above statement of 9000 x £20 therefore appears very generous income. Can't confirm other ticket prices as they no longer appear on the website but an offer of 10 game tickets for adults still on offer is for adult tickets at £14 per game. Thus the £180k income per game based on ticket prices appears to be way of the mark. Further in a sold out stand where I sit there are usually at least 6 - 8 empty seats within arks reach. Two of those seats have not had a single bum on them all season. No additional pints and pie money out of them is there? I once has a season ticket to sit in the stand, and I always sat next to this old couple, and we chatted as you do. They told me that together they hadn't missed a home game in over 40 years. One game, the old chap came on his own. I asked him about his wife, and with a tear in his eye he told me that she had recently passed away. Obviously I offered my condolences etc, and I asked if a member of his family could have accompanied him, you know, a Son, Grandson or even a friend. He said "No, they're all at the funeral!".
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Post by aghast on Mar 14, 2018 21:25:24 GMT
I understand the sentiment in this post but it is seriously in error factually. My facts are not fully accountable but more realistic. There are 5400 season ticket holders 2017/18 season. Split between pensioners 30% adults 50% youngsters 20% A pensioner season ticket holder in one of the stands pays £8.91p per game. Pensioner season ticket standing on the terrace pays £5.87 per game. The two main stands are sold out with a large proportion appearing to be pensioners. The above statement of 9000 x £20 therefore appears very generous income. Can't confirm other ticket prices as they no longer appear on the website but an offer of 10 game tickets for adults still on offer is for adult tickets at £14 per game. Thus the £180k income per game based on ticket prices appears to be way of the mark. Further in a sold out stand where I sit there are usually at least 6 - 8 empty seats within arks reach. Two of those seats have not had a single bum on them all season. No additional pints and pie money out of them is there? My figures were totally made up, used only to show how attendance figures should not be used in isolation - as people cant seem to understand why we are making a loss with crowds of 9000. Making up a solution to solve a mystery, without knowing all the facts. The religions of the world have been doing that for a very long time, and that hasn't helped us much. My own opinion is that either the costs of building a proper club by recruiting staff at all levels is inevitably expensive, and will show losses before it shows a return. Or the owners have totally underestimated the challenge they faced, and we are now seeing that. I'm still sitting on the fence. I hope it's been paid for.
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Post by Topper Gas on Mar 14, 2018 21:49:15 GMT
Here's the link to the FA rules we play under the Salary Cost Management Protocol (SCMP) of the FFPR in Div 1, suggest you read the rules yourself as you've clearly overlooked para's 2.6 cash injections & 2.7 equity injections there's no real salary cap just a cap on how much a club owners are prepared to spend. Regardless there's no disputing we need a new stadium but we seem as far away from that as we've ever been, the UWE is dead, the Mem regen now sounding unlikely and no obvious development land elsewhere we can buy cheaply even if there was somebody has to fund buying the land then building the stadium. www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/appendix-5---financial-fair-play-regulations/Nope I havn't overlooked that. What you are talking about there is basically giving the club money, which some seem to want to happen. That does NOT make the club sustainable long term. Even Abramovich has stopped doing that. Its why Man City have invested millions in their academy. Why do they do that if you have all the money you could ever want and could buy any player and pay the best wages? Too many people are confused about funding a football club. People on here get arsey and at best confused about the clubs losses because they don't understand what they are talking about , and in the same breath argue that in effect the owners should just give away their money to the club. The only one getting "arsey" is you after I questioned what the logic was in Wael spending £250K on an office for two people in London, how is that sustainable in the long term if we're already losing around £2m a year just keeping afloat in Div 1? I doubt there's many regular posters on here confused about funding a football club, the only confusion is the ALQ's business model for Rovers, which seems to be to build up massive debts which the club will never be able to repay.
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Post by contradiction on Mar 14, 2018 23:11:25 GMT
Nope I havn't overlooked that. What you are talking about there is basically giving the club money, which some seem to want to happen. That does NOT make the club sustainable long term. Even Abramovich has stopped doing that. Its why Man City have invested millions in their academy. Why do they do that if you have all the money you could ever want and could buy any player and pay the best wages? Too many people are confused about funding a football club. People on here get arsey and at best confused about the clubs losses because they don't understand what they are talking about , and in the same breath argue that in effect the owners should just give away their money to the club. The only one getting "arsey" is you after I questioned what the logic was in Wael spending £250K on an office for two people in London, how is that sustainable in the long term if we're already losing around £2m a year just keeping afloat in Div 1? I doubt there's many regular posters on here confused about funding a football club, the only confusion is the ALQ's business model for Rovers, which seems to be to build up massive debts which the club will never be able to repay. No confusion? Re read this bloody thread. Then re read your earlier post about having a bottom 8 budget whilst having a top 6 attendance. Plenty of confusion I would suggest.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 14, 2018 23:15:40 GMT
I keep saying this.......The Bristol Arena at Filton is going to be paid for by a Malaysian company (they also own Wessex Water). The council will fund the traffic infrastructure to support it. There will be a gurt big car park as the Arena is expected to hold 16,000(?). So, the car park is sorted and paid for. The traffic infrastructure is sorted and paid for, just build a Stadium on the other side of the car park. Without additional costs for car park and traffic infrastructure costs should be vastly reduced! Is it an opportunity? Ain't got a clue who is going to pay for it though :-) We ve got the stadium design just need the dinars! 😂🛩 Filton would be a great location AJIB arena. Wael make it happen. I've suggested the Filton/Bristol Arena connection a couple of times plus the Lyde Green M4 link road. Either would suit me, although the Clifton Rugby Club idea would be great as my in-laws live just down the road 😊
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Mar 14, 2018 23:23:15 GMT
I posted this in General Sport Chat back in February. I had us 12th out of 16 clubs I could find details for.
Team. Turnover.
Blackburn. £22m. Wigan. £15.7m Rotherham. £13.3m. Charlton. £12m. Portsmouth. £8m. Shrewsbury. £6.8m. Walsall. £6.6m. MK Dons. £6.6m. Gillingham. £5.7m. Southend. £5.5m. Oxford. £5.1m. Rovers. £4.75m. Blackpool. £4.4m. Bury. £4.2m. Wimbledon. £4.1m. Scunthorpe. £3.7m.
Bradford, Plymouth, Peterborogh, Doncaster, Fleetwood, Oldham, Northampton and Rochdale had abbreviated accounts so the turnover was not readily available. Please feel free to fill in the gaps.
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Post by bluebeard on Mar 15, 2018 0:00:40 GMT
My figures were totally made up, used only to show how attendance figures should not be used in isolation - as people cant seem to understand why we are making a loss with crowds of 9000. Making up a solution to solve a mystery, without knowing all the facts. The religions of the world have been doing that for a very long time, and that hasn't helped us much. My own opinion is that either the costs of building a proper club by recruiting staff at all levels is inevitably expensive, and will show losses before it shows a return. Or the owners have totally underestimated the challenge they faced, and we are now seeing that. I'm still sitting on the fence. I hope it's been paid for. To be fair, the fact that his figures were overstated only proves the point he was trying to make. But I agree with the second half of your post. And a genuine question to anyone who knows, has it actually been confirmed that the London office costs are being paid for directly by the football club?
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Post by Severncider on Mar 15, 2018 1:05:57 GMT
Making up a solution to solve a mystery, without knowing all the facts. The religions of the world have been doing that for a very long time, and that hasn't helped us much. My own opinion is that either the costs of building a proper club by recruiting staff at all levels is inevitably expensive, and will show losses before it shows a return. Or the owners have totally underestimated the challenge they faced, and we are now seeing that. I'm still sitting on the fence. I hope it's been paid for. To be fair, the fact that his figures were overstated only proves the point he was trying to make. But I agree with the second half of your post. And a genuine question to anyone who knows, has it actually been confirmed that the London office costs are being paid for directly by the football club? Steve Hamer said at the AGM that Dwayne Sports insisted on having an office in London and that the cost is borne by BRFC.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Mar 15, 2018 6:03:56 GMT
When DS took over the club we were on the verge of administration.
I'm not sure exactly but I think our debts (including money owed to directors) was up around the 7-8 Million mark with the land valued at 10??
We were apparently losing 2M a year.
So basically we had 2 years left before our debts out stripped our assets.
So worse case scenario, assuming those evil AQs are here to asset strip as some of you nutters seem to think we are actually no worse off than we would have been staying as we were.
If you listen to some the family are actualy increasing our debts.
They are really not doing a very good job at asset stripping are they?
My limited experience of being in a company that's being deliberately run down is the complete opposite of what the AQs are doing.
You don't spend a penny, you run on skeleton staff, you don't fix stuff and you certainly don't increase your debts in any way.
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Post by Gassy on Mar 15, 2018 7:19:09 GMT
Just to add to this - I work in the pharmaceutical industry creating and organizing conferences. When we book a hotel out to host the conference (Monday evening for set up, Tuesday 1 large room, Wednesday the large room splits into 2 rooms) it comes with lunches too. Generally speaking we pay about €40,000 for those 2 days..
These hotels like the Hilton etc are holding these multiple times a week in different rooms. Imagine we could just hold one of those a month, would would be roughly £2m for the club per year.
We really need a new stadium to move forward
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Post by Captain Jayho on Mar 15, 2018 7:41:27 GMT
When DS took over the club we were on the verge of administration. I'm not sure exactly but I think our debts (including money owed to directors) was up around the 7-8 Million mark with the land valued at 10?? We were apparently losing 2M a year. So basically we had 2 years left before our debts out stripped our assets. So worse case scenario, assuming those evil AQs are here to asset strip as some of you nutters seem to think we are actually no worse off than we would have been staying as we were. If you listen to some the family are actualy increasing our debts. They are really not doing a very good job at asset stripping are they? My limited experience of being in a company that's being deliberately run down is the complete opposite of what the AQs are doing. You don't spend a penny, you run on skeleton staff, you don't fix stuff and you certainly don't increase your debts in any way. All fair points Hugo. As you say it is hard to see them as asset strippers. The Al Qadis don't seem like asset strippers to me, more like water treaders at the moment. Why they would want to own this football club is completely beyond me. Normally you get asset strippers (spend nothing), ego boosters (spend loads to make yourself look good) or wealthy local businessmen. I just really struggle to see where they fit in, I think they just invented a whole new genre of owner...
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Mar 15, 2018 7:46:35 GMT
When DS took over the club we were on the verge of administration. I'm not sure exactly but I think our debts (including money owed to directors) was up around the 7-8 Million mark with the land valued at 10?? We were apparently losing 2M a year. So basically we had 2 years left before our debts out stripped our assets. So worse case scenario, assuming those evil AQs are here to asset strip as some of you nutters seem to think we are actually no worse off than we would have been staying as we were. If you listen to some the family are actualy increasing our debts. They are really not doing a very good job at asset stripping are they? My limited experience of being in a company that's being deliberately run down is the complete opposite of what the AQs are doing. You don't spend a penny, you run on skeleton staff, you don't fix stuff and you certainly don't increase your debts in any way. All fair points Hugo. As you say it is hard to see them as asset strippers. The Al Qadis don't seem like asset strippers to me, more like water treaders at the moment. Why they would want to own this football club is completely beyond me. Normally you get asset strippers (spend nothing), ego boosters (spend loads to make yourself look good) or wealthy local businessmen. I just really struggle to see where they fit in, I think they just invented a whole new genre of owner... Which is why I'm prepared to wait and see what they do. I'm like you, I think we are going to see something very different from other owners. I like it. We are a very different club from many others. Maybe I lack ambition, but I would love to see us become a proper community club. Be everything a lot of other clubs are not. Championship football is enough for me. Honestly, I have no desire to be in the Premiershit. It's a cesspit.
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Post by tommym9 on Mar 15, 2018 8:11:23 GMT
All fair points Hugo. As you say it is hard to see them as asset strippers. The Al Qadis don't seem like asset strippers to me, more like water treaders at the moment. Why they would want to own this football club is completely beyond me. Normally you get asset strippers (spend nothing), ego boosters (spend loads to make yourself look good) or wealthy local businessmen. I just really struggle to see where they fit in, I think they just invented a whole new genre of owner... Which is why I'm prepared to wait and see what they do. I'm like you, I think we are going to see something very different from other owners. I like it. We are a very different club from many others. Maybe I lack ambition, but I would love to see us become a proper community club. Be everything a lot of other clubs are not. Championship football is enough for me. Honestly, I have no desire to be in the Premiershit. It's a cesspit. Was talking to a mate about this and we're in the same boat. Why go all out for Prem football so we can pay huge ticket prices to watch millionaires not give a sh** for 90 minutes? Just look at the state West Ham are in just now.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Mar 15, 2018 8:14:55 GMT
I posted this in General Sport Chat back in February. I had us 12th out of 16 clubs I could find details for. Team. Turnover. Blackburn. £22m. Wigan. £15.7m Rotherham. £13.3m. Charlton. £12m. Portsmouth. £8m. Shrewsbury. £6.8m. Walsall. £6.6m. MK Dons. £6.6m. Gillingham. £5.7m. Southend. £5.5m. Oxford. £5.1m. Rovers. £4.75m. Blackpool. £4.4m. Bury. £4.2m. Wimbledon. £4.1m. Scunthorpe. £3.7m. Bradford, Plymouth, Peterborogh, Doncaster, Fleetwood, Oldham, Northampton and Rochdale had abbreviated accounts so the turnover was not readily available. Please feel free to fill in the gaps. Well this is fairly damning. Puts ‘big club’ into perspective and shoes we really need that new stadium.
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Post by singupgas on Mar 15, 2018 8:17:59 GMT
Just to add to this - I work in the pharmaceutical industry creating and organizing conferences. When we book a hotel out to host the conference (Monday evening for set up, Tuesday 1 large room, Wednesday the large room splits into 2 rooms) it comes with lunches too. Generally speaking we pay about €40,000 for those 2 days.. These hotels like the Hilton etc are holding these multiple times a week in different rooms. Imagine we could just hold one of those a month, would would be roughly £2m for the club per year. We really need a new stadium to move forwardThink this is something that we can all agree on, i am just hoping that the spec is similar to the UWEand not a "stripped back" version. If we want to compete in this Bristol alone we need to build something that is state of the art, exciting and get people looking at us. Its not just about keep the fans we have now happy. If it turns out Wael and Co have a location in mind, possibly near the new arena as people are suggesting, then fair play to them.
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Post by contradiction on Mar 15, 2018 8:34:19 GMT
I posted this in General Sport Chat back in February. I had us 12th out of 16 clubs I could find details for. Team. Turnover. Blackburn. £22m. Wigan. £15.7m Rotherham. £13.3m. Charlton. £12m. Portsmouth. £8m. Shrewsbury. £6.8m. Walsall. £6.6m. MK Dons. £6.6m. Gillingham. £5.7m. Southend. £5.5m. Oxford. £5.1m. Rovers. £4.75m. Blackpool. £4.4m. Bury. £4.2m. Wimbledon. £4.1m. Scunthorpe. £3.7m. Bradford, Plymouth, Peterborogh, Doncaster, Fleetwood, Oldham, Northampton and Rochdale had abbreviated accounts so the turnover was not readily available. Please feel free to fill in the gaps. This tells you everything. Unfortunately some people will ignore however and say "but we get 9000 gates..."
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