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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 9:58:07 GMT
Boris squirming like a worm when asked “how many Russian oligarchs donate to the Conservative party”. Cleverly last night refusing to rule that the Tories had offered peerages to Brexit party candidates. Honestly, regardless of party it makes me feel sick the idea of foreign millionaires supporting political parties in the UK, particularly Russian ones. What about a certain Mr Soros and the role he is playing in the background. Gina Miller anyone? Don't forget, it has now been proven that Russia funded groups like CND, Trades Unions. Jack Jones, one of the most famous Trade Unions Leaders, was paid by Russia. Richard Branson funds Remain groups. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 10:07:18 GMT
Boris squirming like a worm when asked “how many Russian oligarchs donate to the Conservative party”. Cleverly last night refusing to rule that the Tories had offered peerages to Brexit party candidates. Honestly, regardless of party it makes me feel sick the idea of foreign millionaires supporting political parties in the UK, particularly Russian ones. What about a certain Mr Soros and the role he is playing in the background. Gina Miller anyone? Don't forget, it has now been proven that Russia funded groups like CND, Trades Unions. Jack Jones, one of the most famous Trade Unions Leaders, was paid by Russia. Richard Branson funds Remain groups. If you read my post again instead of getting so defensive you will see I said “regardless of party”  But with particular regard to the Russians they will support anyone who furthers their aims of sowing discord in the west. To that extent you can be damn well sure where Putin’s money is being funnelled- and it isn’t to any party that will offer a Brexit reprieve. I bet Putin couldn’t believe his luck when the Brexit verdict was received in Moscow... |
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Post by William Wilson on Nov 15, 2019 10:25:50 GMT
Yes totally. This idea of bringing a consumer facility into public ownership is stark raving bonkers. Concentrate on the necessities, Health, Housing & Education. The rest takes care of itself. Totally agree. Government should stick to the essentials like Education, Health, Housing & Security. I don`t see why a Corbyn administration should be mutually exclusive to the UK`s security. I think Hamas will do a fine job of defending us. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 15:22:27 GMT
It gets worse. It's not just a chunk of BT they want. They also want chunks of Sky, Virgin and TalkTalk.
"Asked what would happen to firms like Virgin Media, Sky and TalkTalk - which have invested large sums in broadband provision - Mr McDonnell suggested they would be nationalised if they did not bow to the new arrangements.
Mr McDonnell said BT shareholders would be given government bonds in return for OpenReach being nationalised - with Parliament setting the price.
When it was pointed out that government bonds currently have a 2 per cent return rather than the 7% return for BT shares, he said they were more stable.
'We will come to an agreement with them. It will either be an agreement of access arrangements, or working alongside us, or yes if necessary they can then come within the ambit of British Broadband,' he said.
'I think we can come to an agreement, but if necessary - they are only 10 per cent of the market.'
Mr McDonnell made clear that would also involve Parliament setting the price and swapping shares for government bonds.
'Yes, if necessary there will be elements of compensation, but that will be subject to negotiation,' he said. "
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 15:42:26 GMT
It gets worse. It's not just a chunk of BT they want. They also want chunks of Sky, Virgin and TalkTalk. "Asked what would happen to firms like Virgin Media, Sky and TalkTalk - which have invested large sums in broadband provision - Mr McDonnell suggested they would be nationalised if they did not bow to the new arrangements. Mr McDonnell said BT shareholders would be given government bonds in return for OpenReach being nationalised - with Parliament setting the price. When it was pointed out that government bonds currently have a 2 per cent return rather than the 7% return for BT shares, he said they were more stable. 'We will come to an agreement with them. It will either be an agreement of access arrangements, or working alongside us, or yes if necessary they can then come within the ambit of British Broadband,' he said. 'I think we can come to an agreement, but if necessary - they are only 10 per cent of the market.' Mr McDonnell made clear that would also involve Parliament setting the price and swapping shares for government bonds. 'Yes, if necessary there will be elements of compensation, but that will be subject to negotiation,' he said. " I had the misfortune to listen to that whole interview. It was a shambolic presentation of what appears to be a rushed out policy, poorly considered, formulated by one of the 6th Form policy advisors. Embarrassing |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 15:53:10 GMT
Meanwhile, the other absolute plank, Boris Johnson, cannot confirm how many children he has, and dont ask who he takes responsibility for. "What is regarded as good-for-nothing and disgraceful and evidence of unforgivable moral turpitude in working-class people is regarded as winsome and excusable and even glamorously rakish in chaps like Boris Johnson. " Yeah right, the word is c***t The wheels on the Boris bus go round and round ... and then come off? flip.it/xalrn8 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 16:00:13 GMT
It gets worse. It's not just a chunk of BT they want. They also want chunks of Sky, Virgin and TalkTalk. "Asked what would happen to firms like Virgin Media, Sky and TalkTalk - which have invested large sums in broadband provision - Mr McDonnell suggested they would be nationalised if they did not bow to the new arrangements. Mr McDonnell said BT shareholders would be given government bonds in return for OpenReach being nationalised - with Parliament setting the price. When it was pointed out that government bonds currently have a 2 per cent return rather than the 7% return for BT shares, he said they were more stable. 'We will come to an agreement with them. It will either be an agreement of access arrangements, or working alongside us, or yes if necessary they can then come within the ambit of British Broadband,' he said. 'I think we can come to an agreement, but if necessary - they are only 10 per cent of the market.' Mr McDonnell made clear that would also involve Parliament setting the price and swapping shares for government bonds. 'Yes, if necessary there will be elements of compensation, but that will be subject to negotiation,' he said. " I had the misfortune to listen to that whole interview. It was a shambolic presentation of what appears to be a rushed out policy, poorly considered, formulated by one of the 6th Form policy advisors. Embarrassing Give it a week and Labour will start talking about their Financial Transaction Tax. |
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craggo
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Post by craggo on Nov 15, 2019 17:05:25 GMT
Our cards came this morning(although you do not need them when you go to the polling station). My Daughter can vote for the 1st time. I have given her a choice of who she can vote for, Lib Dems or Lib Dems. Cross goes anywhere else i will be sending her to Coventry.
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Post by aghast on Nov 15, 2019 18:26:58 GMT
I think it's a very good idea.
BT was forced by the government to spilt into two parts a few years ago. BT and BT Openreach.
BT sells phone calls and services and broadband packages.
BTOR controls the whole phone network across the country, including every phone line into everyone's house for calls and broadband.
BTOR was charging competitors like TalkTalk exorbitant fees to use their network, which had been paid for by the taxpayers anyway when BT was part of the Post Office.
So the govt made BT spilt itself in two, and now BTOR charges everyone equally, including TalkTalk and BT itself.
But if we are to have fast fibre broadband like they have in France, Japan, Germany and South Korea, we have to leave it up to BTOR to decide if and when they will install fibre optic cables to every home in the UK.
And BTOR say if they do decide to do it, the government will have to pay, because they can't afford it.
So we haggle with them for years, or just nationalise them and get on with it.
Every shareholder will be given government bonds worth what they now have in BTOR shares. Bonds are very safe but don't rocket up in value like shares. Not do they plummet.
So yes.
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Post by gashead1981 on Nov 15, 2019 18:40:49 GMT
I’ll post my comment from the FM thread.
Unfortunately that's how you win elections. Promise a bunch of free stuff to people who dont think it costs in the long run and probably can’t afford it to begin with.
You only have to cast your minds to 06-08 and the complete mess Brown made by spending everything he didn’t have and bankrupted then country. Corbyn has exactly the same motto and people surely can’t be dumb enough to fall for that again. But I can also see why they wouldn’t vote for BJ
To add some meat to the bones of what I think. There is no way on this planet labour would raise enough through taxation to pay for free broadband. In effect the households earning above £30k per year will effectively pay for the ones who don’t to have free net. Even though they will be warning &£15 per hour flipping burgers in McDs.
I hate the thought of another nanny state labour government which cost the country, and myself personal employment at the last recession. I dug in and went self employed and worked damn hard over the last 10 years to make a success of it. To have to contribute towards others staying at home off the back of my hard work really annoys me. The fact they won’t accept the democratic vote on brexit means more political wrangling and a fluctuating market.
Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing about the Tories I much like either, but the fact they want to crack on and get at least Brexit and the NHS going again is the most relevant campaign to start with IMO, not arsing about with freebies that cant be paid for.
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Post by gashead1981 on Nov 15, 2019 18:45:48 GMT
Our cards came this morning(although you do not need them when you go to the polling station). My Daughter can vote for the 1st time. I have given her a choice of who she can vote for, Lib Dems or Lib Dems. Cross goes anywhere else i will be sending her to Coventry. The irony of that is the Liberal “Democrat’s” aren’t democratic at all. They want to stop Brexit, which needs to be respected, remainer or not (I prefer to remain, but have accepted that democracy says we leave). Their time as part of the last hung parliament proved that they are nothing but pie in the sky idealists that were found out by their shattering loss 5 years later almost into obscurity. The Brexit vote is something that actually have brought them back from the brink as they have just become the Hoover for a bunch of sour grape remainers who won’t serve under Boris. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 19:35:56 GMT
I think it's a very good idea. BT was forced by the government to spilt into two parts a few years ago. BT and BT Openreach. BT sells phone calls and services and broadband packages. BTOR controls the whole phone network across the country, including every phone line into everyone's house for calls and broadband. BTOR was charging competitors like TalkTalk exorbitant fees to use their network, which had been paid for by the taxpayers anyway when BT was part of the Post Office. So the govt made BT spilt itself in two, and now BTOR charges everyone equally, including TalkTalk and BT itself. But if we are to have fast fibre broadband like they have in France, Japan, Germany and South Korea, we have to leave it up to BTOR to decide if and when they will install fibre optic cables to every home in the UK. And BTOR say if they do decide to do it, the government will have to pay, because they can't afford it. So we haggle with them for years, or just nationalise them and get on with it. Every shareholder will be given government bonds worth what they now have in BTOR shares. Bonds are very safe but don't rocket up in value like shares. Not do they plummet. So yes. Do you expect Pension Funds to accept Government Bonds from a Labour Government? With the amount of borrowing that Labour propose, those Bonds will be worthless. If this new Government run company, compiled of bits from BT, Virgin, Talk Talk and Sky is to give away Broadband for free, how will this company be financed if they are giving away their product? After Labour steal these bits from private businesses, who will ever want to invest in the UK when your business could be taken away from you at any point? On the list so far, Water, Power Grid, Railways, Royal Mail and chunks of BT, Virgin, Sky and Talk Talk. What next, British Airways, the Ports, Car Manufacturers ? Oh, and Germany certainly does not have fast fibre broadband, or if they do it hasn't reached my gaff ! and of course, the main question. Do you really think we will still be using Broadband in 10 years time? |
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Post by gashead1981 on Nov 15, 2019 20:36:39 GMT
I think it's a very good idea. BT was forced by the government to spilt into two parts a few years ago. BT and BT Openreach. BT sells phone calls and services and broadband packages. BTOR controls the whole phone network across the country, including every phone line into everyone's house for calls and broadband. BTOR was charging competitors like TalkTalk exorbitant fees to use their network, which had been paid for by the taxpayers anyway when BT was part of the Post Office. So the govt made BT spilt itself in two, and now BTOR charges everyone equally, including TalkTalk and BT itself. But if we are to have fast fibre broadband like they have in France, Japan, Germany and South Korea, we have to leave it up to BTOR to decide if and when they will install fibre optic cables to every home in the UK. And BTOR say if they do decide to do it, the government will have to pay, because they can't afford it. So we haggle with them for years, or just nationalise them and get on with it. Every shareholder will be given government bonds worth what they now have in BTOR shares. Bonds are very safe but don't rocket up in value like shares. Not do they plummet. So yes. Do you expect Pension Funds to accept Government Bonds from a Labour Government? With the amount of borrowing that Labour propose, those Bonds will be worthless. If this new Government run company, compiled of bits from BT, Virgin, Talk Talk and Sky is to give away Broadband for free, how will this company be financed if they are giving away their product? After Labour steal these bits from private businesses, who will ever want to invest in the UK when your business could be taken away from you at any point? On the list so far, Water, Power Grid, Railways, Royal Mail and chunks of BT, Virgin, Sky and Talk Talk. What next, British Airways, the Ports, Car Manufacturers ? Oh, and Germany certainly does not have fast fibre broadband, or if they do it hasn't reached my gaff ! and of course, the main question. Do you really think we will still be using Broadband in 10 years time? All good counter arguments. McDonald says that it’s based on a model roles out in Korea. Well it was easier to do in Korea because by the time the internet has actually reached parts of Korea and had to be rigged up, fibre was in front of copper wire anyway. Fibre optics have been used in place of copper in cars for 15 years + and that tech has rolled out of all sorts of IT platforms previously so when it comes to new install, you wouldn’t install an outdated method. I don’t know this for sure but I’m willing to bet the reason why there is so much nationalisation in Korea is because it was a part fund by the government to get companies to expand into their country, perhaps where phones and telecommunications has never been before. 5G is the next big thing. It’s power to your smart phone and the ever decreasing cost of mobile data will mean that very soon, home broadband will become mostly like your landline at home. Mostly obsolete. |
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Post by aghast on Nov 15, 2019 23:11:42 GMT
Nationalisation is a bit of a dirty word nowadays and people leap on it like it's a betrayal of the free market, and doomed to fail.
Tell that to the shareholders of Lloyds TSB and the RBS, who were effectively nationalised and saved in the process.
And ask rail users if they'd rather return to having the privateers of Railtrack in charge of the network instead of the nationalised Network Rail, which, for all its faults, has demonstrated massive improvements in investment, quality, and safety.
And when will we stop blaming Gordon Brown for the global financial crash?
This is a sort of urban myth mantra trotted out by so many people.
It was caused by the US deregulation of banking, which most other Western economies felt they had to follow in order to keep up, a move initiated in the UK by a Tory government, and, most importantly, by the directors of Western banks so they could line their already bulging wallets.
Whatever Brown did to allow Northern Rock to fail is totally irrelevant to employees of Lehman Brothers, and indeed the whole economies of Greece, Spain, Italy and several others.
He should be credited (and is by many respected economists and political commentators) for saving the UK from the worst of the economic sh1tstorm that hit Europe subsequently.
Astonishing to me how so many people still lap up this anti-Brown sh1t as if it had any credibility at all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2019 4:21:12 GMT
It gets worse. It's not just a chunk of BT they want. They also want chunks of Sky, Virgin and TalkTalk. "Asked what would happen to firms like Virgin Media, Sky and TalkTalk - which have invested large sums in broadband provision - Mr McDonnell suggested they would be nationalised if they did not bow to the new arrangements. Mr McDonnell said BT shareholders would be given government bonds in return for OpenReach being nationalised - with Parliament setting the price. When it was pointed out that government bonds currently have a 2 per cent return rather than the 7% return for BT shares, he said they were more stable. 'We will come to an agreement with them. It will either be an agreement of access arrangements, or working alongside us, or yes if necessary they can then come within the ambit of British Broadband,' he said. 'I think we can come to an agreement, but if necessary - they are only 10 per cent of the market.' Mr McDonnell made clear that would also involve Parliament setting the price and swapping shares for government bonds. 'Yes, if necessary there will be elements of compensation, but that will be subject to negotiation,' he said. " Eeeh I dunno, we've had 10 years of no-fun Tory rule full of austerity and rising inequality. If the whole country has to go to hell in a handbasket I'd rather it happened under crackpot policies like these that take everyone down with them rather death by a thousand cuts Brexit where the economy shrinks but the Conservative hardcore live to fight another day and do quite alright out of it. Basically I'd like to see something other than extreme right wing free market economics just to see how it pans out, for better or worse. But then, I don't have a lot to lose. |
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Post by William Wilson on Nov 16, 2019 7:45:23 GMT
It gets worse. It's not just a chunk of BT they want. They also want chunks of Sky, Virgin and TalkTalk. "Asked what would happen to firms like Virgin Media, Sky and TalkTalk - which have invested large sums in broadband provision - Mr McDonnell suggested they would be nationalised if they did not bow to the new arrangements. Mr McDonnell said BT shareholders would be given government bonds in return for OpenReach being nationalised - with Parliament setting the price. When it was pointed out that government bonds currently have a 2 per cent return rather than the 7% return for BT shares, he said they were more stable. 'We will come to an agreement with them. It will either be an agreement of access arrangements, or working alongside us, or yes if necessary they can then come within the ambit of British Broadband,' he said. 'I think we can come to an agreement, but if necessary - they are only 10 per cent of the market.' Mr McDonnell made clear that would also involve Parliament setting the price and swapping shares for government bonds. 'Yes, if necessary there will be elements of compensation, but that will be subject to negotiation,' he said. " Eeeh I dunno, we've had 10 years of no-fun Tory rule full of austerity and rising inequality. If the whole country has to go to hell in a handbasket I'd rather it happened under crackpot policies like these that take everyone down with them rather death by a thousand cuts Brexit where the economy shrinks but the Conservative hardcore live to fight another day and do quite alright out of it. Basically I'd like to see something other than extreme right wing free market economics just to see how it pans out, for better or worse. But then, I don't have a lot to lose. I don`t agree with anything you`ve written. But, hell, I have to admire your candour. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2019 8:33:25 GMT
Eeeh I dunno, we've had 10 years of no-fun Tory rule full of austerity and rising inequality. If the whole country has to go to hell in a handbasket I'd rather it happened under crackpot policies like these that take everyone down with them rather death by a thousand cuts Brexit where the economy shrinks but the Conservative hardcore live to fight another day and do quite alright out of it. Basically I'd like to see something other than extreme right wing free market economics just to see how it pans out, for better or worse. But then, I don't have a lot to lose. I don`t agree with anything you`ve written. But, hell, I have to admire your candour. Whatever the election pledge, by whichever party, the current national debt of some £1.4trillion, 84% of GDP, cannot be ignored. Just a reminder, this has nearly doubled since 2010. I laughed this morning, Michael Gove, he who sounds more demented by the day, was promising to plant 30,000 trees every year. When the R4 interviewer pointed out his party made a similar commitment in 2015 and not got anywhere near their then promised target, he blamed, wait for it...the EU and CAP. FFS, are these people mad? (No need to answer) |
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Post by gasandelectricity on Nov 16, 2019 9:24:06 GMT
I’d have been inclined to vote for any of the major parties this time around but I feel I have to go for the party which keeps Corbyn out. Even if that wasn’t the case, and I just felt like Labour were a poor choice, I probably wouldn’t go Lib Dem as I believe it would be wrong to cancel brexit without the people getting to choose once more (I voted remain, but that’s marginally on balance - you can rip up the referendum yes but it’s the wrong thing to do)
It’s the spending commitments and nationalisation strategy which scares the life out of me. The Conservatives have taken hard wrap for the cuts they had to make but we’d be in a much worse state if they hadn’t been done, as we simply couldn’t afford it after the financial crash. Even the last Labour administration recognised that a smaller state (at least in terms of ownership of industries) made sense and didn’t try to reverse it.
Having done a degree in Economics going back a decade ago, and travelling around Europe since, you can clearly see that governments have been moving more and more towards private ownership and operation of industries. Look at Central and Eastern Europe. They’re shunning the ways of old and flourishing from it. Corbyn and McDonnell want to take us back to this. It’s scary scary stuff.
On Energy, I’ve worked substantially in this industry and it’s understood that when you go on uSwitch and pick the cheapest tariff for you that supplier is supplying it to you at a loss. And there are many mechanisms now to ensure those that don’t switch don’t overpay. So rate wise we’d end up paying more, and then we have to nationalise the industry. Then there’s no money in the bank so borrowing has to be raised. We end up paying three times, similar for the mad broadband pledge.
The clearest argument against this though is whilst the private sector appears to make a pigs war of this, do you really trust those lot in Parliament to run your broadband services and supply your energy?
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 16, 2019 9:41:03 GMT
Brexit Party's Ben Habib was on Sky News earlier, stated that Boris' WA was worse than remaining.
He can't vote Brexit Party as the candidate was withdrawn so may spoil the ballot.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 16, 2019 9:44:48 GMT
I’d have been inclined to vote for any of the major parties this time around but I feel I have to go for the party which keeps Corbyn out. Even if that wasn’t the case, and I just felt like Labour were a poor choice, I probably wouldn’t go Lib Dem as I believe it would be wrong to cancel brexit without the people getting to choose once more (I voted remain, but that’s marginally on balance - you can rip up the referendum yes but it’s the wrong thing to do) It’s the spending commitments and nationalisation strategy which scares the life out of me. The Conservatives have taken hard wrap for the cuts they had to make but we’d be in a much worse state if they hadn’t been done, as we simply couldn’t afford it after the financial crash. Even the last Labour administration recognised that a smaller state (at least in terms of ownership of industries) made sense and didn’t try to reverse it. Having done a degree in Economics going back a decade ago, and travelling around Europe since, you can clearly see that governments have been moving more and more towards private ownership and operation of industries. Look at Central and Eastern Europe. They’re shunning the ways of old and flourishing from it. Corbyn and McDonnell want to take us back to this. It’s scary scary stuff. On Energy, I’ve worked substantially in this industry and it’s understood that when you go on uSwitch and pick the cheapest tariff for you that supplier is supplying it to you at a loss. And there are many mechanisms now to ensure those that don’t switch don’t overpay. So rate wise we’d end up paying more, and then we have to nationalise the industry. Then there’s no money in the bank so borrowing has to be raised. We end up paying three times, similar for the mad broadband pledge. The clearest argument against this though is whilst the private sector appears to make a pigs war of this, do you really trust those lot in Parliament to run your broadband services and supply your energy? Neither Labour or the Lib Dems will get a majority and I can't see a coalition lasting more than a year or so. Both parties and the SNP will neutralise the excessives of each other so I suspect any tactical voting could be done 'reletively' safely. |
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