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Post by swissgas on Apr 28, 2020 21:50:48 GMT
Dwane Colony Ltd, which owns the land at Almondsbury, is a completely separate company from Dwane Sports Ltd. If Dwane Colony Ltd was classed as part of the group which comprises Bristol Rovers Football Club Ltd and Bristol Rovers 1883 Ltd it would be included in the group consolidated accounts but it is only mentioned in the section for transactions with related parties. You must decide whether, in terms of loyalty, your priority is with Bristol Rovers Football Club and Bristol Rovers 1883 Ltd, Dwane Sports Ltd, Dwane Colony Ltd or Wael Al-Qadi. I just think that at a difficult time, when supporters are being asked to help the club by buying season tickets in advance, it does not seem right that Dwane Colony Ltd have apparently owed Bristol Rovers a substantial sum of money for a very long time. And because that money has not been paid over to them Bristol Rovers are having to borrow more money from Dwane Sports Ltd who are charging interest on it. Perhaps Wael could reassure Gasheads by announcing that all monies owed to Bristol Rovers by Dwane Colony Ltd have now been paid. Again with deliberate obfuscation to try to muddy the point and repeat your headlines. The point made wasn't that they de facto form part of the same group was it? As well you know. The point made was about common ownership. As well you know. The point made was that the payments made were mutually beneficial to those commonly owned entities by dint of that common ownership. As well you know. You did your LBC presenter, Nick Ferrari bit and shouted about interest being charged by what is effectively, whether or not it in fact is, subsidiary to it's parent. Like I said; either you're lying about being an accountant or you're posting in bad faith. Maybe both, who knows. I don't have to decide about any loyalties at all. That's a clear fallacy. The football club has owners that service it's debt, like 90% of all other football clubs. That doesn't create some imaginary turf war just because you and your mates have fantasised that it does. Still doesn't seem right though does it.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Apr 29, 2020 6:45:36 GMT
Again with deliberate obfuscation to try to muddy the point and repeat your headlines. The point made wasn't that they de facto form part of the same group was it? As well you know. The point made was about common ownership. As well you know. The point made was that the payments made were mutually beneficial to those commonly owned entities by dint of that common ownership. As well you know. You did your LBC presenter, Nick Ferrari bit and shouted about interest being charged by what is effectively, whether or not it in fact is, subsidiary to it's parent. Like I said; either you're lying about being an accountant or you're posting in bad faith. Maybe both, who knows. I don't have to decide about any loyalties at all. That's a clear fallacy. The football club has owners that service it's debt, like 90% of all other football clubs. That doesn't create some imaginary turf war just because you and your mates have fantasised that it does. Still doesn't seem right though does it. So LJG was right then.
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Post by peterparker on Apr 29, 2020 6:57:03 GMT
Still doesn't seem right though does it. So LJG was right then. Its muddying the waters by Swiss. Dwane own everything. Dwane fund everything, Dwane can sell any component aspect and if they did all things would be taken into consideration Edit I am not saying Dwane are good owners, but to pretend they are doing something dodgy or shafting the football club is disingenuous Its no different to the Bristol Sport model in theory
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Apr 29, 2020 7:03:08 GMT
Its muddying the waters by Swiss. Dwane own everything. Dwane fund everything, Dwane can sell any component aspect and if they did all things would be taken into consideration That's a shame, I normally have a lot of time for him but this kind of thing is the sort of stuff GI normally does
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Post by blueridge on Apr 29, 2020 7:43:23 GMT
Its muddying the waters by Swiss. Dwane own everything. Dwane fund everything, Dwane can sell any component aspect and if they did all things would be taken into consideration Edit I am not saying Dwane our good owners, but to pretend they are doing something dodgy or shafting the football club is disingenuous Its no different to the Bristol Sport model in theory How do you know they’re not doing something dodgy - they’ve managed to put this club to over £20m in debt and rising - and for what- tangibly? They’re a lot cleverer than you and I. They fund everything, as you put it, at a price - yes or no? If it hadn’t of been for ‘the miracle of Couglan’ this season and last, we would be back or heading back to where we started when they took over, over four years ago and in a much worse place financially - in fact probably crippled as a Club. Something doesn’t stack up for me.
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Post by peterparker on Apr 29, 2020 8:02:06 GMT
Its muddying the waters by Swiss. Dwane own everything. Dwane fund everything, Dwane can sell any component aspect and if they did all things would be taken into consideration Edit I am not saying Dwane our good owners, but to pretend they are doing something dodgy or shafting the football club is disingenuous Its no different to the Bristol Sport model in theory How do you know they’re not doing something dodgy - they’ve managed to put this club to over £20m in debt and rising - and for what- tangibly? They’re a lot cleverer than you and I. They fund everything, as you put it, at a price - yes or no? If it hadn’t of been for ‘the miracle of Couglan’ this season and last, we would be back or heading back to where we started when they took over, over four years ago and in a much worse place financially - in fact probably crippled as a Club. Something doesn’t stack up for me. Of course I can't say for certain they aren't doing dodgy and as I have said I am not saying they are perfect owners, but trying to paint a common business practice as something it isn't, is disingenuous. If you refer to 'at a price' as in the interest accrued, than yes and no. That interest is only a reality if or when it is taken into consideration in any potential sale of 1883 ltd ltd. Currently we owe it. Tomorrow maybe we won't.
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 29, 2020 9:32:43 GMT
Its muddying the waters by Swiss. Dwane own everything. Dwane fund everything, Dwane can sell any component aspect and if they did all things would be taken into consideration That's a shame, I normally have a lot of time for him but this kind of thing is the sort of stuff GI normally does If it’s true! Mmmm. Just because a few have questioned swiss does that mean it will pass into Gaschat history as the truth? He’s been a pretty good barometer of what’s been happening financially with us for a few years. Or do I take it he’s the new scapegoat to have ago at? I guess I’ll wait and see before condemning someone. UTG!
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Apr 29, 2020 9:40:13 GMT
That's a shame, I normally have a lot of time for him but this kind of thing is the sort of stuff GI normally does If it’s true! Mmmm. Just because a few have questioned swiss does that mean it will pass into Gaschat history as the truth? He’s been a pretty good barometer of what’s been happening financially with us for a few years. Or do I take it he’s the new scapegoat to have ago at? I guess I’ll wait and see before condemning someone. UTG! Yes I totally agree. He has always offered a very well reasoned and balanced opposition. I would not want to see him start being a bit naughty in how he presents stuff because I dont want him to undermine himself as others have on both sides of the argument. Reasoned debate and contributors are a scarce commodity!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2020 10:03:18 GMT
Interesting thread, I've learnt a new word - "obfuscate"
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Post by peterparker on Apr 29, 2020 10:05:29 GMT
That's a shame, I normally have a lot of time for him but this kind of thing is the sort of stuff GI normally does If it’s true! Mmmm. Just because a few have questioned swiss does that mean it will pass into Gaschat history as the truth? He’s been a pretty good barometer of what’s been happening financially with us for a few years. Or do I take it he’s the new scapegoat to have ago at? I guess I’ll wait and see before condemning someone. UTG! I can't prove that Dwane is dodgy, just as Swiss can't prove they are. Now I am not saying Swiss is saying they are, but his writing may imply to a lesser accounts minded person that Dwane are a bit suspect. As they say Knowledge is power, and if people have treated Swiss' opinion with respect in the past, than it easy to push them to a preferred way of thinking (and I am not saying he is doing that) I and LJG have counter-pointed Swiss. Some of it may go over people heads, some people may take Swiss' words as ' The Truth', but it is good to have more than one interpretation out there. Nothing is black and white and nothing should go unchecked
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Post by stuart1974 on Apr 29, 2020 10:24:12 GMT
If it’s true! Mmmm. Just because a few have questioned swiss does that mean it will pass into Gaschat history as the truth? He’s been a pretty good barometer of what’s been happening financially with us for a few years. Or do I take it he’s the new scapegoat to have ago at? I guess I’ll wait and see before condemning someone. UTG! I can't prove that Dwane is dodgy, just as Swiss can't prove they are. Now I am not saying Swiss is saying they are, but his writing may imply to a lesser accounts minded person that Dwane are a bit suspect. As they say Knowledge is power, and if people have treated Swiss' opinion with respect in the past, than it easy to push them to a preferred way of thinking (and I am not saying he is doing that) I and LJG have counter-pointed Swiss. Some of it may go over people heads, some people may take Swiss' words as ' The Truth', but it is good to have more than one interpretation out there. Nothing is black and white and nothing should go unchecked Swiss has had concerns about DS since at least the first set of post al-Qadi takeover accounts. While he has pointed out some concerns, I have thought his posts have been more critical rather than a critique. We've had a difference of opinion with some of the comments even as far back as then, not because of interpretation but I felt the analysis was not balanced as well as it should be.
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Post by spiess1 on Apr 29, 2020 10:57:48 GMT
Pleased that more people are stating their doubts about oft-repeated 'interested' negativity....been obvious for a few years.
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Post by fanatical on Apr 29, 2020 13:22:28 GMT
How can we be paying £70K for "maintenance" at The Colony when it's basically just an unkept field behind a locked gate and a fence? Did we ever find out if that office apparently costing us £250K ever appeared on the accounts/actually existed? The owners didn’t realise that because Dwane was an offshore company and couldn’t reclaim VAT. Bristol Rovers are now paying the bills so that VAT can be reclaimed. I presume that was approved by the VAT authorities?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2020 13:37:17 GMT
The owners didn’t realise that because Dwane was an offshore company and couldn’t reclaim VAT. Bristol Rovers are now paying the bills so that VAT can be reclaimed. I presume that was approved by the VAT authorities? I don't suppose it is that different to when Bristol Rovers paid some of the bills at The Beeches.
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 29, 2020 13:41:52 GMT
If it’s true! Mmmm. Just because a few have questioned swiss does that mean it will pass into Gaschat history as the truth? He’s been a pretty good barometer of what’s been happening financially with us for a few years. Or do I take it he’s the new scapegoat to have ago at? I guess I’ll wait and see before condemning someone. UTG! Yes I totally agree. He has always offered a very well reasoned and balanced opposition. I would not want to see him start being a bit naughty in how he presents stuff because I dont want him to undermine himself as others have on both sides of the argument. Reasoned debate and contributors are a scarce commodity! Yes, agree with that. My point was that over the past 4 years he has been consistent in what he’s said and istr has predicted fairly well how it would go. He’s always posted in a reasoned and non-combative way that has encouraged debate. And as you say Hugo, such debate can be fairly scarce. UTG!
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Post by peterparker on Apr 29, 2020 13:52:04 GMT
The owners didn’t realise that because Dwane was an offshore company and couldn’t reclaim VAT. Bristol Rovers are now paying the bills so that VAT can be reclaimed. I presume that was approved by the VAT authorities? As I say it's not an uncommon practice. The purpose of VAT is to collect tax for the government Say the cost is £100. VAT would be added. Dwane would pay £120. The end. they cannot reclaim the VAT as an overseas business 1883Ltd would still pay £120, but the £20 would form part of the VAT return and be offset against the VAT it collected, reducing what would be owed to the tax man. 1883ltd can then recharge Dwane for the £100 expense. Dwane could reclaim the VAT it's self but would have to register for VAT in the UK, but would have to meet certain turnover (Which it doesn't)
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 29, 2020 14:02:22 GMT
If it’s true! Mmmm. Just because a few have questioned swiss does that mean it will pass into Gaschat history as the truth? He’s been a pretty good barometer of what’s been happening financially with us for a few years. Or do I take it he’s the new scapegoat to have ago at? I guess I’ll wait and see before condemning someone. UTG! I can't prove that Dwane is dodgy, just as Swiss can't prove they are. Now I am not saying Swiss is saying they are, but his writing may imply to a lesser accounts minded person that Dwane are a bit suspect. As they say Knowledge is power, and if people have treated Swiss' opinion with respect in the past, than it easy to push them to a preferred way of thinking (and I am not saying he is doing that) I and LJG have counter-pointed Swiss. Some of it may go over people heads, some people may take Swiss' words as ' The Truth', but it is good to have more than one interpretation out there. Nothing is black and white and nothing should go unchecked Yes, it is good to have a counter-point to what swiss has said and it’s good to read that as well. Swiss doesn’t need me standing up for him, he’s capable of doing that himself, but some of the stuff against him (not yours particularly) has been dropping into the personal imo and his has been a consistent message over the past three years. Reasoned debate and different opinions are good to read. PP, you’re too polite to say it but I may well be one of those “lesser accounts-minded person” that you’ve mentioned. But in defence of that, whilst in the end who the money is owed to or even what the total debt is may be not over important at some point it will need to be considered. If it’s owed to Dwayne then perhaps it could be considered not as bad. But the AQs are bankers and I’m pretty sure they are not our owners from a philanthropic point of view. They will be looking to recover their money in some form. Whatever the debt is, it could prove a huge obstacle to selling the club to those who may be able to move is forward in a way that the AQs, for whatever reason, haven’t been able to in regards to the big infrastructure stuff. We are light years away from being a sustainable club and they look not to have a plan to make us one. If they have a plan then they haven’t communicated it to us which for some may be ok. Whatever, the growth of the deficit over the past 3 years has to be a worry doesn’t it? And with the state of football at the present time, lots of expenditure without any income has, I think, concentrated minds on this (and other) forums. The conversation has switched from how we are playing, where we are in the table, to questions over our basic survival as a club. I guess the accounts figure and what it said came at a bad time for the AQs but it did and we move on, I hope. UTG!
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Post by peterparker on Apr 29, 2020 14:15:54 GMT
I can't prove that Dwane is dodgy, just as Swiss can't prove they are. Now I am not saying Swiss is saying they are, but his writing may imply to a lesser accounts minded person that Dwane are a bit suspect. As they say Knowledge is power, and if people have treated Swiss' opinion with respect in the past, than it easy to push them to a preferred way of thinking (and I am not saying he is doing that) I and LJG have counter-pointed Swiss. Some of it may go over people heads, some people may take Swiss' words as ' The Truth', but it is good to have more than one interpretation out there. Nothing is black and white and nothing should go unchecked Yes, it is good to have a counter-point to what swiss has said and it’s good to read that as well. Swiss doesn’t need me standing up for him, he’s capable of doing that himself, but some of the stuff against him (not yours particularly) has been dropping into the personal imo and his has been a consistent message over the past three years. Reasoned debate and different opinions are good to read. PP, you’re too polite to say it but I may well be one of those “lesser accounts-minded person” that you’ve mentioned. But in defence of that, whilst in the end who the money is owed to or even what the total debt is may be not over important at some point it will need to be considered. If it’s owed to Dwayne then perhaps it could be considered not as bad. But the AQs are bankers and I’m pretty sure they are not our owners from a philanthropic point of view. They will be looking to recover their money in some form. Whatever the debt is, it could prove a huge obstacle to selling the club to those who may be able to move is forward in a way that the AQs, for whatever reason, haven’t been able to in regards to the big infrastructure stuff. We are light years away from being a sustainable club and they look not to have a plan to make us one. If they have a plan then they haven’t communicated it to us which for some may be ok. Whatever, the growth of the deficit over the past 3 years has to be a worry doesn’t it? And with the state of football at the present time, lots of expenditure without any income has, I think, concentrated minds on this (and other) forums. The conversation has switched from how we are playing, where we are in the table, to questions over our basic survival as a club. I guess the accounts figure and what it said came at a bad time for the AQs but it did and we move on, I hope. UTG! I am not saying their running of the clubs is any good. my issue is that there is plenty to justifiably criticise Dwane Sports without inferring and implying to other people that a common accounting practice is some sort of nefarious scheme Again, not saying Swiss is doing anything deliberate, but again with all due to respect to those not versed in accounts, that that little bit of knowledge they gleam from Swiss, myself or anyone else for that matter is potentially dangerous. Chinese whispers and that sort of thing. A 'potential scenario' soon becomes gospel and passed around as 'FACT' and someone soon accuses them of ripping off the club and potentially getting in a legal mess It's like the debt secured against The Mem. It means nothing in and off it's self until a reality is fulfilled. Securing it simply means/meant that. They own 92% of the club and can dispose of any asset as they see fit with or without security I have no idea what the end game/strategy for Dwane Sports is or was, or even could be given the current Coronavirus concerns
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Post by swissgas on Apr 29, 2020 14:50:16 GMT
Still doesn't seem right though does it. So LJG was right then. When I wrote that line I had a twinkle in my eye Hugo and thought about adding one of those emoticons to it. Because when someone starts shooting wildly at the messenger you know the message is getting through and the recipient is becoming jittery. But I didn't add that smiley face because the slow demise of Rovers isn't a laughing matter for any of us. There is no muddying of the waters. The question was asked "it has been suggested that money is being taken from Rovers to prop up another of the families assets. Although not illegal -- Can anyone substantiate this ?". The answer is yes, and it couldn't be made any clearer because it is written in the BRFC 1883 Ltd 2018 audited accounts. We can argue all day about it but the fact remains that BRFC has paid out money on behalf of Dwane Colony Ltd, which is a separate company, and Dwane Colony Ltd has not repaid Rovers. If the brothers jointly owned a hot dog stand in downtown St Helier, called Dwane's Delicious Dogs Ltd, I guess some fans would be quite happy for Rovers to buy the hot dogs in Bristol (because they were cheaper) and ship them out to Jersey but then not get paid for them ? I don't know any of the "scapegoats" regularly brought up on the forums other than John Harding whom I haven't seen or spoken to for over 25 years. The same applied in the previous era of "scapegoating" when I could safely say I had never met Kevin or any of the others who were vilified by some for wanting Rovers to do better. My views are purely my own. On this specific issue perhaps fans could ponder what they would do if they were in an ownership position. a) I own the businesses so I can do whatever I like b) I owe it to these people to make all transactions between the companies squeaky clean.
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Post by peterparker on Apr 29, 2020 15:59:03 GMT
When I wrote that line I had a twinkle in my eye Hugo and thought about adding one of those emoticons to it. Because when someone starts shooting wildly at the messenger you know the message is getting through and the recipient is becoming jittery. But I didn't add that smiley face because the slow demise of Rovers isn't a laughing matter for any of us. There is no muddying of the waters. The question was asked "it has been suggested that money is being taken from Rovers to prop up another of the families assets. Although not illegal -- Can anyone substantiate this ?". The answer is yes, and it couldn't be made any clearer because it is written in the BRFC 1883 Ltd 2018 audited accounts.
We can argue all day about it but the fact remains that BRFC has paid out money on behalf of Dwane Colony Ltd, which is a separate company, and Dwane Colony Ltd has not repaid Rovers. If the brothers jointly owned a hot dog stand in downtown St Helier, called Dwane's Delicious Dogs Ltd, I guess some fans would be quite happy for Rovers to buy the hot dogs in Bristol (because they were cheaper) and ship them out to Jersey but then not get paid for them ? I don't know any of the "scapegoats" regularly brought up on the forums other than John Harding whom I haven't seen or spoken to for over 25 years. The same applied in the previous era of "scapegoating" when I could safely say I had never met Kevin or any of the others who were vilified by some for wanting Rovers to do better. My views are purely my own. On this specific issue perhaps fans could ponder what they would do if they were in an ownership position. a) I own the businesses so I can do whatever I like b) I owe it to these people to make all transactions between the companies squeaky clean. Again technically true, but we can go back to square one easy enough We will either go bust with Dwane Sports in control, or someone will come along to buy 1883ltd for an agreed price with all the assets and liabilities taken into account
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