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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 13:05:32 GMT
If you dont buy the phone, they dont make any money to pay tax Ah, this is where it gets complicated. Let's use Starbuck's as an example, and I'll keep this simple. Starbuck's make a large profit in the UK, so they should be paying Corporation Tax. However, what they do is in effect buy their coffee from themselves, via a subsidiary company in Switzerland. With careful accounting they arrange that the price they pay to buy that coffee is more than the profit they make in the UK, therefore they are running at a loss in the UK. No profits mean to tax paid. Quite simple really. Once again though, where are these large companies headquartered? Where do they pay their tax? It's easy to shout that they have to pay their fair share, but you have to follow the rules to follow the money. And that would be false accounting. But they do employ inter company charges, to allocate as much profit as legally possible to the lowest tax regime. It's been happening for years. On the false accounting charge, Apple were found guilty of this in Ireland, lost their appeal and were ordered to pay €17 billion (as best I recall) to the Government in Dublin. Not sure if this has happened yet. |
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Post by baggins on Nov 7, 2019 13:09:56 GMT
I say again, what % of German corporations have relocated to Luxembourg given the rate of tax is 34%? Companies like Mercedes, BMW and VW pay next to nothing in Corporation Tax. The belief is that they provide hundreds of thousands of jobs and bring wealth and capital into the country. Over the years, they have lobbied the government to accept the fact they shouldn't pay Corporation Tax, and the politicians have agreed with them. It is the same with many other large German companies. Doesn't that mean that their employees pay the appropriate personal tax whilst as a Corporation they walk away paying next to nothing? It's not right, it really isn't. When you think of the billions these Companies are worth, to pay the appropriate tax and what that could do for those in need, it's sickening that they'd rather get richer than most could possibly imagine, than help. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 13:10:02 GMT
It was genuine question as I dont know and you are far closer to it than me, and most on here. Have those companies, the car companies, actually relocated their registrations outside of Germany? I do know of one major company that you would instantly recognise as being a famous German company that is actually registered in Holland. The other factor with large companies paying corporation tax here is this argument. If the companies have more money to invest and spend (instead of paying Corporation Tax) then they can afford to pay their workers more, and hence, those workers earning more will pay more in personal tax. When you are literally talking about hundreds of thousands of workers this does make some sense. There is no doubt that workers at companies like Mercedes, BMW and VW are paid well above the normal, and they also receive many additional benefits by working for those companies. It also means that the company has more money to invest in things like R&D, which helps keep them ahead of their competitors and therefore repeating the cycle of success (hopefully!). Ok. So not many off the top of your head. I get the argument on free cash flow leads to investment. Not convinced about higher wages. I guess the problem is that this argument has led to a disproportionate shift in profit from the non owners of capital to those that do. That is Dividend and Capital Growth over employee incomes. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 13:11:22 GMT
Ah, this is where it gets complicated. Let's use Starbuck's as an example, and I'll keep this simple. Starbuck's make a large profit in the UK, so they should be paying Corporation Tax. However, what they do is in effect buy their coffee from themselves, via a subsidiary company in Switzerland. With careful accounting they arrange that the price they pay to buy that coffee is more than the profit they make in the UK, therefore they are running at a loss in the UK. No profits mean to tax paid. Quite simple really. Once again though, where are these large companies headquartered? Where do they pay their tax? It's easy to shout that they have to pay their fair share, but you have to follow the rules to follow the money. And that would be false accounting. But they do employ inter company charges, to allocate as much profit as legally possible to the lowest tax regime. It's been happening for years. On the false accounting charge, Apple were found guilty of this in Ireland, lost their appeal and were ordered to pay €17 billion (as best I recall) to the Government in Dublin. Not sure if this has happened yet. As I said, I tried to keep it simple, but in effect, that is what Starbuck's are doing. No profit in the UK means no tax to pay. Them's the rules and they are following the rules. I think the Apple thing is still ongoing. The EU have ordered them to pay it to Ireland, but the Irish don't want to force Apple to pay it ! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 13:18:43 GMT
And that would be false accounting. But they do employ inter company charges, to allocate as much profit as legally possible to the lowest tax regime. It's been happening for years. On the false accounting charge, Apple were found guilty of this in Ireland, lost their appeal and were ordered to pay €17 billion (as best I recall) to the Government in Dublin. Not sure if this has happened yet. As I said, I tried to keep it simple, but in effect, that is what Starbuck's are doing. No profit in the UK means no tax to pay. Them's the rules and they are following the rules. I think the Apple thing is still ongoing. The EU have ordered them to pay it to Ireland, but the Irish don't want to force Apple to pay it ! Fair enough. The point about the Apple case is that the EU are onto it. I am not surprised that the Irish government dont want to upset Apple, given the investment they have made and the impact on employment and supplier industries in Ireland. A fact which lends weight to your free cash flow argument. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 13:26:46 GMT
I do know of one major company that you would instantly recognise as being a famous German company that is actually registered in Holland. The other factor with large companies paying corporation tax here is this argument. If the companies have more money to invest and spend (instead of paying Corporation Tax) then they can afford to pay their workers more, and hence, those workers earning more will pay more in personal tax. When you are literally talking about hundreds of thousands of workers this does make some sense. There is no doubt that workers at companies like Mercedes, BMW and VW are paid well above the normal, and they also receive many additional benefits by working for those companies. It also means that the company has more money to invest in things like R&D, which helps keep them ahead of their competitors and therefore repeating the cycle of success (hopefully!). Ok. So not many off the top of your head. I get the argument on free cash flow leads to investment. Not convinced about higher wages. I guess the problem is that this argument has led to a disproportionate shift in profit from the non owners of capital to those that do. That is Dividend and Capital Growth over employee incomes. To be fair, getting a job at one of these companies is considered a plum posting ! They do pay well. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 13:55:48 GMT
Companies like Mercedes, BMW and VW pay next to nothing in Corporation Tax. The belief is that they provide hundreds of thousands of jobs and bring wealth and capital into the country. Over the years, they have lobbied the government to accept the fact they shouldn't pay Corporation Tax, and the politicians have agreed with them. It is the same with many other large German companies. Doesn't that mean that their employees pay the appropriate personal tax whilst as a Corporation they walk away paying next to nothing? It's not right, it really isn't. When you think of the billions these Companies are worth, to pay the appropriate tax and what that could do for those in need, it's sickening that they'd rather get richer than most could possibly imagine, than help. It’s not even like there is any trickle down to those employees from the tax saving- it will just go in the shareholders back pocket and I’ll bet the shareholders aren’t short of a bob or two to start with. To add, it looks like there is in fact a whole new genre of non-fiction springing up about all this- I’ve started reading Moneyland and found that are a number of books have been written in recent years all covering the same subject: the tricks the rich pull to avoid tax. I can’t speak for the others but moneyland is a bloody good, if depressing, read so far. So much chicanery at the tax dodgers disposal...but only if you have the money to afford the entry fee of course (*eye-f**ks JRM*). |
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Post by baggins on Nov 7, 2019 14:29:17 GMT
Doesn't that mean that their employees pay the appropriate personal tax whilst as a Corporation they walk away paying next to nothing? It's not right, it really isn't. When you think of the billions these Companies are worth, to pay the appropriate tax and what that could do for those in need, it's sickening that they'd rather get richer than most could possibly imagine, than help. It’s not even like there is any trickle down to those employees from the tax saving- it will just go in the shareholders back pocket and I’ll bet the shareholders aren’t short of a bob or two to start with. To add, it looks like there is in fact a whole new genre of non-fiction springing up about all this- I’ve started reading Moneyland and found that are a number of books have been written in recent years all covering the same subject: the tricks the rich pull to avoid tax. I can’t speak for the others but moneyland is a bloody good, if depressing, read so far. So much chicanery at the tax dodgers disposal...but only if you have the money to afford the entry fee of course (*eye-f**ks JRM*). And the people vote for Billionaire Boris Johnson? The lying toe rag who really, really couldn't give a sh** about you. Unbelievable. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 16:43:28 GMT
It’s not even like there is any trickle down to those employees from the tax saving- it will just go in the shareholders back pocket and I’ll bet the shareholders aren’t short of a bob or two to start with. To add, it looks like there is in fact a whole new genre of non-fiction springing up about all this- I’ve started reading Moneyland and found that are a number of books have been written in recent years all covering the same subject: the tricks the rich pull to avoid tax. I can’t speak for the others but moneyland is a bloody good, if depressing, read so far. So much chicanery at the tax dodgers disposal...but only if you have the money to afford the entry fee of course (*eye-f**ks JRM*). And the people vote for Billionaire Boris Johnson? The lying toe rag who really, really couldn't give a sh** about you. Unbelievable. I would be surprised if anyone truly believed that Boris does give a sh** about anyone other than himself. The ‘issue’ (for some it’s not an issue) is that his lack of altruism lines up with the lack of altruism in the people who vote for him. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 17:23:06 GMT
And the people vote for Billionaire Boris Johnson? The lying toe rag who really, really couldn't give a sh** about you. Unbelievable. I would be surprised if anyone truly believed that Boris does give a sh** about anyone other than himself. The ‘issue’ (for some it’s not an issue) is that his lack of altruism lines up with the lack of altruism in the people who vote for him. For those of us lined up against Johnson, The Tories and the loonies in the Brexit Party, we cannot use words like "altruism" It opens a can of worms, and leads to diversion tactics. We have to fight on their record, on their plans, on their abject duplicity. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 17:32:59 GMT
Sadly not. I called it. It's just so weak. We all have to live in this society and most of us want to improve it though we have different ideas on how. His argument is basically go and live in the woods then. If we all did that society would just decay obviously. I like calling out rank hypocrisy. It gets this reaction because it touches a nerve. |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Nov 7, 2019 17:41:43 GMT
Sadly not. I called it. It's just so weak. We all have to live in this society and most of us want to improve it though we have different ideas on how. His argument is basically go and live in the woods then. If we all did that society would just decay obviously. I like calling out rank hypocrisy. It gets this reaction because it touches a nerve. I pay my tax no hypocrisy here. You get points for being a tryhard but your argument was so weak I didnt really give it much thought to be honest sorry to burst your bubble if you were salivating at the thought of calling me out and embarrassing me. I have a phone therefore Samsung shouldn't be criticised for not paying enough corporation tax - inspired. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 18:12:43 GMT
Sadly not. I called it. It's just so weak. We all have to live in this society and most of us want to improve it though we have different ideas on how. His argument is basically go and live in the woods then. If we all did that society would just decay obviously. I like calling out rank hypocrisy. It gets this reaction because it touches a nerve. I fear you are deluded |
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Nov 7, 2019 18:26:33 GMT
Back to topic I was interested to read today that Javids strategy is spend spend spend (or at least to say they will). I wonder whether anyone who criticised labour policy - 'wheres the money going to come from, it's all fantasy' feels similarly about Javids plans given their similarity.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 19:06:06 GMT
Back to topic I was interested to read today that Javids strategy is spend spend spend (or at least to say they will). I wonder whether anyone who criticised labour policy - 'wheres the money going to come from, it's all fantasy' feels similarly about Javids plans given their similarity. The Tories are caught with their pants down. Austerity home to roost. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2019 23:07:19 GMT
Jeez that Scottish Tory on Question Time is so dead behind the eyes it’s unreal. Like she’s some kind of robot on autopilot growling her mantra about how awful Corbyn is. I had to check the date to make sure Halloween was last Thursday. She’s getting a hell of a shoeing from the panellists and the audience though so it.’s heartening to see that there is one part of the land that isn’t rolling over for them
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Post by peterparker on Nov 8, 2019 16:04:09 GMT
Meet Home Office minister, Victoria Atkins, she has not the faintest idea of what is going on. Beyond the Thick Of It...... t.co/VFuedNSdeh |
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 8, 2019 17:25:36 GMT
Meet Home Office minister, Victoria Atkins, she has not the faintest idea of what is going on. Beyond the Thick Of It...... t.co/VFuedNSdeh Seems our PM is also badly briefed on certain things, such as the GB/NI paperwork situation. Boris ssying different things to different audiences, who'd have thought it!! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 17:59:07 GMT
Meet Home Office minister, Victoria Atkins, she has not the faintest idea of what is going on. Beyond the Thick Of It...... t.co/VFuedNSdeh Seems our PM is also badly briefed on certain things, such as the GB/NI paperwork situation. Boris ssying different things to different audiences, who'd have thought it!! A brilliant take down of the buffoon in this piece. Lurching and rambling, Boris Johnson is in charge. But he’s lost control flip.it/1f3bZT |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 18:15:55 GMT
Tell em Elizabeth Elizabeth Warren helps out 'confused' billionaires with new tax calculator flip.it/T4gAej |
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