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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 17:33:11 GMT
What happened to the panic about channel migrants on dinghies?
Is it that we have to get a different sh1t storm every day or was it a storm in a teacup?
The news cycle sucks. And then you get the government releasing important information through the telegraph at 9pm on weekends.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 18:07:03 GMT
A crony appointment indeed. Made a complete hash of Talk Talk, no relevant experience in Health Care, ran the now laughable Test Track & Trace App (which never was) BUT Went to Oxford with Cameron, was given a place in the House of Lords, why? Nobody seems to know. flip.it/JOJCct
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 18:09:16 GMT
But under instruction to build in a block against grade inflation. That was a political decision. Without knowing whether eric was suggesting the blame lies on the builders, or was genuinely wondering who built it - who do you blame for WW2, the soldier or Hitler? I suspect Eric was buying the Government line. Apologies up front Eric if that is not the case.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 19:12:01 GMT
Who created the algorithm? But under instruction to build in a block against grade inflation. That was a political decision. Was it wrong to want a system created to seek a set of results consistent with those from previous years? Why did the teachers over inflate with their predictions? At what level of grade inflation would you want before someone to call it into question? Perhaps none in which case the teachers should have just given everyone straight A’s.
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Post by Gassy on Aug 18, 2020 19:46:33 GMT
But under instruction to build in a block against grade inflation. That was a political decision. Was it wrong to want a system created to seek a set of results consistent with those from previous years? Why did the teachers over inflate with their predictions? At what level of grade inflation would you want before someone to call it into question? Perhaps none in which case the teachers should have just given everyone straight A’s. It's not wrong to want the set of results that are consistent, instead they created something that was the opposite. Why is it a case of over inflation vs failure and a postcode lottery? The fact that this seems to be the only 2 options you've suggested sums up how sh*te this government even is in the first place. There is absolutely no reason why they can't look at the mock results + teachers predicted grades and take an average. Do you have any proof that teachers have been over inflating the predictions? And let's say in this mad world that students who've received C's & D's all year suddenly get straight A's - do you think that will go unnoticed? That teachers themselves are not professionals enough to judge the work and that they're just in it for the handouts, knowing that giving one student a made up grade, would only screw over another student who made the grades fairly? Do you really think that low of teachers? Of course, I am twisting your words deliberately here. But the point remains that teachers are professionals and the government set up a sh*t way to determine results. That falls on them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 20:04:28 GMT
Was it wrong to want a system created to seek a set of results consistent with those from previous years? Why did the teachers over inflate with their predictions? At what level of grade inflation would you want before someone to call it into question? Perhaps none in which case the teachers should have just given everyone straight A’s. It's not wrong to want the set of results that are consistent, instead they created something that was the opposite. Why is it a case of over inflation vs failure and a postcode lottery? The fact that this seems to be the only 2 options you've suggested sums up how sh*te this government even is in the first place. There is absolutely no reason why they can't look at the mock results + teachers predicted grades and take an average. Do you have any proof that teachers have been over inflating the predictions? And let's say in this mad world that students who've received C's & D's all year suddenly get straight A's - do you think that will go unnoticed? That teachers themselves are not professionals enough to judge the work and that they're just in it for the handouts, knowing that giving one student a made up grade, would only screw over another student who made the grades fairly? Do you really think that low of teachers? Of course, I am twisting your words deliberately here. But the point remains that teachers are professionals and the government set up a sh*t way to determine results. That falls on them. Seems to me this government & it's fanboys rush to take credit when something goes right (rare I know, but 'world leading' covid vacine research, which is part of Oxford uni whatever). And when things go wrong they attempt to apportion blame on something within the process they claim is not under their control (algorithm, PHE) It's like dealing with a spoilt child.
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Post by yattongas on Aug 18, 2020 20:07:30 GMT
Seriously .... how many u-turns is that now ? This mob just lurch from one disaster to another. Without doubt the worst government in my lifetime Apologies for answering my own post but just read it’s 8 U-turns in eight months . That really is world beating. Bravo Boris 👏
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 21:29:56 GMT
But under instruction to build in a block against grade inflation. That was a political decision. Was it wrong to want a system created to seek a set of results consistent with those from previous years? Why did the teachers over inflate with their predictions? At what level of grade inflation would you want before someone to call it into question? Perhaps none in which case the teachers should have just given everyone straight A’s. Firstly this fiasco has exposed the built in barriers to improvement imposed on those from disadvantaged backgrounds. To mark down a student based upon the historical performance of that students predecessors is remarkable in its stupidity. A students assessed marks should be based upon that students ability to express the learning outcomes demanded by the awarding body. That could be through examination, evidence based assessment or indeed a student to faculty oral examination. Nothing else matters in awarding a pass. Now the grade is down to the marker, then subsequently confirmed by internal verification and ultimately a sampling of the cohort by an external moderator. It's got nothing to do with historical trends unless of course there is something obvious such as a 100% fail rate and the need then to investigate. The robustness of our education system is the responsibility of the Government. They have failed the 2020 cohort miserably.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 21:43:48 GMT
Meanwhile, many a truth told in a tall tale flip.it/D3qfFXSo she was marked down. Classic.
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Post by trevorgas on Aug 18, 2020 21:46:37 GMT
Was it wrong to want a system created to seek a set of results consistent with those from previous years? Why did the teachers over inflate with their predictions? At what level of grade inflation would you want before someone to call it into question? Perhaps none in which case the teachers should have just given everyone straight A’s. Firstly this fiasco has exposed the built in barriers to improvement imposed on those from disadvantaged backgrounds. To mark down a student based upon the historical performance of that students predecessors is remarkable in its stupidity. A students assessed marks should be based upon that students ability to express the learning outcomes demanded by the awarding body. That could be through examination, evidence based assessment or indeed a student to faculty oral examination. Nothing else matters in awarding a pass. Now the grade is down to the marker, then subsequently confirmed by internal verification and ultimately a sampling of the cohort by an external moderator. It's got nothing to do with historical trends unless of course there is something obvious such as a 100% fail rate and the need then to investigate. The robustness of our education system is the responsibility of the Government. They have failed the 2020 cohort miserably. I totally agree Les,what I don't get from your post is without examinations and limited assessment capability how can learning outcomes be appropriately assessed? My concern with Teacher grades is that by there very nature they are not independent and by there very nature are likely to be subjective not objective,from an Inspection perspective there is also a vested intrest in working in a School with high grades.
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 18, 2020 22:20:39 GMT
But under instruction to build in a block against grade inflation. That was a political decision. Was it wrong to want a system created to seek a set of results consistent with those from previous years? Why did the teachers over inflate with their predictions? At what level of grade inflation would you want before someone to call it into question? Perhaps none in which case the teachers should have just given everyone straight A’s. In this year Eric it was wrong because: 1. No one in their right sense would ever compare A Levels in 2020 with any year in the past or in the future because everyone knows that there has been little formal or organised direct education or teaching since mid-March. It is so different. 2. If they wanted to avoid over-inflation of scores and results then they needed to devise a much fairer system that didn’t handicap pupils who’d been educated in schools that hadn’t been as good as others. It’s the government’s responsibility to make sure schools are fit for purpose not pupils doing their exams. Yet they have been the ones that have suffered. They have had plenty of time to devise a system to avoid grade-inflation, if they wanted it badly enough, one that was fair to all pupils and didn’t handicap those who attended certain schools. 3. How do you know the teachers over inflated with their predictions? Teachers are going to be as accurate as they can, professional pride, moderating controls and my experience would lead me to think teachers and Headteachers would know they would lose credibility if, as you say they over inflate. Schools will have controls in place to avoid this. 4. It was clearly going to be a very difficult year for exams GCSEs and A Levels but the government were very sharp to abandon the exam system when lockdown occurred. What they didn’t do is ensure that a fair system of marking, assessment, moderation was put in place to enable each pupil to be assessed accurately. 5. To aim for a consistent system over time and avoid grade-inflation is of course sensible but not at the expense of childrens’ futures and not by using a system which handicaps children from schools that may not have the historically high achievements of other schools. That is just plain unfair. So you think it’s better to have a system that handicaps children based on what children years before did in that school or area for the sake of ensuring the avoidance of grade-inflation? I can’t believe anyone would want that. Yet because of the time line of this crisis and despite the U-turn thousands pupils have had their futures put on hold or irrevocably changed because of faulty algorithm. Eric I very often agree with your posts but on this occasion I’m afraid not.
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Post by Gassy on Aug 18, 2020 22:39:53 GMT
Wareham - I’ve been thinking this for a while and discussing it with my mum (also a head): do you think Covid will finally see more of a swing towards coursework over examinations?
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Post by peterparker on Aug 19, 2020 5:36:15 GMT
But under instruction to build in a block against grade inflation. That was a political decision. Was it wrong to want a system created to seek a set of results consistent with those from previous years? Why did the teachers over inflate with their predictions? At what level of grade inflation would you want before someone to call it into question? Perhaps none in which case the teachers should have just given everyone straight A’s. A lot of A-levels were modular until Gove scrapped that. Most students would already have had 3/4 of their grades/course completed
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2020 7:55:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2020 7:55:31 GMT
Firstly this fiasco has exposed the built in barriers to improvement imposed on those from disadvantaged backgrounds. To mark down a student based upon the historical performance of that students predecessors is remarkable in its stupidity. A students assessed marks should be based upon that students ability to express the learning outcomes demanded by the awarding body. That could be through examination, evidence based assessment or indeed a student to faculty oral examination. Nothing else matters in awarding a pass. Now the grade is down to the marker, then subsequently confirmed by internal verification and ultimately a sampling of the cohort by an external moderator. It's got nothing to do with historical trends unless of course there is something obvious such as a 100% fail rate and the need then to investigate. The robustness of our education system is the responsibility of the Government. They have failed the 2020 cohort miserably. I totally agree Les,what I don't get from your post is without examinations and limited assessment capability how can learning outcomes be appropriately assessed? My concern with Teacher grades is that by there very nature they are not independent and by there very nature are likely to be subjective not objective,from an Inspection perspective there is also a vested intrest in working in a School with high grades. Clive Good morning. I agree with you, but I think we have to accept that within the context of our current constraints teacher assessment is the best we can deliver. So the question is does that risk "grade inflation"? The answer is probably, but do we then punish a whole cohort with crack handed way of dealing with that, or say ok, yes probably, but everybody who wanted a place at Uni got one, let's move on and plan better for next year. I know where my money lies.
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 19, 2020 8:58:48 GMT
Wareham - I’ve been thinking this for a while and discussing it with my mum (also a head): do you think Covid will finally see more of a swing towards coursework over examinations? Gassy, if you’d asked me that 10 years ago I would have agreed. But successive governments have steered away from this. Over the past few years the Conservatives have shown that they do like exams, I think they see it as a more “traditional” way to determine results. However the complete farce that has surrounded the exam system all over the UK, not just England, may lead to change along those lines. Michael Gove started to pull back on course work but with the problems that have been faced I suspect Williamson or his successor will be working towards something that avoids grade-inflation and avoids the humiliations of this week. That would seem the sensible route to take I would have thought so that such a system was ready for next year. Whether this is a more coursework system or something else only time will tell. But surely the Covid crisis will create changes in the education system just as in many other areas. Unfortunately, their incompetence and unintelligible way they go about things doesn’t fill me with confidence that they will.
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Post by trevorgas on Aug 19, 2020 9:18:20 GMT
I totally agree Les,what I don't get from your post is without examinations and limited assessment capability how can learning outcomes be appropriately assessed? My concern with Teacher grades is that by there very nature they are not independent and by there very nature are likely to be subjective not objective,from an Inspection perspective there is also a vested intrest in working in a School with high grades. Clive Good morning. I agree with you, but I think we have to accept that within the context of our current constraints teacher assessment is the best we can deliver. So the question is does that risk "grade inflation"? The answer is probably, but do we then punish a whole cohort with crack handed way of dealing with that, or say ok, yes probably, but everybody who wanted a place at Uni got one, let's move on and plan better for next year. I know where my money lies. Morning Les,I agree,the practicalities in Universities are now surfacing around not enough course places,accommodation etc so this is not a free hit. It's like a snake eating a deer!!. If there are a signicant number of deferalls it will impact the 2021 cohort,finally I don't see planning as one of Williamsons strong points😆. The impact of this virus will touch every corner of Society.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2020 9:20:27 GMT
Wareham - I’ve been thinking this for a while and discussing it with my mum (also a head): do you think Covid will finally see more of a swing towards coursework over examinations? Gassy, if you’d asked me that 10 years ago I would have agreed. But successive governments have steered away from this. Over the past few years the Conservatives have shown that they do like exams, I think they see it as a more “traditional” way to determine results. However the complete farce that has surrounded the exam system all over the UK, not just England, may lead to change along those lines. Michael Gove started to pull back on course work but with the problems that have been faced I suspect Williamson or his successor will be working towards something that avoids grade-inflation and avoids the humiliations of this week. That would seem the sensible route to take I would have thought so that such a system was ready for next year. Whether this is a more coursework system or something else only time will tell. But surely the Covid crisis will create changes in the education system just as in many other areas. Unfortunately, their incompetence and unintelligible way they go about things doesn’t fill me with confidence that they will. Wareham With your previous professional hat on is it not the case that course work that demonstrates the learning outcomes have been achieved is a better than, or at least equal to examination as long as the marking is subject to internal and external verification? The latter by an awarding body appointed person or people's? Does this not eliminate the vagaries of "on the day" mishaps?
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Post by warehamgas on Aug 19, 2020 9:52:44 GMT
Yes oldie you are right about coursework v exams and the pros of coursework that you identified. But, and I can understand this to an extent, if it were coursework completely then there may well be grade-inflation. They would need to alter and look closely at the criteria required to achieve the top grades so that the normal distribution curve ranging from pass to fail was still maintained. And of course there are certain tendencies that get exaggerated in the current system. There are gender imbalances insofar as it appears females do better with coursework, whilst males appear to do better with an exam system. That’s a very blunt statement but exams are preferred by some so it may not be as popular as we sometimes think. I would suggest though that the biggest obstacle to any change is the government itself. Conservative governments love exam based systems, it’s what they are used to in their own experience I would imagine. I don’t think they have ever totally trusted teachers despite saying they do and their actions show that they work independently of the educational experts and because of that there is always a friction between government and education.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2020 10:48:01 GMT
Yes oldie you are right about coursework v exams and the pros of coursework that you identified. But, and I can understand this to an extent, if it were coursework completely then there may well be grade-inflation. They would need to alter and look closely at the criteria required to achieve the top grades so that the normal distribution curve ranging from pass to fail was still maintained. And of course there are certain tendencies that get exaggerated in the current system. There are gender imbalances insofar as it appears females do better with coursework, whilst males appear to do better with an exam system. That’s a very blunt statement but exams are preferred by some so it may not be as popular as we sometimes think. I would suggest though that the biggest obstacle to any change is the government itself. Conservative governments love exam based systems, it’s what they are used to in their own experience I would imagine. I don’t think they have ever totally trusted teachers despite saying they do and their actions show that they work independently of the educational experts and because of that there is always a friction between government and education. Right. It seems to me then that a combination of coursework assessment and a final examination on core learning outcomes appears to me to be the optimum system. Which is what we had until these loonies took over in 2010. On grade inflation? Unless it is silly, such as 100% of students getting a 100% mark, does it really matter? It has always been my opinion that the veracity of the marking and it's verification is the key issue, get that right and everything else follows. In my opinion, which of course is always correct (🤣🤣)
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