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Post by warehamgas on Jul 25, 2022 10:19:13 GMT
G1981 owns a garage of some kind, he's hardly a high flying businessman who knows the ins and outs of property development/the construction industry. However you do have to fear he's heard from his contacts that the FM has stalled/isn't now going ahead, hence, the total silence on that front? I've always sensed Wael's nowhere near as wealthy as some fans think he is, and whilst he can write off £2m/£3m a season getting the money to finance a new stadium is beyond him, particularly now that construction costs have gone through the roof. If the FM is dead and no other sites are being seriously considered, I'm not sure where this leaves us as a club. Remember the "Evolution not revolution" mantra that was initially communicated by Wael. That was a very clever piece of communication and the man has ben 100% true to his word. Everything has to be judged against that mantra.
Bristol Rovers are evolving nicely into a football club that can compete (at what level it remains to be seen).
We have seen improvements across the football club, both on and off the pitch. The stadium issue will be dealt with at the correct time, I am sure of that.
I can imagine continual minor tweaks / improvements to The Mem until the time comes when an annoucement is made. A that point we can begin to judge.
For me (ignoring the stadium question which I know is critical to the long term future), the only realistic target the football club can have over the next 5 years is to have reached the Championship, ideally becoming established or at least a regular yo-yo club.
Obviously a new / updated stadium AND the Championship would be the ideal.
I am not defending the club (I too would have expected the new / updated stadium project to have been underway by now), but progress has to be measured against the "Evolution not revolution" mantra, which I would say the club has / is delivering.
Rich, a very reasonable and fair post, as ever. Yes, the “evolution not revolution” mantra can be reasonably used to judge what’s happened. But he also said “finance for the new stadium would not be a problem.” It depends which sentence that he said in 2016 you want to accept as his mantra I suppose. 😉 In the end we are where we are and I agree with nearly all you’ve said and how you’ve judged it. I’m not sure we can ignore the stadium question because it is so critical to our future. TG and others must spend so much time dealing with the fallout from our decreasing capacity and re-allocating where ST holders sit. I seem to remember a time 3/4 years ago where it was said the break even figure was around 9,000. If that’s the case (I suspect with increased costs that would be a higher attendance figure now.) We’re getting to the point where even sell outs may represent a loss. A crazy situation surely. I love what Wael has done for us in many ways but the future of the ground remains the elephant in the room. No communication about it, nothing. I think that is poor, others may have different opinions. UTG!
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Post by Gasshole on Jul 25, 2022 10:21:10 GMT
I'll believe it's dead when I'm no longer peering at a piece of wasteland through a hole in a corrugated fence Not just a hole in a fence but a gateway to Nirvana.
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Post by baggins on Jul 25, 2022 10:23:06 GMT
I'll believe it's dead when I'm no longer peering at a piece of wasteland through a hole in a corrugated fence Not just a hole in a fence but a gateway to Nirvana. You and your holes in a fence.
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Post by Gasshole on Jul 25, 2022 10:29:11 GMT
Not just a hole in a fence but a gateway to Nirvana. You and your holes in a fence. Attachment Deleted
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Post by baggins on Jul 25, 2022 10:40:30 GMT
For a second I thought that was an Elephant looking at me.
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Post by peterhooper57 on Jul 25, 2022 10:40:34 GMT
Wael said it would be evolution, he is currently delivering on building a tremendous training complex, he has also hired Joey, on a long term contract, who has imo produced a tremendous squad of players, got the team back into div 1, and I would not be surprised if in a couple of seasons BRFC will be playing in the Championship; the new ground project is tricky, if you want to watch football at the MEM then in short term (next 3 years) you probably need to purchase a season ticket. That said, I am sure Wael is looking at a number of potential possibilities concerning building a new ground, whether it is going to built in or around Temple Meads only time will tell, although one thing for sure, where-ever Bristol City FC Council is involved, it is unlikely it would be constructed any time soon.
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Post by richmace on Jul 25, 2022 11:08:48 GMT
Remember the "Evolution not revolution" mantra that was initially communicated by Wael. That was a very clever piece of communication and the man has ben 100% true to his word. Everything has to be judged against that mantra.
Bristol Rovers are evolving nicely into a football club that can compete (at what level it remains to be seen).
We have seen improvements across the football club, both on and off the pitch. The stadium issue will be dealt with at the correct time, I am sure of that.
I can imagine continual minor tweaks / improvements to The Mem until the time comes when an annoucement is made. A that point we can begin to judge.
For me (ignoring the stadium question which I know is critical to the long term future), the only realistic target the football club can have over the next 5 years is to have reached the Championship, ideally becoming established or at least a regular yo-yo club.
Obviously a new / updated stadium AND the Championship would be the ideal.
I am not defending the club (I too would have expected the new / updated stadium project to have been underway by now), but progress has to be measured against the "Evolution not revolution" mantra, which I would say the club has / is delivering.
Rich, a very reasonable and fair post, as ever. Yes, the “evolution not revolution” mantra can be reasonably used to judge what’s happened. But he also said “finance for the new stadium would not be a problem.” It depends which sentence that he said in 2016 you want to accept as his mantra I suppose. 😉 In the end we are where we are and I agree with nearly all you’ve said and how you’ve judged it. I’m not sure we can ignore the stadium question because it is so critical to our future. TG and others must spend so much time dealing with the fallout from our decreasing capacity and re-allocating where ST holders sit. I seem to remember a time 3/4 years ago where it was said the break even figure was around 9,000. If that’s the case (I suspect with increased costs that would be a higher attendance figure now.) We’re getting to the point where even sell outs may represent a loss. A crazy situation surely. I love what Wael has done for us in many ways but the future of the ground remains the elephant in the room. No communication about it, nothing. I think that is poor, others may have different opinions. UTG!
Agree 100%. We are currently losing a significant amount of ticket sales, and as a result missing out on attracting more "casual" pay-on-the-day supporters which we so deperately need.
The board can see this and it must be a major source of frustration for them. It is also going to be hurting fincancially, as our capacity has dropped from 12,300 to just over 9,000. All we can hope for is that a plan for the stadium exists and is being worked on.
If the statement about finance being available is correct, we will only find this out when the time comes to deliver.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2022 11:17:19 GMT
Wael said it would be evolution, he is currently delivering on building a tremendous training complex, he has also hired Joey, on a long term contract, who has imo produced a tremendous squad of players, got the team back into div 1, and I would not be surprised if in a couple of seasons BRFC will be playing in the Championship; the new ground project is tricky, if you want to watch football at the MEM then in short term (next 3 years) you probably need to purchase a season ticket. That said, I am sure Wael is looking at a number of potential possibilities concerning building a new ground, whether it is going to built in or around Temple Meads only time will tell, although one thing for sure, where-ever Bristol City FC Council is involved, it is unlikely it would be constructed any time soon. Another reason to look at North Bristol, as that comes under South Gloucestershire County Council and wouldn't need to involve BBC.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2022 11:29:24 GMT
Wael said it would be evolution, he is currently delivering on building a tremendous training complex, he has also hired Joey, on a long term contract, who has imo produced a tremendous squad of players, got the team back into div 1, and I would not be surprised if in a couple of seasons BRFC will be playing in the Championship; the new ground project is tricky, if you want to watch football at the MEM then in short term (next 3 years) you probably need to purchase a season ticket. That said, I am sure Wael is looking at a number of potential possibilities concerning building a new ground, whether it is going to built in or around Temple Meads only time will tell, although one thing for sure, where-ever Bristol City FC Council is involved, it is unlikely it would be constructed any time soon. Another reason to look at North Bristol, as that comes under South Gloucestershire County Council and wouldn't need to involve BBC. TBF, I don't think there is anything to point towards BCC holding the club back, any pp we have applied for has been granted in the past by them. Over the past decade or so, it's only been the club that has decided not to move forward with PP. That said, as a North Bristol Boy South Gloucs is more preferable
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Post by baggins on Jul 25, 2022 11:36:20 GMT
Another reason to look at North Bristol, as that comes under South Gloucestershire County Council and wouldn't need to involve BBC. TBF, I don't think there is anything to point towards BCC holding the club back, any pp we have applied for has been granted in the past by them. Over the past decade or so, it's only been the club that has decided not to move forward with PP. That said, as a North Bristol Boy South Gloucs is more preferable Lyde Green would be perfect.
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Post by perryfenwick on Jul 25, 2022 11:41:42 GMT
There is no evidence anywhere to suggest that BCC have held us back. The Nimbys of Gloucester Road may have but the Council haven't.
As for whether the FM happens, Wael needs to make it happen or find someone that can.
It's embarrassing enough that we still sit and rot in a 1980s amateur rugby ground, charging £30-35 for a seat in a mouldy, leaky tent once used at the outer courts of Wimbledon for lads to leer at Anna Kournikova (yep, that long ago, she was still playing).
He can tinker around the edges all he wants - improved matchday experience and the training ground is all great stuff - but at some point the bubble is going to burst after a few more Derby County or Bury situations. Clubs will be made to live more within their means. And if our means continue to be made at that dump we're in big trouble.
It's his duty to get it done or sell up to someone who can. If it's the latter, he might find it tough given that the only person Nick could find to sell to was, um, Wael
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Post by baggins on Jul 25, 2022 11:45:04 GMT
There is no evidence anywhere to suggest that BCC have held us back. The Nimbys of Gloucester Road may have but the Council haven't. As for whether the FM happens, Wael needs to make it happen or find someone that can. It's embarrassing enough that we still sit and rot in a 1980s amateur rugby ground, charging £30-35 for a seat in a mouldy, leaky tent once used at the outer courts of Wimbledon for lads to leer at Anna Kournikova (yep, that long ago, she was still playing). He can tinker around the edges all he wants - improved matchday experience and the training ground is all great stuff - but at some point the bubble is going to burst after a few more Derby County or Bury situations. Clubs will be made to live more within their means. And if our means continue to be made at that dump we're in big trouble. It's his duty to get it done or sell up to someone who can. If it's the latter, he might find it tough given that the only person Nick could find to sell to was, um, Wael You think millions on an amazing Training facility is just "tinkering"? I'm not sure what similarity we have with Derby or Bury.
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Post by perryfenwick on Jul 25, 2022 11:51:25 GMT
[/quote]You think millions on an amazing Training facility is just "tinkering"? I'm not sure what similarity we have with Derby or Bury.[/quote]
Yes I'm afraid it is, compared to the effect on the club and it's revenues that the stadium should bring. Not to say it isn't money well spent/a good thing, but it's not a game changer
We don't share much with clubs that have risked bankruptcy but a few more clubs will face that soon and I think the EFL will make us all live more to our means e.g. less reliant on freebies/loans from wealthy men who like owning football clubs. Because those clubs that nearly went under were owned by rich blokes who then got bored.
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Post by baggins on Jul 25, 2022 11:55:09 GMT
You think millions on an amazing Training facility is just "tinkering"? I'm not sure what similarity we have with Derby or Bury.[/quote] Yes I'm afraid it is, compared to the effect on the club and it's revenues that the stadium should bring. Not to say it isn't money well spent/a good thing, but it's not a game changer We don't share much with clubs that have risked bankruptcy but a few more clubs will face that soon and I think the EFL will make us all live more to our means e.g. less reliant on freebies/loans from wealthy men who like owning football clubs. Because those clubs that nearly went under were owned by rich blokes who then got bored. [/quote] We don't have an owner showing signs of being bored, he's written off £35mil debt, paid everyone during lockdown, JB on a decent contract with money to spend, so I don't get your point.
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Post by paddingtongas on Jul 25, 2022 12:02:30 GMT
G1981 owns a garage of some kind, he's hardly a high flying businessman who knows the ins and outs of property development/the construction industry. However you do have to fear he's heard from his contacts that the FM has stalled/isn't now going ahead, hence, the total silence on that front? I've always sensed Wael's nowhere near as wealthy as some fans think he is, and whilst he can write off £2m/£3m a season getting the money to finance a new stadium is beyond him, particularly now that construction costs have gone through the roof. If the FM is dead and no other sites are being seriously considered, I'm not sure where this leaves us as a club. Remember the "Evolution not revolution" mantra that was initially communicated by Wael. That was a very clever piece of communication and the man has ben 100% true to his word. Everything has to be judged against that mantra.
Bristol Rovers are evolving nicely into a football club that can compete (at what level it remains to be seen).
We have seen improvements across the football club, both on and off the pitch. The stadium issue will be dealt with at the correct time, I am sure of that.
I can imagine continual minor tweaks / improvements to The Mem until the time comes when an annoucement is made. A that point we can begin to judge.
For me (ignoring the stadium question which I know is critical to the long term future), the only realistic target the football club can have over the next 5 years is to have reached the Championship, ideally becoming established or at least a regular yo-yo club.
Obviously a new / updated stadium AND the Championship would be the ideal.
I am not defending the club (I too would have expected the new / updated stadium project to have been underway by now), but progress has to be measured against the "Evolution not revolution" mantra, which I would say the club has / is delivering.
With respect, "evolution" got us relegated, "Revolution" got us promoted back to where we started !! Agree with the rest of your post, & IMO once we sale/leave the Mem, a playing pitch for football/rugby/hockey/etc should be incorporated into any deal as this is why it is there in the first place !!!
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Post by baggins on Jul 25, 2022 12:05:39 GMT
Remember the "Evolution not revolution" mantra that was initially communicated by Wael. That was a very clever piece of communication and the man has ben 100% true to his word. Everything has to be judged against that mantra.
Bristol Rovers are evolving nicely into a football club that can compete (at what level it remains to be seen).
We have seen improvements across the football club, both on and off the pitch. The stadium issue will be dealt with at the correct time, I am sure of that.
I can imagine continual minor tweaks / improvements to The Mem until the time comes when an annoucement is made. A that point we can begin to judge.
For me (ignoring the stadium question which I know is critical to the long term future), the only realistic target the football club can have over the next 5 years is to have reached the Championship, ideally becoming established or at least a regular yo-yo club.
Obviously a new / updated stadium AND the Championship would be the ideal.
I am not defending the club (I too would have expected the new / updated stadium project to have been underway by now), but progress has to be measured against the "Evolution not revolution" mantra, which I would say the club has / is delivering.
With respect, "evolution" got us relegated, "Revolution" got us promoted back to where we started !! Agree with the rest of your post, & IMO once we sale/leave the Mem, a playing pitch for football/rugby/hockey/etc should be incorporated into any deal as this is why it is there in the first place !!! Rugby and Hockey?
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Post by gashead1981 on Jul 25, 2022 12:15:51 GMT
Well said. Gashead1981 so slavishly follows the party line that it's hard to take some of his posts seriously. Nothing the owners do is wrong. All criticism of them is rebuffed. He's just a fan, apparently, but knows 100% what is and isn't true at other times. It's hard to differentiate between what is being fed to him as a propaganda vehicle for this forum (whether he knows it or not) and what might actually be true. I've no idea either way of '81's knowledge on the issues, I do seem to recall though he was originally thinking that a Mem rebuild was feasible for £20m or so but is now much higher and much more problematic. I'd be interested, assuming I'm not misremembering, what has caused the change of opinion. Not me mate. I’ve been saying for the last 3-4 years that the Mem is totally a non starter and if it was a starter, certainly not for £20m.
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Post by paddingtongas on Jul 25, 2022 12:28:23 GMT
With respect, "evolution" got us relegated, "Revolution" got us promoted back to where we started !! Agree with the rest of your post, & IMO once we sale/leave the Mem, a playing pitch for football/rugby/hockey/etc should be incorporated into any deal as this is why it is there in the first place !!! Rugby and Hockey? The point was, the ground was initially given to remember those local rugby players that fell in WW1, so IMHO a rugby (& or football) pitch should be incorporated into any deal.
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Post by baggins on Jul 25, 2022 12:50:15 GMT
The point was, the ground was initially given to remember those local rugby players that fell in WW1, so IMHO a rugby (& or football) pitch should be incorporated into any deal. I'm sure when we build a Stadium, wherever it may be, we'll put something in place to remember them.
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Post by gashead1981 on Jul 25, 2022 12:50:27 GMT
I wouldn’t say I was particularly ITK if at all. Even if I get the opportunity I don’t ask. Like you, im happy being a fan and nothing more. 1. It depends how much you’re spending. You may have an opportunity full of promises but if they aren’t good promises the consequences could be catastrophic. So if wael is using his discretion rather than going in headlong to a bad deal just because there might be an opportunity then his thinking should be respected regardless what we want to hear. Is there urgency? To a degree, but the current economic climate + pandemic/recovery from has really caused major building projects to hit the buffers. We need to constantly reassess everything. I have patience probably because I understand business, what it takes to invest in something, how long to wait for the return and how long it takes to build something. I worked for big companies before going alone and it’s easy to be a paid director and help run someone else’s company. It’s not your risk, it’s not your life’s work and you’re a cog in a big wheel of other opinions and clever ideas. When it’s your own money and your own legacy you’re happy to take your time, consider every move, decision and idea. You also need to get the right people around you and even if you do, you can get let down by some people who you trusted, both with your legacy and also with your money. People don’t appreciate just how tough building something is. Wael technically, has only owned us for 3 years and 2 of those were through the pandemic. He never had sole control until his father passed away and we were restructured. So that’s why he needs to be given time and opportunity. Oh come off it 1981, you paint yourself as being ITK in your posts following your reply esp about “100% knowing...” about aspects of our club. All I have is opinions, you say you “know”! Very different. Of course we need to constantly reassess all aspects but your original reply and arguments were far stronger than this reposte. You’ve collected a series of excuses and reasons for not doing things. Yes I’m sure the current economic climate is hard and building something is tough but to say that you “....understand business, what it takes.....” is insulting to others who may have a different opinion. I thought we’d left all that stuff about I know more than you so my opinion has more importance than yours behind a long time ago. No real idea what you do but to adopt that attitude that implies that others don’t understand business is condescending at the least and possibly insulting. I’m left very surprised that you indicate the reasons for not doing it when in February 2016, Wael was very certain that the new ground was vital for the club and finance would not be a problem. Why would any family / consortium /group buy BRFC and think a new ground wasn’t an important first step. It’s senseless, it flies in the face of sensible business that you would buy a football club with no intention to turn annual losses of £2/3m into break even or profit. There is no way they would have involved themselves thinking we can do this without a new ground. No way. Lots of people on here have experience in different spheres, some commercial, some business and some more public service but I’m sure they will have worked in a business where there is a need to communicate with clients/ customers/public/staff, plan forward in the short, medium and long term and put those ideas into working plans which in some cases will lead to performance targets with criteria against which you are judged. Your assertion regarding “... I understand business...” would be laughed at and the bottom line after excuses have been stated would be unacceptable. What’s perhaps more worrying is that your posts could be interpreted in the light that nothing much is likely to happen regarding the ground in the foreseeable future. That you said earlier that some of us were using the new ground as a fantasy makes me worry that you’ve given our leaders the script about why nothing is happening and life at the Mem is going to be the new norm and we’d better get used to it. I hope that’s not the case. UTG! I used to be more ITK under the old board and said nothing when I did know something. I share a box with Nick Higgs now and I’ve heard him regale the story about Lansdown a few times, that how I know it. I know about as much as you regarding all things club these days and I make no waves about trying to find out what’s going on either. Why would a family consortium buy a footballing business and assume that the previous owners set up the best deal possible? Why would they not do further exploration of everything in place? That would be even more foolish. Personally I think them walking away from the UWE thinking they get easily get another piece of land to build a stadium, if indeed that was their thinking, was naive. I do know Ed Ware spent time and money of his own trying to keep it alive long after the Al’Qadis walked away but also UWE weren’t willing to renegotiate what had already been agreed so it became a stand off. Perhaps it would have been different if Wael was the sole person in charge then rather than Hani, who seemed to be the one who was controlling, or rather authorising the spend. I don’t wish to insult anyone, but sometimes there is no objective long view when it comes to peoples perception on how long it takes to build something from the bottom up as well as the perception that throwing money at an obvious problem, in this case the Mem, is going to work. I’ve had experience of working for a company like that where the assumption was that a brand new shiny glass car dealership would cure all the issues they had. It in fact made things worse to a large degree, the never cured the internal problems that made everything function, they just moved a whole set of problems to another site with a greater amount of debt and more pressure to return a higher budget to satisfy the investment. And that’s what kind of is happening here. Let’s throw £75M at the Mem because we need more seats and problem solved is the assertion, without looking at whether it’s going to answer all of our prayers and problems or just cause a massive noose around the clubs neck in terms of huge debt that it can’t pay back in the quantities that would match the investment. When building the infrastructure from the inside out properly whilst looking for a new site, whether that’s the FM, Lyde Green or A N other, is the most logical thing to do at this stage and certainly puts us on a more sure footing going forward. By rights, the board have no need to keep us informed until there is something to announce, especially if there maybe some confidentially agreements surrounding it, which wouldn’t be unusual. The last I heard anything about the FM deal didn’t come from the club but came from a client of mine who has a business operating out of the existing site, which was then repeated by a poster here who’s mother has a shareholding in another company on the FM site. I’m effect, they had exactly the same information. The real hold up seemed to be relocation of one particular business of the site. Don’t start that whole “the owners have given you a script to post” nonsense. It’s utterly ridiculous and is the sort of paranoia that used to get Jim Chappell and Ken Masters all revved up. I’m pretty sure Wael, Tom and David are more than happy to speak freely and directly to you to answer any questions you may have without the need for a 3rd party on a football forum.
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