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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 11:42:23 GMT
It's a nuance which dilutes from the main point, which is that this country enriched itself hugely on the trade of and the utilisation of the slavery of other human beings. That's all that needs to be taught and considered when analysing our political and economic history. Exactly. It's funny how the conservatives often cry that history cant be rewritten, then selectively chose to believe whatever they want to anyway if it suits their agenda. Would be nice to get a balanced view but most people are simply incapable of it. I'm all for discussion and debate, but more often than not, especially online, you get an opening argument and then the debate is closed off. It's closed off because the person who welds the power (more followers etc) doesn't really want debate, only to get their narrative across then close the door to replies. It's mad really. Keep it focussed then there is little room for manoeuvre. At that point you often hear cries of "foul" and they trot off into the sunset |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 26, 2020 12:13:07 GMT
Neil was an editor for a conservative publication and probably has vast media experience, so he's not going to post outright lies is he? He's well trained to publish from a conservative stand point. My objection is he's selectively using a small aspect of the slavery abolition to try & justify some larger issue here, which is odd. It's a nuance which dilutes from the main point, which is that this country enriched itself hugely on the trade of and the utilisation of the slavery of other human beings. That's all that needs to be taught and considered when analysing our political and economic history. Indeed, don't disagree, where I do digress is in the selectiveness of a point. This works both ways and history cannot really be seen in isolation. We cannot ignore the slaves themselves in working towards the Abolition in addition to the politicians like Pitt and Wilberforce, nor should we put to one side the later actions of a different government in extending that abolition. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 12:53:19 GMT
It's a nuance which dilutes from the main point, which is that this country enriched itself hugely on the trade of and the utilisation of the slavery of other human beings. That's all that needs to be taught and considered when analysing our political and economic history. Indeed, don't disagree, where I do digress is in the selectiveness of a point. This works both ways and history cannot really be seen in isolation. We cannot ignore the slaves themselves in working towards the Abolition in addition to the politicians like Pitt and Wilberforce, nor should we put to one side the later actions of a different government in extending that abolition. I think where I would differ from you Stuart is that I see no honour abolishing something after you have made an absolute mint out if it. Can you imagine Hitler saying "I have abolished the ritual genocide of Jews and ordered the army to enforce this new law" No, neither can I. But it's the same thing. |
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Post by baggins on Aug 26, 2020 12:54:39 GMT
Indeed, don't disagree, where I do digress is in the selectiveness of a point. This works both ways and history cannot really be seen in isolation. We cannot ignore the slaves themselves in working towards the Abolition in addition to the politicians like Pitt and Wilberforce, nor should we put to one side the later actions of a different government in extending that abolition. I think where I would differ from you Stuart is that I see no honour abolishing something after you have made an absolute mint out if it. Can you imagine Hitler saying "I have abolished the ritual genocide of Jews and ordered the army to enforce this new law" No, neither can I. But it's the same thing. And look what happened to him. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 15:49:43 GMT
Well, for all the moaning in this thread, it's not working lol.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 16:07:50 GMT
Well, for all the moaning in this thread, it's not working lol. Long way to go yet. When the time comes to reflect on the performance of Johnson and his bunch of incompetents during this first calendar year of their time how anyone can determine he has, and his team have, been other than a disaster is beyond me. If course if they get a trade deal with the EU then that will be ok. Right? |
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 26, 2020 17:52:00 GMT
Indeed, don't disagree, where I do digress is in the selectiveness of a point. This works both ways and history cannot really be seen in isolation. We cannot ignore the slaves themselves in working towards the Abolition in addition to the politicians like Pitt and Wilberforce, nor should we put to one side the later actions of a different government in extending that abolition. I think where I would differ from you Stuart is that I see no honour abolishing something after you have made an absolute mint out if it. Can you imagine Hitler saying "I have abolished the ritual genocide of Jews and ordered the army to enforce this new law" No, neither can I. But it's the same thing. If it was the same people then I would agree, but I don't agree that the analogy is comparable. The Slave Trade was practised by several countries, many Governments over hundreds of years. What happened is our Parliament and law recognised, far too belatedly, that it was wrong. It then used its power to then enforce that. It wasn't France, Spain, Portugal, the US but Britain. I don't deny that we as a nation made money on the back of so much death, but perhaps we can show a little bit of gratitude to those who tried to make a difference. |
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Post by inee on Aug 26, 2020 19:50:58 GMT
It's a nuance which dilutes from the main point, which is that this country enriched itself hugely on the trade of and the utilisation of the slavery of other human beings. That's all that needs to be taught and considered when analysing our political and economic history. Indeed, don't disagree, where I do digress is in the selectiveness of a point. This works both ways and history cannot really be seen in isolation. We cannot ignore the slaves themselves in working towards the Abolition in addition to the politicians like Pitt and Wilberforce, nor should we put to one side the later actions of a different government in extending that abolition. or the campaigners in the background who kept writing to and talking to wilberforce and others, but those are always overlooked. As for selectiveness (not aimed art anyone in particular), but why does every one focus on one piece of history, you never hear of the British(although Britain dint exist back then but i wasn't going to type a list of different borders) people enslaved by the Irish via the Norse, or in later days kids and adults being press ganged into service, or how it's conveniently forgotten that slaves were bought from other tribes in their homelands for weapons and booze. Also forgotten are the barbary pirates. History is a complex thing you can't just focus on one bit and say naughty brits did this and that, see many people really think that we wandered to foreign shores, kidnapped every one and made them slave when in practise it wasn't as cut and dried as that as well people know, as in when tribes raided other tribes or won battles the losing side were kept as slaves and or sold. The reason so many think is was just us and the yanks who bought or took slaves, is because at the time it was well documented in Britain and america. Why does everyone seem to forget the french. Spanish, Portuguese, barbary pirates and others. As stu says you can't be selective in what you teach but need to teach people the wider picture. In that we were not alone in what we did but at that time it was a world wide problem. does that make it any better ,no it doesn't it just informs people that what they have been brainwashed to believe was wrong |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 19:55:33 GMT
Indeed, don't disagree, where I do digress is in the selectiveness of a point. This works both ways and history cannot really be seen in isolation. We cannot ignore the slaves themselves in working towards the Abolition in addition to the politicians like Pitt and Wilberforce, nor should we put to one side the later actions of a different government in extending that abolition. or the campaigners in the background who kept writing to and talking to wilberforce and others, but those are always overlooked. As for selectiveness (not aimed art anyone in particular), but why does every one focus on one piece of history, you never hear of the British(although Britain dint exist back then but i wasn't going to type a list of different borders) people enslaved by the Irish via the Norse, or in later days kids and adults being press ganged into service, or how it's conveniently forgotten that slaves were bought from other tribes in their homelands for weapons and booze. Also forgotten are the barbary pirates. History is a complex thing you can't just focus on one bit and say naughty brits did this and that, see many people really think that we wandered to foreign shores, kidnapped every one and made them slave when in practise it wasn't as cut and dried as that as well people know, as in when tribes raided other tribes or won battles the losing side were kept as slaves and or sold. The reason so many think is was just us and the yanks who bought or took slaves, is because at the time it was well documented in Britain and america. Why does everyone seem to forget the french. Spanish, Portuguese, barbary pirates and others. As stu says you can't be selective in what you teach but need to teach people the wider picture. In that we were not alone in what we did but at that time it was a world wide problem. does that make it any better ,no it doesn't it just informs people that what they have been brainwashed to believe was wrong The complete opposite is true of course. |
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Post by inee on Aug 26, 2020 20:03:48 GMT
Explain are you saying that what i replied with is not true and that only the white man had slaves
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2020 7:28:28 GMT
Indeed, don't disagree, where I do digress is in the selectiveness of a point. This works both ways and history cannot really be seen in isolation. We cannot ignore the slaves themselves in working towards the Abolition in addition to the politicians like Pitt and Wilberforce, nor should we put to one side the later actions of a different government in extending that abolition. or the campaigners in the background who kept writing to and talking to wilberforce and others, but those are always overlooked. As for selectiveness (not aimed art anyone in particular), but why does every one focus on one piece of history, you never hear of the British(although Britain dint exist back then but i wasn't going to type a list of different borders) people enslaved by the Irish via the Norse, or in later days kids and adults being press ganged into service, or how it's conveniently forgotten that slaves were bought from other tribes in their homelands for weapons and booze. Also forgotten are the barbary pirates. History is a complex thing you can't just focus on one bit and say naughty brits did this and that, see many people really think that we wandered to foreign shores, kidnapped every one and made them slave when in practise it wasn't as cut and dried as that as well people know, as in when tribes raided other tribes or won battles the losing side were kept as slaves and or sold. The reason so many think is was just us and the yanks who bought or took slaves, is because at the time it was well documented in Britain and america. Why does everyone seem to forget the french. Spanish, Portuguese, barbary pirates and others. As stu says you can't be selective in what you teach but need to teach people the wider picture. In that we were not alone in what we did but at that time it was a world wide problem. does that make it any better ,no it doesn't it just informs people that what they have been brainwashed to believe was wrong We are talking about the UK here. The UK was supposedly civilised when it partook in a massive slave trade, the effects of that slave trade are still at play today, as you see in the US. To try and lump in all forms of ancient slavery in to this argument is to say that you can commit a crime because someone else did it earlier. The slave trade was abolished due to pressure from mass people movements & the Haitian revolution. The slaves labour of the US cotton fields was still used after the abolition, the compensation paid to UK slavers that the tax payer covered was used to fire the industrial revolution. I know you were against the removal of the colston statue, so you are a traditionalist, which is fair enough,you are happy to follow old traditions because that's what is & always done. Not everyone is like that so we look at a past awful event and would like to see it treated as the horror is was, no different to the Holocaust. Yes there is still slavery going on around the world now, but it is part of capitalism, as was the Atlantic slave trade, so is ingrained in to our culture, one day hopefully it will be eradicated, but not if we all bury our heads in the sand. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2020 7:51:05 GMT
or the campaigners in the background who kept writing to and talking to wilberforce and others, but those are always overlooked. As for selectiveness (not aimed art anyone in particular), but why does every one focus on one piece of history, you never hear of the British(although Britain dint exist back then but i wasn't going to type a list of different borders) people enslaved by the Irish via the Norse, or in later days kids and adults being press ganged into service, or how it's conveniently forgotten that slaves were bought from other tribes in their homelands for weapons and booze. Also forgotten are the barbary pirates. History is a complex thing you can't just focus on one bit and say naughty brits did this and that, see many people really think that we wandered to foreign shores, kidnapped every one and made them slave when in practise it wasn't as cut and dried as that as well people know, as in when tribes raided other tribes or won battles the losing side were kept as slaves and or sold. The reason so many think is was just us and the yanks who bought or took slaves, is because at the time it was well documented in Britain and america. Why does everyone seem to forget the french. Spanish, Portuguese, barbary pirates and others. As stu says you can't be selective in what you teach but need to teach people the wider picture. In that we were not alone in what we did but at that time it was a world wide problem. does that make it any better ,no it doesn't it just informs people that what they have been brainwashed to believe was wrong We are talking about the UK here. The UK was supposedly civilised when it partook in a massive slave trade, the effects of that slave trade are still at play today, as you see in the US. To try and lump in all forms of ancient slavery in to this argument is to say that you can commit a crime because someone else did it earlier. The slave trade was abolished due to pressure from mass people movements & the Haitian revolution. The slaves labour of the US cotton fields was still used after the abolition, the compensation paid to UK slavers that the tax payer covered was used to fire the industrial revolution. I know you were against the removal of the colston statue, so you are a traditionalist, which is fair enough,you are happy to follow old traditions because that's what is & always done. Not everyone is like that so we look at a past awful event and would like to see it treated as the horror is was, no different to the Holocaust. Yes there is still slavery going on around the world now, but it is part of capitalism, as was the Atlantic slave trade, so is ingrained in to our culture, one day hopefully it will be eradicated, but not if we all bury our heads in the sand. I wasn't going to reply to Inee because that "Whataboutery" argument has been used so much that if people think that's fine then there is not much you can say to convince them otherwise. I agree with what you say, butI suspect we may disagree on the solution... |
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Post by inee on Aug 27, 2020 9:53:56 GMT
or the campaigners in the background who kept writing to and talking to wilberforce and others, but those are always overlooked. As for selectiveness (not aimed art anyone in particular), but why does every one focus on one piece of history, you never hear of the British(although Britain dint exist back then but i wasn't going to type a list of different borders) people enslaved by the Irish via the Norse, or in later days kids and adults being press ganged into service, or how it's conveniently forgotten that slaves were bought from other tribes in their homelands for weapons and booze. Also forgotten are the barbary pirates. History is a complex thing you can't just focus on one bit and say naughty brits did this and that, see many people really think that we wandered to foreign shores, kidnapped every one and made them slave when in practise it wasn't as cut and dried as that as well people know, as in when tribes raided other tribes or won battles the losing side were kept as slaves and or sold. The reason so many think is was just us and the yanks who bought or took slaves, is because at the time it was well documented in Britain and america. Why does everyone seem to forget the french. Spanish, Portuguese, barbary pirates and others. As stu says you can't be selective in what you teach but need to teach people the wider picture. In that we were not alone in what we did but at that time it was a world wide problem. does that make it any better ,no it doesn't it just informs people that what they have been brainwashed to believe was wrong We are talking about the UK here. The UK was supposedly civilised when it partook in a massive slave trade, the effects of that slave trade are still at play today, as you see in the US. To tr y and lump in all forms of ancient slavery in to this argument is to say that you can commit a crime because someone else did it earlier.The slave trade was abolished due to pressure from mass people movements & the Haitian revolution. The slaves labour of the US cotton fields was still used after the abolition, the compensation paid to UK slavers that the tax payer covered was used to fire the industrial revolution. I know you were against the removal of the colston statue, so you are a traditionalist, which is fair enough, you are happy to follow old traditions because that's what is & always done. Not everyone is like that so we look at a past awful event and would like to see it treated as the horror is was, no different to the Holocaust. Yes there is still slavery going on around the world now, but it is part of capitalism, as was the Atlantic slave trade, so is ingrained in to our culture, one day hopefully it will be eradicated, but not if we all bury our heads in the sand. Yes we are talking about the uk, An awful lot of people think that the uk acted alone in the capture of slaves, this needs addressing, as selective history is just shifting the blame to fit an anti uk narrative. No referring to all slavery (not just ancient but all) does not say it's acceptable or in your words. "you can commit a crime because someone else did it earlier." that's simply a cop out as well you know, Even wilberforce referred to it in a speech, he said something along the lines of slavery has been practised for thousands of years. Interesting you mention the Haiti revolution as you know was a slave revolt against the french ,the freed slaves also worked alongside the British and Spanish against the french, and then fought with the french. So in effect you have also bought up the fact that the uk wasn't alone in the trade it needs to be taught you think i'm trying to spread blame, i'm not i'm trying to show that other countries are just as guilty as we were(does it lessen the blame does it f**k). What is interesting to me is that it was the quakers who featured heavily in the abolitionist movement, who would have thought religion would have been useful in the freeing of millions, instead of the murder many people worldwide. As you invoked Godwin's law  . It's fair to say that unfortunantely it's history repeating itself as the world stood by and did feck all. can you see the pattern here. Again the majority will say hitler bad ,allies good whilst totally ignoring things like the leveling of dresden. Or the atrocities of the japs, does that still get taught in schools or have it been forgotten as most of the captives are now dead. So again i will say you can't be selective with history as it leads to people believe wrongly what happened, and as such in general people will continue to make the same mistakes and as our forefathers. |
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Post by inee on Aug 27, 2020 10:01:40 GMT
We are talking about the UK here. The UK was supposedly civilised when it partook in a massive slave trade, the effects of that slave trade are still at play today, as you see in the US. To try and lump in all forms of ancient slavery in to this argument is to say that you can commit a crime because someone else did it earlier. The slave trade was abolished due to pressure from mass people movements & the Haitian revolution. The slaves labour of the US cotton fields was still used after the abolition, the compensation paid to UK slavers that the tax payer covered was used to fire the industrial revolution. I know you were against the removal of the colston statue, so you are a traditionalist, which is fair enough,you are happy to follow old traditions because that's what is & always done. Not everyone is like that so we look at a past awful event and would like to see it treated as the horror is was, no different to the Holocaust. Yes there is still slavery going on around the world now, but it is part of capitalism, as was the Atlantic slave trade, so is ingrained in to our culture, one day hopefully it will be eradicated, but not if we all bury our heads in the sand. I wasn't going to reply to Inee because that "Whataboutery" argument has been used so much that if people think that's fine then there is not much you can say to convince them otherwise. I agree with what you say, butI suspect we may disagree on the solution... Come off it Oldie, I expected more from you, but again either no or a small reply, to me that smacks of if you don't agree with me i wont talk to you. Likewise you seem to be blinded by hatred of this country, not once have i condoned or agreed with slavery, and you really surprised me with this reply,as you always ask for the truth ,when it's presented you then hide away |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2020 10:23:41 GMT
I wasn't going to reply to Inee because that "Whataboutery" argument has been used so much that if people think that's fine then there is not much you can say to convince them otherwise. I agree with what you say, butI suspect we may disagree on the solution... Come off it Oldie, I expected more from you, but again either no or a small reply, to me that smacks of if you don't agree with me i wont talk to you. Likewise you seem to be blinded by hatred of this country, not once have i condoned or agreed with slavery, and you really surprised me with this reply,as you always ask for the truth ,when it's presented you then hide away Not quite Inee. You hold strongly held views and I see little point in circular debate when we are never going to agree or even agree to disagree. As for hatred of my country, that's just nonsense. I do however dislike statements, actions or policies that embarrass us as a country as actually I would claim to be patriotic, which is not the same as blind adherence to untruth or misrepresentation. |
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Post by inee on Aug 27, 2020 11:43:26 GMT
Come off it Oldie, I expected more from you, but again either no or a small reply, to me that smacks of if you don't agree with me i wont talk to you. Likewise you seem to be blinded by hatred of this country, not once have i condoned or agreed with slavery, and you really surprised me with this reply,as you always ask for the truth ,when it's presented you then hide away Not quite Inee. You hold strongly held views and I see little point in circular debate when we are never going to agree or even agree to disagree. As for hatred of my country, that's just nonsense. I do however dislike statements, actions or policies that embarrass us as a country as actually I would claim to be patriotic, which is not the same as blind adherence to untruth or misrepresentation. Your not the first person who has said i have strongly held views . With me what you see is what you get, im the same on here as i am in real life Ok i will change my view on your thoughts of our country, the thing is the way you write about England tends to be read as hatred. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2020 13:39:53 GMT
Not quite Inee. You hold strongly held views and I see little point in circular debate when we are never going to agree or even agree to disagree. As for hatred of my country, that's just nonsense. I do however dislike statements, actions or policies that embarrass us as a country as actually I would claim to be patriotic, which is not the same as blind adherence to untruth or misrepresentation. Your not the first person who has said i have strongly held views . With me what you see is what you get, im the same on here as i am in real life Ok i will change my view on your thoughts of our country, the thing is the way you write about England tends to be read as hatred. You need to get with the times. Don’t ever dare say what you think, say what you are expected say and what makes you looks like a great ‘right on’ sort of guy! |
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Post by peterparker on Aug 27, 2020 13:46:48 GMT
Boris spouting inane gibberish in front of school kids today.
Not sure he caught his audience
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Post by Gassy on Aug 27, 2020 19:04:59 GMT
Anyone see the 10/10 trolling from the librarian the other day on Boris?
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Post by Gassy on Aug 27, 2020 19:09:15 GMT
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. It's fair to say that unfortunantely it's history repeating itself as the world stood by and did feck all. can you see the pattern here. 
