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Post by I Voted For Kodos on Aug 25, 2018 18:14:06 GMT
Let's forget about DC, Wael and anything off the pitch for a bit. If we're to improve this season, its the play on the pitch that will have to improve. This is how I see some of the tactical problems we have at the minute. I'd be interested to see how others see it.
This has been mentioned for a while, but at the back we simply don't close down the ball quick enough in wide positions and are allowing the opposition time and space to put a ball in.
We seem to not win the first ball in the air enough. Most of the time it's not that we outright lose it but that we outright win it either. This often puts us on the back foot especially when we don't know which way the second ball is going to bounce. Maybe part of this is down to the speed of anticipation. Broadbent was better at winning the first ball today (although his passing was atrocious).
When we have the ball, the central midfield pair sit in order to dictate the play. They rarely slip out of those positions to advance the play other than side-to-side. Ollie burst forward once today and got a good shot away. I guess the upshot of this is that we haven't been sliced through the middle by any teams yet this season.
Bennett, Sercombe and Rodman all like to come inside. It's initially nifty play but they run into traffic before they can get any end product. I can't think of many crosses from our midfielders this season- they seem to come from our overlapping full-backs. Matthews looks like he has the skills to deliver that final pass after he has cut inside and the one cross from Sercombe today led to our best chance.
With our midfielders cutting inside, we rarely get a 2-on-1 against their full-back. This means that our crosses (from our defenders) are coming in from deep and not from the byline. The opposition defence can see it all the way and read it easier and our forwards need more power to direct the cross. Overlapping full-backs are a feature of DC teams but they rely on the winger to work the space, think the Monkhouse-Brown partnership illustrated this best.
Our forwards spend a lot of time trying to win high balls which isn't effective. Payne is decent in the air, but can't direct where the flick-on will go. Nichols, Reilly and Jakubiak have to resort to fouling the CB to get anything.
When the forwards have it on the floor we seem to have some control but not a plan for where a goal is going to come from. The midfield two aren't making runs in behind and the wingers seem to end up on top of the strikers. So it goes wide to a defender or we work a yard of space and take an outside shot.
So any solutions? I think if we're going to play without proper wingers we might as well play a diamond in midfield. Put Matthews at the top of it as he seems to have the vision to pick a pass. Then you could have the two strikers starting wide and then making runs off the fullback in behind the centre backs. Or maybe a simple 4-3-3 would be less rigid than the 4-4-2 played currently.
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Post by Icegas on Aug 25, 2018 18:45:45 GMT
No offence to your good self as its a well written post, but this why football has lost what it once was. Football is simple.11 vs 11. Why have today's footballing coaching gone away from Kevin Keegan's or fergies - we are better than you so will score 4 if your score 3?
All this diamond talking and 3-3-1-2-1 formations is madness. We currently have a squad that are decent at this level.Play in there right positions and then playing attacking football to try to win the game.
4-4-2 then if your losing with ten mins left go 3-4-3 like in the old days. To much deep thinking from people on sky tv has wrecked today's game.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2018 23:20:56 GMT
Smith
Kelly Broadbent Lockyer Clarke
Lines Clarke Russe
Bennett Payne Rodman
Looks sh** on paper but would work better than today’s rubbish guaranteed! Upson would have to play until lines suspension ends tho as we don’t have anyone else! Hope sercombes back soon as would clearly have him for Russe! Missing since too! My middle three would probably be lines, Sinclair and sercombe and they are all missing!!!
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Post by gashead1981 on Aug 26, 2018 5:17:24 GMT
Let's forget about DC, Wael and anything off the pitch for a bit. If we're to improve this season, its the play on the pitch that will have to improve. This is how I see some of the tactical problems we have at the minute. I'd be interested to see how others see it. This has been mentioned for a while, but at the back we simply don't close down the ball quick enough in wide positions and are allowing the opposition time and space to put a ball in. We seem to not win the first ball in the air enough. Most of the time it's not that we outright lose it but that we outright win it either. This often puts us on the back foot especially when we don't know which way the second ball is going to bounce. Maybe part of this is down to the speed of anticipation. Broadbent was better at winning the first ball today (although his passing was atrocious). When we have the ball, the central midfield pair sit in order to dictate the play. They rarely slip out of those positions to advance the play other than side-to-side. Ollie burst forward once today and got a good shot away. I guess the upshot of this is that we haven't been sliced through the middle by any teams yet this season. Bennett, Sercombe and Rodman all like to come inside. It's initially nifty play but they run into traffic before they can get any end product. I can't think of many crosses from our midfielders this season- they seem to come from our overlapping full-backs. Matthews looks like he has the skills to deliver that final pass after he has cut inside and the one cross from Sercombe today led to our best chance. With our midfielders cutting inside, we rarely get a 2-on-1 against their full-back. This means that our crosses (from our defenders) are coming in from deep and not from the byline. The opposition defence can see it all the way and read it easier and our forwards need more power to direct the cross. Overlapping full-backs are a feature of DC teams but they rely on the winger to work the space, think the Monkhouse-Brown partnership illustrated this best. Our forwards spend a lot of time trying to win high balls which isn't effective. Payne is decent in the air, but can't direct where the flick-on will go. Nichols, Reilly and Jakubiak have to resort to fouling the CB to get anything. When the forwards have it on the floor we seem to have some control but not a plan for where a goal is going to come from. The midfield two aren't making runs in behind and the wingers seem to end up on top of the strikers. So it goes wide to a defender or we work a yard of space and take an outside shot. So any solutions? I think if we're going to play without proper wingers we might as well play a diamond in midfield. Put Matthews at the top of it as he seems to have the vision to pick a pass. Then you could have the two strikers starting wide and then making runs off the fullback in behind the centre backs. Or maybe a simple 4-3-3 would be less rigid than the 4-4-2 played currently. You highlight the problem in the first paragraphs. We play our best creative central midfielder in sercs on the wing. He’s a classic number 7 midfielder, the one making driving runs, supporting the front 2. As a result we don’t create much from the middle and rely on the wingers to bring in most of the play. Ollie Clarke and Upson are too similar a player to play together. We didn’t chase down the ball yesterday because we focused most of our play to the right side because Craig doesn’t have any legs. That then isolated Bennett as we were relying on that cross field pass. We are putting square pegs in round holes and it never ever works. Craig at LB for example is an equally as mad desicion as when McGhoo played Tom Parkes on the wing. If a CB can’t turn and run when he plays CB, where on earth do you think his pace will come from at FB? It’s utter madness. Play 3 at the back with Mensah and Bennett at the very least.
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Post by stigofthegas on Aug 26, 2018 5:37:35 GMT
I thought we played ok in the first half yesterday but were awful in the second half. There was a clear change in tactics after the break as we went to a diamond in the second half and lost our width, or more accurately space to play in. We allowed them to defend narrow and keep tight. We completely failed to stretch them and play in the spaces - there weren’t any.
What disappointed me was that DC didn’t change again. Just Like for like swaps. He said in pre-season that we were going to play with less formations - keep it simpler. We appear to have lost the ability to make changes that impact the game.
I think the lack of posts on this thread shows that most people don’t want to talk technical, mostly it’s usually just an emotional response to the result which is fair enough I suppose. Technically I thought we were much better against Portsmouth than we were against Wycombe. The results went the other way though - it happens.
Good try Kudos. But I think we need to get the emotions out he way first.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 26, 2018 6:26:53 GMT
We have an erratic keeper, infront of which we have one CB who appears to play better alongside an experienced older head.
We have another CB who is too short, too slow and the turning circle of a tanker.
Our wide defenders. One is a stand in and both have to spend half their game trying to give us width going forward.
In central midfield we have 2 defensive midfielders, there presumably to take pressure off our shaky defence. In reality it just puts us on the back foot and limits our attacking threat.
Out wide we waste arguebly our best players who are not getting support from the central pairing.
Up front we have a very willing looking big man and a striker that can't score, both of whom are frequently isolated and relying on high balls hoofed in to them from the back.
For me, we need either need a change in formation to suit our better players or change the players in the formation we are using.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 7:13:59 GMT
I think the reason that there's not many responses to this is that whilst we all have an idea as to who should play where etc, deep down we know that our technical knowledge is nowhere near that of the professionals. Let's face it, there probably isn't one of us who has the tactical acumen of a Mark McGhee, never mind a Darrell Clarke.
However, this is just a forum for us to express our views, whether right or wrong. So, for what it's worth...
In goal we have a reasonable shot stopper. Goalkeeping though is about more than that. It's about organising the defensive side of the game too, having a presence etc. This is what Lumley gave us recently (particularly impressive given his youth). He didn't have to make lots of saves because we were better as a defensive unit then - I think he was a big part of that.
It's easy to blame the centre half when a goal comes from a cross. I don't agree that Craig's legs have gone at all and in fact I see him as very important to the organisation of the defensive aspect of the game. But he is a centre half, not a left back. One that wins the ball in the air far more often than the taller Broadbent actually. I see our defensive problems as being out wide rather than in the middle.
Playing Craig at left back hasn't helped us as it's taken him away from his best position, although to be fair to DC he's been left with little option with Kelly a complete unknown at this level and James Clarke often required elsewhere or perhaps more natural elsewhere anyway. Neither Craig nor Clarke are naturally attacking full backs either, and this has impacted us going forward. We desperately need a LB on loan and whilst I support DC 100%, I do feel this should have been addressed pre-season as we knew that THD was going to take time to get fit. At right back too, we miss the more defensively sound Partington (who adapted his game well enough to bomb forward too at times last season).
Whoever plays though, both full backs are suffering from a lack of support from.the players in front of them. Rodman was at fault for the goal yesterday by failing to delay or stop the cross and neither Bennett nor Sercombe have any defensive qualities. This is putting the full back under pressure to stop the cross coming in. If enough crosses come in, it's inevitable that a striker will get on the end of one or two in the end.
That brings me to Sercombe. Is he out of form or out of position. For me, both. The thing with him is that if he's not scoring goals he offers next to nothing. The fact that he can score goals though makes him a crucial player (particularly in a team struggling for goals from strikers) so he must be played centrally. This restricts how we play though, as Lines is also essential as the only creative central midfielder able to take the ball defenders and start attacks. Lines and Sercombe isn't a great combination as neither is the best defensively, so 4-4-2 is out. Not playing 4-4-2 impacts on the width, which negates the likes of Bennett to a point. It's a difficult problem that has been the case since Sercs arrived. Personally, I'd go with a 3 man midfield with Lines, Sercombe and one of Clarke, Sinclair or Upson and either go 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.
Up front we have the makings of a partnership in Payne and Nichols, but they both have to start scoring goals. And soon.
For all the gloom, there are positives in that we have crucial players returning from injury, we have a good solid League 1 squad and a manager who has shown he has the ability to extract the best out of it. UTG
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Post by Blackbeard on Aug 26, 2018 7:25:40 GMT
Bring back Byron Moore
That's it
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 7:33:55 GMT
We have an erratic keeper, infront of which we have one CB who appears to play better alongside an experienced older head. We have another CB who is too short, too slow and the turning circle of a tanker. Our wide defenders. One is a stand in and both have to spend half their game trying to give us width going forward. In central midfield we have 2 defensive midfielders, there presumably to take pressure off our shaky defence. In reality it just puts us on the back foot and limits our attacking threat. Out wide we waste arguebly our best players who are not getting support from the central pairing. Up front we have a very willing looking big man and a striker that can't score, both of whom are frequently isolated and relying on high balls hoofed in to them from the back. For me, we need either need a change in formation to suit our better players or change the players in the formation we are using. So you’re saying the manager ain’t doing his job?
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 26, 2018 7:37:16 GMT
We have an erratic keeper, infront of which we have one CB who appears to play better alongside an experienced older head. We have another CB who is too short, too slow and the turning circle of a tanker. Our wide defenders. One is a stand in and both have to spend half their game trying to give us width going forward. In central midfield we have 2 defensive midfielders, there presumably to take pressure off our shaky defence. In reality it just puts us on the back foot and limits our attacking threat. Out wide we waste arguebly our best players who are not getting support from the central pairing. Up front we have a very willing looking big man and a striker that can't score, both of whom are frequently isolated and relying on high balls hoofed in to them from the back. For me, we need either need a change in formation to suit our better players or change the players in the formation we are using. So you’re saying the manager ain’t doing his job? No I'm not. DC is being forced to replace and build his squad with inadequate players and then has to try to find a position and formation that best suits what materials he has.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 7:51:38 GMT
So you’re saying the manager ain’t doing his job? No I'm not. DC is being forced to replace and build his squad with inadequate players and then has to try to find a position and formation that best suits what materials he has. I think you are,he brought the players in plays them out of position and selects the formation they play,you don’t like Craig,Nichols etc who’s forcing him to sign inadequate players? Who’s forcing him to play players out of position? DCs very very crafty on his interviews which are all pretty much the same when we lose wouldn’t you say?
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 26, 2018 7:57:26 GMT
No I'm not. DC is being forced to replace and build his squad with inadequate players and then has to try to find a position and formation that best suits what materials he has. I think you are,he brought the players in plays them out of position and selects the formation they play,you don’t like Craig,Nichols etc who’s forcing him to sign inadequate players? Who’s forcing him to play players out of position? DCs very very crafty on his interviews which are all pretty much the same when we lose wouldn’t you say? He is being forced to sign inadequate players because of lack of budget. Yes, he has and is making mistakes. I'm not saying he isn't, but the route cause is above DC.
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Post by nsgas on Aug 26, 2018 7:59:38 GMT
So you’re saying the manager ain’t doing his job? No I'm not. DC is being forced to replace and build his squad with inadequate players and then has to try to find a position and formation that best suits what materials he has. No-one is forcing him to sign inadequate players. Geoff Twentyman dismissed the suggestion that he had a bottom-six budget yesterday. If the players he signs aren't good enough he has to take responsibility. He's been given transfer money to spend and often bought from other League 1 Clubs. Sercombe, Payne and Nichols surely didn't come here for a pay cut.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 8:02:00 GMT
A very good thread started by IVFK. Hugo sums it up perfectly in his fourth paragraph. Without a doubt we need Lines and Sercombe in our starting line up when available. They are our only midfield players who can carry the ball forward and playing the likes of Ollie Clarke and Upson together is just trying to cover up the failings of our limited ability back four. Unfortunately both of them with their sideways and mostly backward passes cause more problems than they avert. When we have a keeper who punches when it would appear easier to catch and kicking that is so erratic. A full back Leadbitter who without doubt has genuine pace but simply being one footed ,always goes outside of his man, is forced wider by the opposition and his crosses on the whole are wayward to say the least. Our midfield set up puts far to much pressure on Bennett and Rodman who should be getting down the flanks and not spend most of their time in a narrow midfield area trying to beat umpteen players on a sixpence. Our first two up top yesterday were totally isolated although making good movement as we're Reilly and Jakubiak later in the game and this is made worse by high balls played up to them when the opposition has a clear height advantage. Simple answer in my opinion is to play players in their best positions and use the whole width of our new lounge carpet rather than a third of it!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 8:10:17 GMT
unIess you know DCs budget how do you know? Twentyman said yesterday he had a budget better than a bottom six,does DC have what it takes to manage a team in league one with the budget he’s got whereas the Rochdale manager KH knows what’s required in league one,people say give DC a better budget and he would do better but who knows that’s not a sure thing. Do you think he waisted money on Nichols?
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Post by faggotygas on Aug 26, 2018 8:20:22 GMT
No offence to your good self as its a well written post, but this why football has lost what it once was. Football is simple.11 vs 11. Why have today's footballing coaching gone away from Kevin Keegan's or fergies - we are better than you so will score 4 if your score 3? All this diamond talking and 3-3-1-2-1 formations is madness. We currently have a squad that are decent at this level.Play in there right positions and then playing attacking football to try to win the game. 4-4-2 then if your losing with ten mins left go 3-4-3 like in the old days. To much deep thinking from people on sky tv has wrecked today's game. How has it wrecked it?
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Post by knowall on Aug 26, 2018 9:07:19 GMT
A very good thread started by IVFK. Hugo sums it up perfectly in his fourth paragraph. Without a doubt we need Lines and Sercombe in our starting line up when available. They are our only midfield players who can carry the ball forward and playing the likes of Ollie Clarke and Upson together is just trying to cover up the failings of our limited ability back four. Unfortunately both of them with their sideways and mostly backward passes cause more problems than they avert. When we have a keeper who punches when it would appear easier to catch and kicking that is so erratic. A full back Leadbitter who without doubt has genuine pace but simply being one footed , always goes outside of his man, is forced wider by the opposition and his crosses on the whole are wayward to say the least. Our midfield set up puts far to much pressure on Bennett and Rodman who should be getting down the flanks and not spend most of their time in a narrow midfield area trying to beat umpteen players on a sixpence. Our first two up top yesterday were totally isolated although making good movement as we're Reilly and Jakubiak later in the game and this is made worse by high balls played up to them when the opposition has a clear height advantage. Simple answer in my opinion is to play players in their best positions and use the whole width of our new lounge carpet rather than a third of it! An excellent post in my view. i have highlighted the points which I hope DC if he reads will note because they all need addressing. The last point being the most urgent.
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Post by simon1883 on Aug 26, 2018 9:19:43 GMT
I think you are,he brought the players in plays them out of position and selects the formation they play,you don’t like Craig,Nichols etc who’s forcing him to sign inadequate players? Who’s forcing him to play players out of position? DCs very very crafty on his interviews which are all pretty much the same when we lose wouldn’t you say? He is being forced to sign inadequate players because of lack of budget. Yes, he has and is making mistakes. I'm not saying he isn't, but the route cause is above DC. There is only so long DC and his team can go on and polish this turd....
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 26, 2018 9:22:50 GMT
He is being forced to sign inadequate players because of lack of budget. Yes, he has and is making mistakes. I'm not saying he isn't, but the route cause is above DC. There is only so long DC and his team can go on and polish this turd.... I guess the question for some is could anyone do better with what we have? I don't think so, but I do understand why the question is being asked.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2018 9:43:00 GMT
There is only so long DC and his team can go on and polish this turd.... I guess the question for some is could anyone do better with what we have? I don't think so, but I do understand why the question is being asked. You think Hurst couldn't after his performance last season? He may not be able to do much with the current squad because it is so imbalanced but I bet he could have spent the budget better in tje first place.
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