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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 11:13:52 GMT
😂 That will probably be about right |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 16, 2020 14:26:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2020 14:44:41 GMT
I wonder if there is anything in the Russia report that is remotely exsplosive or if it will be a damp squib. I’ve really gotten into the subject of Russian relations with the west since nobby tried to play down the allegations of Russian meddling (iirc he tried to claim Russia had nothing to do with the US election didn’t he? 😂). It’s a fascinating topic and to my mind it is beyond any doubt that Russia will have attempted to use many forms of leverage to have an effect on British democracy- the question is how much? I’m sceptical we will get anywhere near the full truth from this report. Russia’s main agitation seems to be electronic these days but I still would not write off attempts at societal influence especially given how welcoming the London economy is to Russian money, particularly in housing. The Tories have a donor who used to be close to Putin and it seems that once you’ve been clutched close to Putin’s bosom(!) it’s hard to extricate yourself from it as he takes a dim view of people who go abroad and turn their backs on the Fatherland. The cuts to civil service mean we don’t have the man power we once did to fully keep up with Russian operations on British soil either. In all I think people would be surprised how at risk we are from Russian infiltration given how it has taken on a more aggressive foreign policy in the last 15 years that involves foreign assassinations and cyber attacks on foreign electrical infrastructure. Putin is a dangerous man and I get the impression from the west’s rather trivial retribution (compared with robust action against China and North Korea) that it is somewhat scared of what he is capable of. I thought the report was about donations from Russian oligarchs to Tory campaigns? I wonder who were the first nation states to interfere with elections and nations as you described. Russia, UK, USA... I'd imagine every relative superpower would be involved. I mean Google, Microsoft, Facebook & Amazon could know more about you than any of your friends or family ever would, and it's well known the US mega corps have close ties with the US military. I can believe that Russia would want to interfere with brexit in order to split up the EU with evidence, but don't think thats anything compared to what the USA have done to the global south since WW2. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 0:24:00 GMT
I’ve really gotten into the subject of Russian relations with the west since nobby tried to play down the allegations of Russian meddling (iirc he tried to claim Russia had nothing to do with the US election didn’t he? 😂). It’s a fascinating topic and to my mind it is beyond any doubt that Russia will have attempted to use many forms of leverage to have an effect on British democracy- the question is how much? I’m sceptical we will get anywhere near the full truth from this report. Russia’s main agitation seems to be electronic these days but I still would not write off attempts at societal influence especially given how welcoming the London economy is to Russian money, particularly in housing. The Tories have a donor who used to be close to Putin and it seems that once you’ve been clutched close to Putin’s bosom(!) it’s hard to extricate yourself from it as he takes a dim view of people who go abroad and turn their backs on the Fatherland. The cuts to civil service mean we don’t have the man power we once did to fully keep up with Russian operations on British soil either. In all I think people would be surprised how at risk we are from Russian infiltration given how it has taken on a more aggressive foreign policy in the last 15 years that involves foreign assassinations and cyber attacks on foreign electrical infrastructure. Putin is a dangerous man and I get the impression from the west’s rather trivial retribution (compared with robust action against China and North Korea) that it is somewhat scared of what he is capable of. I thought the report was about donations from Russian oligarchs to Tory campaigns? I wonder who were the first nation states to interfere with elections and nations as you described. Russia, UK, USA... I'd imagine every relative superpower would be involved. I mean Google, Microsoft, Facebook & Amazon could know more about you than any of your friends or family ever would, and it's well known the US mega corps have close ties with the US military. I can believe that Russia would want to interfere with brexit in order to split up the EU with evidence, but don't think thats anything compared to what the USA have done to the global south since WW2. AFAIK it’s mostly about election fraud, political parties have to declare their donors for amounts above a nominal amount (£10k or so I think). The depressing takeaway from that is that the Tories have somewhere in the region of at least 3 x the amount of donations as Labour (at the last election Labour iirc got something like £250k in donations whereas the Tories were in the order of millions). So you can see for a start the unequal playing field- imagine the damage Cummings can do with a sizeable budget for his dis-information campaigns. The only thing of note wrt to donors is the former minister of Putin’s who has moved to London and donated sizeable sums to the Tories. Personally it leaves me cold that any foreign National is allowed to contribute funds to warp our democracy let alone one formerly associated with Putin and as I said previously, you don’t just cut ties with a man of his power and influence- if you stray too far you can wind up dead in mysterious circumstances. So for me there is a question mark over his influence on the Tory party. Wrt to election fraud obviously over the years the likes of the CIA will almost certainly have used physical influence to try and install puppet governments whose aims align with that of the West. But apparently the first instance of electronic influence/fraud was by Russia during the Ukrainian election in 2014/2015 (I forget which year) closely followed by a big flexing of the muscles during the American election when there was hacking of servers, phishing attacks and even rumours of attempts to hack an electronic ballot box in one state. Against such a backdrop does anyone dare believe that attempts weren’t made to play a part in the U.K. election? In fact we saw the leaking of the document regarding the sale of the NHS to the US in the run up to the election. Dominic Raab has pretty much admitted that some meddling has taken place. Russia’s hacking prowess is currently the most advanced in the world and they have proven in recent years that they can successfully shutdown entire electrical grids remotely. Compared to the damage they can do to infrastructure electoral tampering seems rather trivial by comparison. I see Putin has changed the Russian constitution this year to allow him two more terms so interesting times ahead for Western democracy.... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 8:59:39 GMT
More comedy from the left with faux outrage around election fraud and allegations of ballot shenanigans.
Not only is the party itself under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office, but maybe consider people such as Lutfur Rahman, stripped of his position of Mayor after serious voter fraud, or irregularities in university towns around the country with, somehow, students receiving ballot cards for addresses that they weren't registered to, or Mohammad Zain Qureshi, convicted of voting twice using variations of his name from the same address.
I could sit here and type this stuff for literally hours, most cases I find involve Labour voters.
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Post by William Wilson on Jul 17, 2020 9:06:32 GMT
I thought the report was about donations from Russian oligarchs to Tory campaigns? I wonder who were the first nation states to interfere with elections and nations as you described. Russia, UK, USA... I'd imagine every relative superpower would be involved. I mean Google, Microsoft, Facebook & Amazon could know more about you than any of your friends or family ever would, and it's well known the US mega corps have close ties with the US military. I can believe that Russia would want to interfere with brexit in order to split up the EU with evidence, but don't think thats anything compared to what the USA have done to the global south since WW2. over the years the likes of the CIA will almost certainly have used physical influence to try and install puppet governments whose aims align with that of the West. Reminds me of the scene from, " A fish called Wanda." John Cleese squares up to Kevin Cline, and says, "I must warn you, I boxed for Oxford". And Kline pulls out a gun and says, "Yeah? And I killed for the CIA". |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 9:14:15 GMT
More comedy from the left with faux outrage around election fraud and allegations of ballot shenanigans. Not only is the party itself under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office, but maybe consider people such as Lutfur Rahman, stripped of his position of Mayor after serious voter fraud, or irregularities in university towns around the country with, somehow, students receiving ballot cards for addresses that they weren't registered to, or Mohammad Zain Qureshi, convicted of voting twice using variations of his name from the same address. I could sit here and type this stuff for literally hours, most cases I find involve Labour voters. Whataboutery written large Going to be interesting to see what is actually in the report. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 9:25:45 GMT
More comedy from the left with faux outrage around election fraud and allegations of ballot shenanigans. Not only is the party itself under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office, but maybe consider people such as Lutfur Rahman, stripped of his position of Mayor after serious voter fraud, or irregularities in university towns around the country with, somehow, students receiving ballot cards for addresses that they weren't registered to, or Mohammad Zain Qureshi, convicted of voting twice using variations of his name from the same address. I could sit here and type this stuff for literally hours, most cases I find involve Labour voters. Whataboutery written large Going to be interesting to see what is actually in the report. I don't even know what 'whataboutery' means? What report are we talking about here, the investigation in Labour? Hopefully I've written enough over the years for you to realise that I've just about worked out that I have close to zero respect for the majority of MPs, ministers, advisers, and find individuals who continually back one party over the other a bit silly. Had someone written the above from a right wing perspective, if I were in the mood, I may well have posted something gently teasing that viewpoint in the same way. Tribal politics is rather daft. My point really was, if you are a Labour supporter, there are so many actual, proven instances of electoral fraud or attempted fraud, you really aren't in a position to attempt to criticise anybody. It's a bit like Thiery Henry saying that Maradona was a bad boy for punching that ball into our goal. He can say it, but he shouldn't bee too surprised if he gets laughed at. |
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Post by William Wilson on Jul 17, 2020 9:29:42 GMT
More comedy from the left with faux outrage around election fraud and allegations of ballot shenanigans. Not only is the party itself under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office, but maybe consider people such as Lutfur Rahman, stripped of his position of Mayor after serious voter fraud, or irregularities in university towns around the country with, somehow, students receiving ballot cards for addresses that they weren't registered to, or Mohammad Zain Qureshi, convicted of voting twice using variations of his name from the same address. I could sit here and type this stuff for literally hours, most cases I find involve Labour voters. Whataboutery written large Going to be interesting to see what is actually in the report. How about the report from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, into the party you voted for? Got to be due soon. I guess if you regard the decades long, murderous rampage of the Baader Meinhofer gang, as "Heady days", you wouldn`t have too many problems with Jeremy Corbyn. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 9:44:37 GMT
Whataboutery written large Going to be interesting to see what is actually in the report. How about the report from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, into the party you voted for? Got to be due soon. I guess if you regard the decades long, murderous rampage of the Baader Meinhofer gang, as "Heady days", you wouldn`t have too many problems with Jeremy Corbyn. Already dealt with William. That vote was cast secure in the knowledge that it wouldn't affect the outcome. Just a quick word of advice, if you ever require legal representation and find a company calling themselves Oldie &Oldie, there may be an element of risk in instructing them to construct a defence on your behalf  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 9:50:12 GMT
I thought the report was about donations from Russian oligarchs to Tory campaigns? I wonder who were the first nation states to interfere with elections and nations as you described. Russia, UK, USA... I'd imagine every relative superpower would be involved. I mean Google, Microsoft, Facebook & Amazon could know more about you than any of your friends or family ever would, and it's well known the US mega corps have close ties with the US military. I can believe that Russia would want to interfere with brexit in order to split up the EU with evidence, but don't think thats anything compared to what the USA have done to the global south since WW2. AFAIK it’s mostly about election fraud, political parties have to declare their donors for amounts above a nominal amount (£10k or so I think). The depressing takeaway from that is that the Tories have somewhere in the region of at least 3 x the amount of donations as Labour (at the last election Labour iirc got something like £250k in donations whereas the Tories were in the order of millions). So you can see for a start the unequal playing field- imagine the damage Cummings can do with a sizeable budget for his dis-information campaigns. The only thing of note wrt to donors is the former minister of Putin’s who has moved to London and donated sizeable sums to the Tories. Personally it leaves me cold that any foreign National is allowed to contribute funds to warp our democracy let alone one formerly associated with Putin and as I said previously, you don’t just cut ties with a man of his power and influence- if you stray too far you can wind up dead in mysterious circumstances. So for me there is a question mark over his influence on the Tory party. Wrt to election fraud obviously over the years the likes of the CIA will almost certainly have used physical influence to try and install puppet governments whose aims align with that of the West. But apparently the first instance of electronic influence/fraud was by Russia during the Ukrainian election in 2014/2015 (I forget which year) closely followed by a big flexing of the muscles during the American election when there was hacking of servers, phishing attacks and even rumours of attempts to hack an electronic ballot box in one state. Against such a backdrop does anyone dare believe that attempts weren’t made to play a part in the U.K. election? In fact we saw the leaking of the document regarding the sale of the NHS to the US in the run up to the election. Dominic Raab has pretty much admitted that some meddling has taken place. Russia’s hacking prowess is currently the most advanced in the world and they have proven in recent years that they can successfully shutdown entire electrical grids remotely. Compared to the damage they can do to infrastructure electoral tampering seems rather trivial by comparison. I see Putin has changed the Russian constitution this year to allow him two more terms so interesting times ahead for Western democracy.... What is the book? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 9:59:26 GMT
Whataboutery written large Going to be interesting to see what is actually in the report. How about the report from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, into the party you voted for? Got to be due soon. I guess if you regard the decades long, murderous rampage of the Baader Meinhofer gang, as "Heady days", you wouldn`t have too many problems with Jeremy Corbyn. Is your turntable broken? Faulty stylus? Brain freeze? You keep repeating the same line over and over again, despite previous responses. Try side 2. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 10:02:25 GMT
How about the report from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, into the party you voted for? Got to be due soon. I guess if you regard the decades long, murderous rampage of the Baader Meinhofer gang, as "Heady days", you wouldn`t have too many problems with Jeremy Corbyn. Already dealt with William. That vote was cast secure in the knowledge that it wouldn't affect the outcome. Just a quick word of advice, if you ever require legal representation and find a company calling themselves Oldie &Oldie, there may be an element of risk in instructing them to construct a defence on your behalf Ignoring most of that, one part stands out. I did hope it would affect the outcome. I was hoping for a hung Parliament in order to deny either incompetent absolute authority. Ah well. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 10:15:42 GMT
Already dealt with William. That vote was cast secure in the knowledge that it wouldn't affect the outcome. Just a quick word of advice, if you ever require legal representation and find a company calling themselves Oldie &Oldie, there may be an element of risk in instructing them to construct a defence on your behalf Ignoring most of that, one part stands out. I did hope it would affect the outcome. I was hoping for a hung Parliament in order to deny either incompetent absolute authority. Ah well. Lighten up, it's OK to have a bit of fun So you wanted power shared between an incompetent and a terrorist supporting, anti-Semite incompetent? On a serious note, we agree, our system of democracy works best when there is an effective opposition, which we don't have. I know you are impressed, so far, with Starmer, but he's little better than Corbyn and won't win in 4 1/2 years unless he's allowed to win, so most likely this will be where we are for the best part of another decade. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 10:28:21 GMT
Ignoring most of that, one part stands out. I did hope it would affect the outcome. I was hoping for a hung Parliament in order to deny either incompetent absolute authority. Ah well. Lighten up, it's OK to have a bit of fun So you wanted power shared between an incompetent and a terrorist supporting, anti-Semite incompetent?  On a serious note, we agree, our system of democracy works best when there is an effective opposition, which we don't have. I know you are impressed, so far, with Starmer, but he's little better than Corbyn and won't win in 4 1/2 years unless he's allowed to win, so most likely this will be where we are for the best part of another decade. So far Starmer has proved he can debate with a keen eye for detail. What will be interesting is whether he can lead an effective policy development team. And market those policies. But as a minimum it's a relief from the disorganised chaos and schoolboy days of Mr Corbyn. Sadly we are left with Tom Browns Schooldays being acted out by the clown in No10. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 10:37:37 GMT
Lighten up, it's OK to have a bit of fun So you wanted power shared between an incompetent and a terrorist supporting, anti-Semite incompetent? On a serious note, we agree, our system of democracy works best when there is an effective opposition, which we don't have. I know you are impressed, so far, with Starmer, but he's little better than Corbyn and won't win in 4 1/2 years unless he's allowed to win, so most likely this will be where we are for the best part of another decade. So far Starmer has proved he can debate with a keen eye for detail. What will be interesting is whether he can lead an effective policy development team. And market those policies. But as a minimum it's a relief from the disorganised chaos and schoolboy days of Mr Corbyn. Sadly we are left with Tom Browns Schooldays being acted out by the clown in No10. Do you want me to find the details of the letter Starmer was quoting a couple of weeks back, where his 'forensic' eye for detail completely ignored the second half of a paragraph which gave context and completely negated the claims he was making? He's just some bloke who speaks slowly. Johnson is laughing at him, I'm laughing at how silly he appears, but am saddened that Labour couldn't find a serious leader. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Jul 17, 2020 11:20:47 GMT
Already dealt with William. That vote was cast secure in the knowledge that it wouldn't affect the outcome. Just a quick word of advice, if you ever require legal representation and find a company calling themselves Oldie &Oldie, there may be an element of risk in instructing them to construct a defence on your behalf Ignoring most of that, one part stands out. I did hope it would affect the outcome. I was hoping for a hung Parliament in order to deny either incompetent absolute authority. Ah well. Same here, I voted tactically to stop an overall majority. The fact Labour were the closest party was incidental, I certainly didn't vote FOR Labour. Didn't work anyway. I like Starmer at the moment, my concern though is whether he comes across sincere enough and can genuinely express empathy. Great at PMQs with the lawyer style but whether that translates when it comes to hustings with the public. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 11:29:54 GMT
Ignoring most of that, one part stands out. I did hope it would affect the outcome. I was hoping for a hung Parliament in order to deny either incompetent absolute authority. Ah well. Same here, I voted tactically to stop an overall majority. The fact Labour were the closest party was incidental, I certainly didn't vote FOR Labour. Didn't work anyway. I like Starmer at the moment, my concern though is whether he comes across sincere enough and can genuinely express empathy. Great at PMQs with the lawyer style but whether that translates when it comes to hustings with the public. Exactly that Stuart. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 11:31:24 GMT
So far Starmer has proved he can debate with a keen eye for detail. What will be interesting is whether he can lead an effective policy development team. And market those policies. But as a minimum it's a relief from the disorganised chaos and schoolboy days of Mr Corbyn. Sadly we are left with Tom Browns Schooldays being acted out by the clown in No10. Do you want me to find the details of the letter Starmer was quoting a couple of weeks back, where his 'forensic' eye for detail completely ignored the second half of a paragraph which gave context and completely negated the claims he was making? He's just some bloke who speaks slowly. Johnson is laughing at him, I'm laughing at how silly he appears, but am saddened that Labour couldn't find a serious leader. Rather than adopt a condescending tone, if you have something to say why don't you just say it? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 11:41:48 GMT
Do you want me to find the details of the letter Starmer was quoting a couple of weeks back, where his 'forensic' eye for detail completely ignored the second half of a paragraph which gave context and completely negated the claims he was making? He's just some bloke who speaks slowly. Johnson is laughing at him, I'm laughing at how silly he appears, but am saddened that Labour couldn't find a serious leader. Rather than adopt a condescending tone, if you have something to say why don't you just say it? That's the problem with text, no intonation, in my head it wasn't condescending at all. It was just pointing out that Starmer isn't all he's being made up to be. You can't have these things all your own way, you can't throw pretty nasty insults at an entire nation, yet sound all butt hurt just because I've not agonised over the exact tone of a short, I thought neutral, post which was written in maybe 10 seconds. I'm sorry if you found something in the way it was written that wasn't to your liking, but to be honest, I've quite enjoyed the last couple of days where we've had robust but polite exchanges, let's try to move forward in that spirit if possible please? But if you want me to find details of something Starmer was claiming in an attempt to discredit the government, which was totally incorrect, I'll find the detail again. It wasn't a good look. |
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