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Post by warehamgas on Nov 23, 2020 20:26:32 GMT
Thanks RD. Just seen this, good post.
I think ZW, Sam N are our best players with two good wing backs in JH and DT/KK. Ehmer is getting better but in all honesty that goal on Saturday should have been stopped by a decent CH and captain taking control. He needs to step up. What we lack is a settled set up to fit the players we have. Im not sure any of our CHs are comfortable in a back 3, so perhaps a back 4. But then we are back into full backs and both JH and DT are better wing backs, I think.
The highlight of Saturday (only joking!) was we didn’t do much aimless passing around the back 3, that was better and until Swindon scored they never looked likely to score and our defence did look better. We looked fairly safe for a point. But that’s no good if everyone switches off to allow Pitman his one chance. (I’ve probably watched Pitman score about a quarter of his total goals at Dean Court and Saturday was typical, everyone laughing at his idleness, the way he runs until the ball comes alive in the box and he scores, that’s what he does) BG struggled to gel the players he bought into a team, I hope Tis can find it. I think he will, but it’s certainly not good at the moment.
UTG!
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Post by RD on Nov 23, 2020 20:52:43 GMT
Thanks RD. Just seen this, good post. I think ZW, Sam N are our best players with two good wing backs in JH and DT/KK. Ehmer is getting better but in all honesty that goal on Saturday should have been stopped by a decent CH and captain taking control. He needs to step up. What we lack is a settled set up to fit the players we have. Im not sure any of our CHs are comfortable in a back 3, so perhaps a back 4. But then we are back into full backs and both JH and DT are better wing backs, I think. The highlight of Saturday (only joking!) was we didn’t do much aimless passing around the back 3, that was better and until Swindon scored they never looked likely to score and our defence did look better. We looked fairly safe for a point. But that’s no good if everyone switches off to allow Pitman his one chance. (I’ve probably watched Pitman score about a quarter of his total goals at Dean Court and Saturday was typical, everyone laughing at his idleness, the way he runs until the ball comes alive in the box and he scores, that’s what he does) BG struggled to gel the players he bought into a team, I hope Tis can find it. I think he will, but it’s certainly not good at the moment. UTG! I'd quote happily try a back 4 with Hare on the right of midfield - his delivery is immense. My hope is that PT tries to get us a bit more back to basics (less playing it out from the back for now as so many mistakes it's unreal) and then add that to our game later on when results and confidence have picked up.
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 23, 2020 20:56:17 GMT
I think we have become besotted with the idea of a playing philosophy to our own detriment. L1 football mostly is old fashioned 442, simple football played with guile and determination with flashes of quality. Most teams that are successful in this league and get promoted from it are the ones that do the simple things well and are fairly direct in their approach. It’s rare that a team from this league will get out of the division playing possession Arsenal type football unless they are an ex championship side who can afford the championship players to simply outclass the opposition. . Let’s look at the Garner stats where for the post we played this possession based philosophy. In 33 games we won 6 and drew 8 losing 19. The appointment of our next manager was on the basis of continuing this philosophy. It’s a philosophy which at the moment, with the current squad, is not working. Persistence with it is simply going to get us relegated because now we haven’t got the confidence to do the simple things well. Also, we had a 20 odd point buffer to the relegation places when Garner took over meaning he had the luxury to implement it at no fear of being relegated. This year we are in trouble already. What we need to do IMO is go back to a simple approach, start with the basics well and then grow the philosophy into the U23s first to bleed them into the first team adding quality as we improve. Good post 1981. Lots of commonsense regarding what’s happening on the pitch. But in terms of BRFC, the idea of playing possession football, using younger players to then sell on isn’t what’s causing us to be where we are. Whatever system we chose to play, 442, 433, 4321 or any other should be about defending when we haven’t got the ball and attacking when we do. I’d prefer 442 but I’m probably a dinosaur and I’m not a football manager. But having watched live football for 60 odd years I think 442 is the basis for most systems and when you’ve got the ball 442 becomes 424 or 433 and when you haven’t got it 442 can become 541. Anyway too complicated. Im glad the club is trying to establish some kind of dna or vision or whatever. We’re in 21st position not because of what dna or vision is being established but because of what happens on the pitch and I agree that we need to go back to the basics, adopt a simpler approach on the field. But however simpler we make it or however we go back to basics it won’t stop: ......Ehmer scoring an own goal against Ipswich, ......our defence making a mess of Burton’s equaliser ......Baldwin making a howler against Hull ......Baldwin (?) let a big boot go over his head against Rochdale ......Keepers mistakes against Fleetwood and Swindon. ......and others. In some matches we’ve looked comfortable until we haven’t if that makes sense. The two, club direction and success on the pitch are obviously linked but they are different. I hope and expect Wael to hold his nerve and continue to do the club stuff. And I expect Tis to create a better team from some decent players but be more, as you say 1981, basic and attack when we’ve got the ball and defend a lot better than we have. As ever, fingers crossed. UTG!
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Post by utg4eva on Nov 23, 2020 21:02:19 GMT
Our best performances home and away we’re against Northampton and Lincoln respectively.
Northampton at home on the 3rd October we dominated possession (60%) and had 18 odd shots with 2-0 flattering them (josh hare hit the bar, Hanlan and Nicholson golden chances
Lincoln away the following Saturday (Lincoln were top) we sat off, held firm and counter attacked with solid defending and a great team effort.
The players in both these performances showed they are more than capable of performing home and away against low and high rated teams.
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Post by utg4eva on Nov 23, 2020 21:04:02 GMT
It was actually the same team in both games.
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Post by utg4eva on Nov 23, 2020 21:05:47 GMT
Just checked again and that same 11 then drew with Burton and won at Shrewsbury all in October
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Post by WeAreTheGas on Nov 23, 2020 21:06:15 GMT
Our best performances home and away we’re against Northampton and Lincoln respectively. Northampton at home on the 3rd October we dominated possession (60%) and had 18 odd shots with 2-0 flattering them (josh hare hit the bar, Hanlan and Nicholson golden chances Lincoln away the following Saturday (Lincoln were top) we sat off, held firm and counter attacked with solid defending and a great team effort. The players in both these performances showed they are more than capable of performing home and away against low and high rated teams. Not so sure about Northampton having been a particularly impressive performance tbh. They were a dire side and there was nothing in the match in terms of chance creation until they had a man sent off on 60 minutes - after which we were able to take control & put them under more pressure. 11 v 11 there was nothing in the game apart from Hanlan’s penalty.
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Post by utg4eva on Nov 23, 2020 21:08:27 GMT
Point is the same starting 11 Won 3, Drew 1 and lost 1 last month in the league!
That was less than 4 weeks ago.
Start that same 11 surely? They are proven in league 1 to get results. 10 points out of 15!!
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Post by RD on Nov 23, 2020 21:09:25 GMT
Our best performances home and away we’re against Northampton and Lincoln respectively. Northampton at home on the 3rd October we dominated possession (60%) and had 18 odd shots with 2-0 flattering them (josh hare hit the bar, Hanlan and Nicholson golden chances Lincoln away the following Saturday (Lincoln were top) we sat off, held firm and counter attacked with solid defending and a great team effort. The players in both these performances showed they are more than capable of performing home and away against low and high rated teams. Not so sure about Northampton having been a particularly impressive performance tbh. They were a dire side and there was nothing in the match in terms of chance creation until they had a man sent off on 60 minutes - after which we were able to take control & put them under more pressure. 11 v 11 there was nothing in the game apart from Hanlan’s penalty. Spot on
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Post by utg4eva on Nov 23, 2020 21:10:33 GMT
Our best performances home and away we’re against Northampton and Lincoln respectively. Northampton at home on the 3rd October we dominated possession (60%) and had 18 odd shots with 2-0 flattering them (josh hare hit the bar, Hanlan and Nicholson golden chances Lincoln away the following Saturday (Lincoln were top) we sat off, held firm and counter attacked with solid defending and a great team effort. The players in both these performances showed they are more than capable of performing home and away against low and high rated teams. Not so sure about Northampton having been a particularly impressive performance tbh. They were a dire side and there was nothing in the match in terms of chance creation until they had a man sent off on 60 minutes - after which we were able to take control & put them under more pressure. 11 v 11 there was nothing in the game apart from Hanlan’s penalty. First 50 minutes of Hull we were as good as them and Westbrooke missed an easy chance. That’s football...we got 3 points against Northampton and 0 points against Hull.
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Post by WeAreTheGas on Nov 23, 2020 21:13:47 GMT
Not so sure about Northampton having been a particularly impressive performance tbh. They were a dire side and there was nothing in the match in terms of chance creation until they had a man sent off on 60 minutes - after which we were able to take control & put them under more pressure. 11 v 11 there was nothing in the game apart from Hanlan’s penalty. First 50 minutes of Hull we were as good as them and Westbrooke missed an easy chance. That’s football...we got 3 points against Northampton and 0 points against Hull. I’m not disputing that, I’m disputing that good result (Northampton) = good performance. Personally I’d say our best home performance so far this season was arguably against Peterborough, as we more than held our own in chance creation against a very strong & dangerous side and only lost to two worldies.
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 23, 2020 21:14:14 GMT
I think that's the issue, long term plans are great but you do need to win football matches in the meantime. When we signed Andy Rammell I don't think anyone was asking about his sell on? It's all about a healthy mix, while I'd love 11 under 23 year old Bristolians playing for Rovers with 3 of them being sold in January for £10m each it's simply not viable. Even Alex Ferguson's "kids" had Schmeichel, Bruce, Irwin, Cantona & McClair make well over 20 appearances each. I very much agree with the keenness of the board for the club to give lots of opportunities to young players so that we can increase transfer sales as revenue source for the club but personally I think we’re going the wrong way about it. We currently play 8-9 players every week that are under 25. However, despite this trust in younger players, I don’t think in this current form we’re ever going to make as much on sales of young players than the likes of Peterborough and Fleetwood. Their approach is to play with 5-6 wily, experienced pros that have been around this level or have prior experience in the championship in their career. They will then give their manager a bit of a budget to spend on young players residing in L1, L2 and the National League that their scouting department has flagged as having a lot of potential. Those players then develop by getting regular first team football playing alongside the experienced professionals that they take confidence from and learn off of. Look at posh for example, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the likes of Kent, Dembele, Eisa, Pym will make Posh more money than Harries, Daly, Koiki, Grant will ever make for us. Coughlan, who is regarded as a bit of a football dinosaur and someone who favoured his senior pros, got far more out of the likes of Hargreaves and Kilgour than Garner ever did because he gave them consistent first team football and played them alongside the likes of Craig, Upson, Ogogo, Rodman, who they could learn from. Made us a lot more competitive in the short term too. Axe, I agree with your point about experience and the ability Posh have to make money on sales. But I am struggling to think of which Fleetwood players have been sold to make much money. I tried to think who and I can’t think of any. I may be totally wrong and have forgotten so I stand to be corrected. UTG!
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Post by utg4eva on Nov 23, 2020 21:18:40 GMT
First 50 minutes of Hull we were as good as them and Westbrooke missed an easy chance. That’s football...we got 3 points against Northampton and 0 points against Hull. I’m not disputing that, I’m disputing that good result (Northampton) = good performance. Personally I’d say our best home performance so far this season was arguably against Peterborough, as we more than held our own in chance creation against a very dangerous side & only lost to two worldies. Ok, fair enough. So let’s take the 10 points out a possible 15 in 5 league games of October. Regardless of opinion or which formation or who we don’t like and do like etc that can’t be a fluke or luck. 10 points in 15 is playoff form and the same 11 started every game. Surely we stick with those lads, give them confidence and push forward? My stats are correct, certain football is an acquired taste but stats don’t lie
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 21:24:25 GMT
Not so sure about Northampton having been a particularly impressive performance tbh. They were a dire side and there was nothing in the match in terms of chance creation until they had a man sent off on 60 minutes - after which we were able to take control & put them under more pressure. 11 v 11 there was nothing in the game apart from Hanlan’s penalty. First 50 minutes of Hull we were as good as them and Westbrooke missed an easy chance. That’s football...we got 3 points against Northampton and 0 points against Hull. Hull had the old pipe and slippers out in the first half. When they went through the gears we couldn’t live with them. The defending was absolutely bloody awful.
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Post by utg4eva on Nov 23, 2020 21:34:59 GMT
It was 2-1 until late on when balders dropped a short one to Anssi in the 95th minute.
We had 2 shots on target and they had 4 with possession fairly even.
It was incredibly close until then and we were on the back of a 5 game unbeaten run.
What more do you want, Jam on it?
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Post by playtowin on Nov 23, 2020 21:41:21 GMT
I think to do well in this league you need 2 players in midfield who will tackle and bully and run around closing down a lot. That allows the flair players in the team to do what they do best. Win the midfield battle and you run the game. Which is why with only Grant and possibly liddle as defensive midfielders and only Hargreaves as a run around type the squad seems weak and easily over run. This is why upson has found himself in the team as he has some defensive abilities. When Grant reaches his yellow card limit the team is screwed. It may be that with a midfield 3 we will need to see someone like Tutonda change roles. The best success rovers have had in league one this century was with clarke/ogogo/another. Or pritchard/mauge/another. I wouldn't describe Reece Brown and Jack Taylor as players who just "tackle and bully and run around closing down a lot." Both are good footballers capable of playing, scoring a goal and creating. Peterborough are in an automatic promotion place. And when did they play for Rovers ?
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Post by pirate on Nov 23, 2020 21:45:23 GMT
I wouldn't describe Reece Brown and Jack Taylor as players who just "tackle and bully and run around closing down a lot." Both are good footballers capable of playing, scoring a goal and creating. Peterborough are in an automatic promotion place. And when did they play for Rovers ? I never said they have. I was responding to the original point saying "I think to do well in this league you need 2 players in midfield who will tackle and bully and run around closing down a lot."
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Post by singupgas on Nov 23, 2020 21:51:27 GMT
I am not too surprised, I think we all got excited by the number of player brought in, without really knowing their quality.
What I want to see is 100% effort from now on, PT has to install some grit in this side fast. I would hope he demands it, we have been too nice and are bit of a pushover aren't we.
There is still long way to go, but I do hope the players can pick themselves up, brush themselves down and get f'ing at it sharpish.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 23:33:19 GMT
It was 2-1 until late on when balders dropped a short one to Anssi in the 95th minute. We had 2 shots on target and they had 4 with possession fairly even. It was incredibly close until then and we were on the back of a 5 game unbeaten run. What more do you want, Jam on it? I thought we played well first half, but the difference in class was very clear in the second half and looking at how easily they opened up a 2 goal margin it puts our first half performance into context- we were playing a Hull team that weren’t at the races. The manager made the triple sub and it was game over after that. You’re sounding like Garner, clinging to all the stats apart from the one that matters: Rovers 1 - Hull 3 and it was a pretty fair reflection given how badly we defended all 3 goals.
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Post by axegas on Nov 23, 2020 23:58:31 GMT
I very much agree with the keenness of the board for the club to give lots of opportunities to young players so that we can increase transfer sales as revenue source for the club but personally I think we’re going the wrong way about it. We currently play 8-9 players every week that are under 25. However, despite this trust in younger players, I don’t think in this current form we’re ever going to make as much on sales of young players than the likes of Peterborough and Fleetwood. Their approach is to play with 5-6 wily, experienced pros that have been around this level or have prior experience in the championship in their career. They will then give their manager a bit of a budget to spend on young players residing in L1, L2 and the National League that their scouting department has flagged as having a lot of potential. Those players then develop by getting regular first team football playing alongside the experienced professionals that they take confidence from and learn off of. Look at posh for example, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the likes of Kent, Dembele, Eisa, Pym will make Posh more money than Harries, Daly, Koiki, Grant will ever make for us. Coughlan, who is regarded as a bit of a football dinosaur and someone who favoured his senior pros, got far more out of the likes of Hargreaves and Kilgour than Garner ever did because he gave them consistent first team football and played them alongside the likes of Craig, Upson, Ogogo, Rodman, who they could learn from. Made us a lot more competitive in the short term too. Axe, I agree with your point about experience and the ability Posh have to make money on sales. But I am struggling to think of which Fleetwood players have been sold to make much money. I tried to think who and I can’t think of any. I may be totally wrong and have forgotten so I stand to be corrected. UTG! I meant it in terms of looking forward, they’ve got the likes of Jordan Rossiter, Callum Camps, Sam Finley, Sam Stubbs, who I can see making them some decent profits on in the future and they’ll all benefit from the experience of the likes of Glenn Whelan, Marc Duffy, Charlie Mulgrew. Fleetwood beat Plymouth 5-1 last game on top of easily beating us, can see them being in the playoff hunt this year.
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