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Post by trevorgas on Nov 7, 2019 10:00:41 GMT
So is that democracy in action you get a choice of one candidate based on one single issue,manipulation is what I would call it. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 7, 2019 10:04:10 GMT
Is it a worthy aspiration to have to use food banks, do you think? Is it an aspiration to be in work and barely afford to pay the rent? Is it an aspiration to cut 20,000 police officers, do you think? Is it an aspiration cut the budget for training nurses, is it an aspiration to have local authority budgets cut so much that they can no longer deliver services to their local communities? Is it an aspiration to vote for a party that delivers all of that and manages to double the national debt at the same time?? Some aspiration that. I think you'll find that it is Corbyn who does 'aspiration'. After saying he would get rid of student debt at the last election, he had to backtrack and claimed it was just 'an aspiration'. You are also behind the times. The Tories have already started to recruit 20,000 Police Officers. Labour has promised 10,000 Police Officers. You and Officer Brady are also missing the point (yet again). Corbyn is saying that young people do not need to work hard. They need council houses. They don't need to look after their health. They need bigger State. The State will provide. If people stopped working hard and paying taxes, then I don't know where the money will come from to pay for all of this. Well if your a Marxist like Mcdonnell you want a bigger state as that equals more control,individualism is not a welcome trait in his world. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 10:07:43 GMT
Is it a worthy aspiration to have to use food banks, do you think? Is it an aspiration to be in work and barely afford to pay the rent? Is it an aspiration to cut 20,000 police officers, do you think? Is it an aspiration cut the budget for training nurses, is it an aspiration to have local authority budgets cut so much that they can no longer deliver services to their local communities? Is it an aspiration to vote for a party that delivers all of that and manages to double the national debt at the same time?? Some aspiration that. I think you'll find that it is Corbyn who does 'aspiration'. After saying he would get rid of student debt at the last election, he had to backtrack and claimed it was just 'an aspiration'. You are also behind the times. The Tories have already started to recruit 20,000 Police Officers. Labour has promised 10,000 Police Officers. You and Officer Brady are also missing the point (yet again). Corbyn is saying that young people do not need to work hard. They need council houses. They don't need to look after their health. They need bigger State. The State will provide. If people stopped working hard and paying taxes, then I don't know where the money will come from to pay for all of this. I thought you agreed with the good officer that cutting 20,000 police and then recruiting 20,000 police stretches credulity to breaking point. To be honest election pledges are like snow on a hot day in the tropics. I, personally, like to judge a political party on what they do, or have done, once in power. It's been 9 years of this lot. Judge them on their record... How the hell anyone could vote for them is beyond me. No let me adjust that, I fully understand why the 1% who own the most would. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 10:13:37 GMT
So is that democracy in action you get a choice of one candidate based on one single issue,manipulation is what I would call it. Why? Labour are not part of this agreement, the Tories obviously not. So there will be at least three candidates. Like minded people coalescing around an agreed position is perfectly democratic. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Nov 7, 2019 10:14:58 GMT
British people are so depressing. Absolutely no compassion for anyone and would sooner see people made homeless than make sure the very wealthiest get taxed as they should. Would any of you make a 'lifestyle choice'to live on the poverty line? No I dont think so. Frankly, theres an argument there to say that we deserve sh** education and health services. We keep voting for it. Jesus wept. Why does it have to be so polarised? Seems like you either have to be like Mother Theresa or some sort of Hitler character. Why can there not be any understanding of a middle ground? There is plenty of compassion for those who suffer misfortune so such as ill health but life for those who work hard and pay ever more in taxes is becoming more frustrating when you see life’s wasters abusing the benefit system. A system that was once a temporary, last resort for those in difficulty but has been allowed to become a lifestyle choice for so many. It doesnt have to be polarised that's the point! Right now, it's in the worst state it's ever been in. I'd call that pretty polar. I am arguing for more support and intervention not the Hilton for all. But when I do, all you hear is the compassionless diatribe about 'scroungers'and who deserves what. In the fifth biggest economy in the world we shouldn't have to be picking up dead homeless people early doors before the suits leave for work. My child should be able to go to a school that doesnt have to beg for stationary money or close for half a day per week. It's about what sort of society you want to live in (or in nobby's case, what sort of society you want to comment on from a distance whilst living somewhere else entirely). We should be ashamed as a society of the levels of poverty but no, we say 'Aha but I bet they all have cable TV'. News flash eric, they dont. They really dont. Only in the daily mail do they have swimming pools and luxury apartments and frankly the consistent use of cynical untruths to justify the levels of poverty in this country is a shame upon it. You want to live in a country with sh**e public services and social support. I believe it's worth paying more for a better society. That's where we differ I suppose. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 7, 2019 10:19:40 GMT
So is that democracy in action you get a choice of one candidate based on one single issue,manipulation is what I would call it. Why? Labour are not part of this agreement, the Tories obviously not. So there will be at least three candidates. Like minded people coalescing around an agreed position is perfectly democratic. Sorry don't agree they have Manifestos that they all should stand on,there's a World of difference between the Greens and Plaid Cymru and to deny voters that choice is crass. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 10:21:15 GMT
Why does it have to be so polarised? Seems like you either have to be like Mother Theresa or some sort of Hitler character. Why can there not be any understanding of a middle ground? There is plenty of compassion for those who suffer misfortune so such as ill health but life for those who work hard and pay ever more in taxes is becoming more frustrating when you see life’s wasters abusing the benefit system. A system that was once a temporary, last resort for those in difficulty but has been allowed to become a lifestyle choice for so many. It doesnt have to be polarised that's the point! Right now, it's in the worst state it's ever been in. I'd call that pretty polar. I am arguing for more support and intervention not the Hilton for all. But when I do, all you hear is the compassionless diatribe about 'scroungers'and who deserves what. In the fifth biggest economy in the world we shouldn't have to be picking up dead homeless people early doors before the suits leave for work. My child should be able to go to a school that doesnt have to beg for stationary money or close for half a day per week. It's about what sort of society you want to live in (or in nobby's case, what sort of society you want to comment on from a distance whilst living somewhere else entirely). We should be ashamed as a society of the levels of poverty but no, we say 'Aha but I bet they all have cable TV'. News flash eric, they dont. They really dont. Only in the daily mail do they have swimming pools and luxury apartments and frankly the consistent use of cynical untruths to justify the levels of poverty in this country is a shame upon it. You want to live in a country with sh**e public services and social support. I believe it's worth paying more for a better society. That's where we differ I suppose. This. My view entirely (apart the bit about Nobby, he has the right to live where he chooses, it's why I voted remain). |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Nov 7, 2019 10:22:42 GMT
It doesnt have to be polarised that's the point! Right now, it's in the worst state it's ever been in. I'd call that pretty polar. I am arguing for more support and intervention not the Hilton for all. But when I do, all you hear is the compassionless diatribe about 'scroungers'and who deserves what. In the fifth biggest economy in the world we shouldn't have to be picking up dead homeless people early doors before the suits leave for work. My child should be able to go to a school that doesnt have to beg for stationary money or close for half a day per week. It's about what sort of society you want to live in (or in nobby's case, what sort of society you want to comment on from a distance whilst living somewhere else entirely). We should be ashamed as a society of the levels of poverty but no, we say 'Aha but I bet they all have cable TV'. News flash eric, they dont. They really dont. Only in the daily mail do they have swimming pools and luxury apartments and frankly the consistent use of cynical untruths to justify the levels of poverty in this country is a shame upon it. You want to live in a country with sh**e public services and social support. I believe it's worth paying more for a better society. That's where we differ I suppose. This. My view entirely (apart the bit about Nobby, he has the right to live where he chooses, it's why I voted remain). of course he does I was just suggesting why he might not be seeing the same things we are day to day. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 7, 2019 10:23:21 GMT
Why does it have to be so polarised? Seems like you either have to be like Mother Theresa or some sort of Hitler character. Why can there not be any understanding of a middle ground? There is plenty of compassion for those who suffer misfortune so such as ill health but life for those who work hard and pay ever more in taxes is becoming more frustrating when you see life’s wasters abusing the benefit system. A system that was once a temporary, last resort for those in difficulty but has been allowed to become a lifestyle choice for so many. It doesnt have to be polarised that's the point! Right now, it's in the worst state it's ever been in. I'd call that pretty polar. I am arguing for more support and intervention not the Hilton for all. But when I do, all you hear is the compassionless diatribe about 'scroungers'and who deserves what. In the fifth biggest economy in the world we shouldn't have to be picking up dead homeless people early doors before the suits leave for work. My child should be able to go to a school that doesnt have to beg for stationary money or close for half a day per week. It's about what sort of society you want to live in (or in nobby's case, what sort of society you want to comment on from a distance whilst living somewhere else entirely). We should be ashamed as a society of the levels of poverty but no, we say 'Aha but I bet they all have cable TV'. News flash eric, they dont. They really dont. Only in the daily mail do they have swimming pools and luxury apartments and frankly the consistent use of cynical untruths to justify the levels of poverty in this country is a shame upon it. You want to live in a country with sh**e public services and social support. I believe it's worth paying more for a better society. That's where we differ I suppose. I agree with a lot of what you have said but would you want to allow any of this lot to spend our hard earned money to address the issues you raise.All of them have displayed a complete lack of ability to meet these challenges over the last 70 years what's going to change now? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 10:28:40 GMT
Why? Labour are not part of this agreement, the Tories obviously not. So there will be at least three candidates. Like minded people coalescing around an agreed position is perfectly democratic. Sorry don't agree they have Manifestos that they all should stand on,there's a World of difference between the Greens and Plaid Cymru and to deny voters that choice is crass. I sense frustration at what MAY be an effective tactic. Let me try this. If Plaid Cymru have a core principle which they place most highly on their agenda, but have no chance of winning and be able to promote that principle in Parliament, and find they share that principle with another party or parties and by coalescing they can, one of them, win the seat by offering a opportunity to the public who then vote for it, how is that not democratic? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 10:30:44 GMT
This. My view entirely (apart the bit about Nobby, he has the right to live where he chooses, it's why I voted remain). of course he does I was just suggesting why he might not be seeing the same things we are day to day. I think he is very aware, it's just his views are diametrically the opposite of ours (if it's ok with you to say "ours") |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Nov 7, 2019 10:32:23 GMT
It doesnt have to be polarised that's the point! Right now, it's in the worst state it's ever been in. I'd call that pretty polar. I am arguing for more support and intervention not the Hilton for all. But when I do, all you hear is the compassionless diatribe about 'scroungers'and who deserves what. In the fifth biggest economy in the world we shouldn't have to be picking up dead homeless people early doors before the suits leave for work. My child should be able to go to a school that doesnt have to beg for stationary money or close for half a day per week. It's about what sort of society you want to live in (or in nobby's case, what sort of society you want to comment on from a distance whilst living somewhere else entirely). We should be ashamed as a society of the levels of poverty but no, we say 'Aha but I bet they all have cable TV'. News flash eric, they dont. They really dont. Only in the daily mail do they have swimming pools and luxury apartments and frankly the consistent use of cynical untruths to justify the levels of poverty in this country is a shame upon it. You want to live in a country with sh**e public services and social support. I believe it's worth paying more for a better society. That's where we differ I suppose. I agree with a lot of what you have said but would you want to allow any of this lot to spend our hard earned money to address the issues you raise.All of them have displayed a complete lack of ability to meet these challenges over the last 70 years what's going to change now? Oh I dont have a lot of faith dont get me wrong. But I do believe that inequality has worsened dramatically over the last 10 years under Tory rule (that's why we vote for them isnt it?). I'm talking about meaningful change to narrow the range between super rich and the abandoned, to better public services. To at least bring us in line with the average in European schooling. The one thing I have categorical belief in is that another Tory government would not narrow the gap enough, if at all. Is labour or lib dems the answer? I have no idea. Is tory the answer? Definitely not. You see, the fundamental for me is this question really. When faced with a human societal problem, do you pull together, compromise and support community? Or do you become insular, cynical and chastise? When you are on your death bed (this one is dramatic just humour me) do you want to be the guy that tried to help or do you want to be the guy that voted to make life just a little bit harder for those already in hardship and crisis? I doubt myself sometimes but I do still (just) believe in compassion and in people. I couldnt vote to extend suffering, it's not in my nature I guess. |
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Post by peterparker on Nov 7, 2019 10:33:26 GMT
So is that democracy in action you get a choice of one candidate based on one single issue,manipulation is what I would call it. manipulation or coalition politics (something most of us have argued here needed to happen on the BREXIT deal in the first place)
unfortunately it is necessitated by the FPTP system and the way votes are distributed around the country in 2010 for instance
10.7m votes got the Tories 306 seats 36% share 8.6m votes got Labour got 258 29% share 6.8 got Libs 58 23 share
in 2015 the SNP got 56 seats with just 1.4m votes the libs got 8 despite getting 2.4m votes
you don't have to be a mathematician to see the share of the vote is not evenly distributed or reflected in the commons
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 10:36:41 GMT
I agree with a lot of what you have said but would you want to allow any of this lot to spend our hard earned money to address the issues you raise.All of them have displayed a complete lack of ability to meet these challenges over the last 70 years what's going to change now? Oh I dont have a lot of faith dont get me wrong. But I do believe that inequality has worsened dramatically over the last 10 years under Tory rule (that's why we vote for them isnt it?). I'm talking about meaningful change to narrow the range between super rich and the abandoned, to better public services. To at least bring us in line with the average in European schooling. The one thing I have categorical belief in is that another Tory government would not narrow the gap enough, if at all. Is labour or lib dems the answer? I have no idea. Is tory the answer? Definitely not. You see, the fundamental for me is this question really. When faced with a human societal problem, do you pull together, compromise and support community? Or do you become insular, cynical and chastise? When you are on your death bed (this one is dramatic just humour me) do you want to be the guy that tried to help or do you want to be the guy that voted to make life just a little bit harder for those already in hardship and crisis? I doubt myself sometimes but I do still (just) believe in compassion and in people. I couldnt vote to extend suffering, it's not in my nature I guess. Absolutely, this. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 7, 2019 10:37:06 GMT
Sorry don't agree they have Manifestos that they all should stand on,there's a World of difference between the Greens and Plaid Cymru and to deny voters that choice is crass. I sense frustration at what MAY be an effective tactic. Let me try this. If Plaid Cymru have a core principle which they place most highly on their agenda, but have no chance of winning and be able to promote that principle in Parliament, and find they share that principle with another party or parties and by coalescing they can, one of them, win the seat by offering a opportunity to the public who then vote for it, how is that not democratic? No I'm not frustrated as I've long since lost the will to live on Brexit Emm Plaid not a good choice for your argument,as I live in North Wales Plaids core principle is Independence and that would not be supported by the other two partys We all know why they are doing it,is just don't agree with it . Anyway long way to go and I guess we will all be mighty sick of the lot of them by the time voting comes around😊 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 10:41:37 GMT
Why does it have to be so polarised? Seems like you either have to be like Mother Theresa or some sort of Hitler character. Why can there not be any understanding of a middle ground? There is plenty of compassion for those who suffer misfortune so such as ill health but life for those who work hard and pay ever more in taxes is becoming more frustrating when you see life’s wasters abusing the benefit system. A system that was once a temporary, last resort for those in difficulty but has been allowed to become a lifestyle choice for so many. It doesnt have to be polarised that's the point! Right now, it's in the worst state it's ever been in. I'd call that pretty polar. I am arguing for more support and intervention not the Hilton for all. But when I do, all you hear is the compassionless diatribe about 'scroungers'and who deserves what. In the fifth biggest economy in the world we shouldn't have to be picking up dead homeless people early doors before the suits leave for work. My child should be able to go to a school that doesnt have to beg for stationary money or close for half a day per week. It's about what sort of society you want to live in (or in nobby's case, what sort of society you want to comment on from a distance whilst living somewhere else entirely). We should be ashamed as a society of the levels of poverty but no, we say 'Aha but I bet they all have cable TV'. News flash eric, they dont. They really dont. Only in the daily mail do they have swimming pools and luxury apartments and frankly the consistent use of cynical untruths to justify the levels of poverty in this country is a shame upon it. You want to live in a country with sh**e public services and social support. I believe it's worth paying more for a better society. That's where we differ I suppose. I guess that every house in council estates or deprived areas just have satellite dishes for decorative purposes? If people are genuinely in need and don’t waste their money on booze, fags and tv subscriptions then they won’t mind having their benefit paid in voucher form only redeemable for life’s essentials - which is surely why benefits were created? I can’t recall ever seeing a report of social housing with swimming pools. However, I am aware of a single mother who has never worked being allocated a flat in Portishead Marina when it was first constructed - presumably a percentage of a development that size would have to be provided for social housing? She must of thought all her christmas’s had come at once. I wonder how many of her friends and acquaintances saw that good fortune and thought that’s the way to go? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 10:42:55 GMT
I sense frustration at what MAY be an effective tactic. Let me try this. If Plaid Cymru have a core principle which they place most highly on their agenda, but have no chance of winning and be able to promote that principle in Parliament, and find they share that principle with another party or parties and by coalescing they can, one of them, win the seat by offering a opportunity to the public who then vote for it, how is that not democratic? No I'm not frustrated as I've long since lost the will to live on Brexit Emm Plaid not a good choice for your argument,as I live in North Wales Plaids core principle is Independence and that would not be supported by the other two partys We all know why they are doing it,is just don't agree with it . Anyway long way to go and I guess we will all be mighty sick of the lot of them by the time voting comes around😊 Most likely😋 The anarchist in me would just love it if some of those career, out of touch, MPs are dethroned with this tactic. Come on the good people Uxbridge, you can do it. Rid us of this utter bufoon. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Nov 7, 2019 10:43:21 GMT
It doesnt have to be polarised that's the point! Right now, it's in the worst state it's ever been in. I'd call that pretty polar. I am arguing for more support and intervention not the Hilton for all. But when I do, all you hear is the compassionless diatribe about 'scroungers'and who deserves what. In the fifth biggest economy in the world we shouldn't have to be picking up dead homeless people early doors before the suits leave for work. My child should be able to go to a school that doesnt have to beg for stationary money or close for half a day per week. It's about what sort of society you want to live in (or in nobby's case, what sort of society you want to comment on from a distance whilst living somewhere else entirely). We should be ashamed as a society of the levels of poverty but no, we say 'Aha but I bet they all have cable TV'. News flash eric, they dont. They really dont. Only in the daily mail do they have swimming pools and luxury apartments and frankly the consistent use of cynical untruths to justify the levels of poverty in this country is a shame upon it. You want to live in a country with sh**e public services and social support. I believe it's worth paying more for a better society. That's where we differ I suppose. I guess that every house in council estates or deprived areas just have satellite dishes for decorative purposes? If people are genuinely in need and don’t waste their money on booze, fags and tv subscriptions then they won’t mind having their benefit paid in voucher form only redeemable for life’s essentials - which is surely why benefits were created? I can’t recall ever seeing a report of social housing with swimming pools. However, I am aware of a single mother who has never worked being allocated a flat in Portishead Marina when it was first constructed - presumably a percentage of a development that size would have to be provided for social housing? She must of thought all her christmas’s had come at once. I wonder how many of her friends and acquaintances saw that good fortune and thought that’s the way to go? You seem to still be talking about benefit claimants, not the homeless, foodbank users, education, or anything else we have been musing on. I daresay your post sounds a bit jealous and you seem to be forgetting that most people in council houses do work! |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 7, 2019 10:45:20 GMT
I agree with a lot of what you have said but would you want to allow any of this lot to spend our hard earned money to address the issues you raise.All of them have displayed a complete lack of ability to meet these challenges over the last 70 years what's going to change now? Oh I dont have a lot of faith dont get me wrong. But I do believe that inequality has worsened dramatically over the last 10 years under Tory rule (that's why we vote for them isnt it?). I'm talking about meaningful change to narrow the range between super rich and the abandoned, to better public services. To at least bring us in line with the average in European schooling. The one thing I have categorical belief in is that another Tory government would not narrow the gap enough, if at all. Is labour or lib dems the answer? I have no idea. Is tory the answer? Definitely not. You see, the fundamental for me is this question really. When faced with a human societal problem, do you pull together, compromise and support community? Or do you become insular, cynical and chastise? When you are on your death bed (this one is dramatic just humour me) do you want to be the guy that tried to help or do you want to be the guy that voted to make life just a little bit harder for those already in hardship and crisis? I doubt myself sometimes but I do still (just) believe in compassion and in people. I couldnt vote to extend suffering, it's not in my nature I guess. Absolutely agree, the challenge for me is that having been a Labour voter all my like Corbyn and his mates have I competence written all over them and I can't vote for that.I cannot vote Tory as it goes against my principles so I have to decide whether to sit this one out or not. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 7, 2019 10:46:16 GMT
Oh I dont have a lot of faith dont get me wrong. But I do believe that inequality has worsened dramatically over the last 10 years under Tory rule (that's why we vote for them isnt it?). I'm talking about meaningful change to narrow the range between super rich and the abandoned, to better public services. To at least bring us in line with the average in European schooling. The one thing I have categorical belief in is that another Tory government would not narrow the gap enough, if at all. Is labour or lib dems the answer? I have no idea. Is tory the answer? Definitely not. You see, the fundamental for me is this question really. When faced with a human societal problem, do you pull together, compromise and support community? Or do you become insular, cynical and chastise? When you are on your death bed (this one is dramatic just humour me) do you want to be the guy that tried to help or do you want to be the guy that voted to make life just a little bit harder for those already in hardship and crisis? I doubt myself sometimes but I do still (just) believe in compassion and in people. I couldnt vote to extend suffering, it's not in my nature I guess. Absolutely agree, the challenge for me is that having been a Labour voter all my like Corbyn and his mates have I competence written all over them and I can't vote for that.I cannot vote Tory as it goes against my principles so I have to decide whether to sit this one out or not. Life sorry |
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