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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 21, 2021 15:34:17 GMT
Small steps, doesn't have to be everyone all the time. If we wait until everyone is on board then nothing will be done. Lead by example and gradually people will understand and realise. Can't agree to that. It'll take a lot more to stop the mega oil/fossil fuel industry and the hyper consumerism it enables. Are you happy to lead by example and forego any air travel, limit your water, electricity and fuel use? If yes, do you mind if your neighbor flys to Australia & New Zealand for a month then afterwards invites you into their new garden hot tub to tell you all about it? Bit of a strawman argument. For what it's worth I haven't flown in years and I'd save money on the gas and electricity under your example. My neighboUr wouldn't invite me anyway, he's a miserable git. 😁
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 15:34:39 GMT
How do you persuade all of the people in to making these small changes? Who's stopping someone from taking two baths a day, driving everywhere or not recycling their plastic bottles etc... There are lots of idiots who think that being forced to take ecological measures is an affront to their 'freedoms'. In a sense you don’t. You focus on technological developments and industry regulations that protect the environment and one day the types of people you are on about will live in insulated homes, drive electric cars, use sustainable energy, all without being realised they’ve been led in that particular direction. I think it’s so much easier to force more environmentally friendly products on the consumer than it is to enforce Covid safety measures on the population as long as such products don’t particularly affect quality in any way. Sounds great in principle, but have seen very little evidence of that happening in the UK, profits always take priority. Yes there are some small changes talked about, but they're always at the governments whim to change them when they see fit.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Oct 21, 2021 15:36:05 GMT
Disagree with the o p.
Unilaterally regionalism will have virtually no effect......if the whole world did at one time, it might have a marginal minimal effect, but when you consider (just one example off top of head) American teams fly to play each other, a trip to Colchester and Bradford in one week blends into insignificance...
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Post by gulfofaden on Oct 21, 2021 15:39:55 GMT
One of the things which is particularly difficult for me is that I’m in a mixed nationality marriage with relatives around the world. We would have to choose where to live. In reality what will happen is flights will become the preserve of the wealthy and NGOs governments etc (as will things like meat, and your children will be so eager to please those with the keys to those luxuries)
The rest of us, they want us living locally. Attached to our little feudal lands.
As I say, innovation is crucial as it is a horrific vision of the future in current form. I’d almost take the superheated planet over going back to living like the peasantry
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Post by gashead1981 on Oct 21, 2021 15:46:02 GMT
A few weeks back I had the opportunity to spend some time in the company of a government minister of the opposition purely on a business matter. Now I have little time for politicians or their manifestos as most of them are bull faced liars and any ones persons ideology is flawed no matter which side of the electoral fence you sit. However the conversation turned to environmental impact of certain industries and what could be done to kerb emmisions etc. One interesting stat he pulled was that the UK was only actually responsible for around 1.5% of the worlds total greenhouse emmisions. But he also said we were guilty of some fairly horrendous practices where we pass on a lot of our problems to poorer or third world countries and their economies so likely the amount was closer to 2.5%. But he said the UK has an obligation as one of the world powers to set the example to countries like the USA, China, Russia and developing industrial nations. A small island country in the north atlantic cant do it all on its own but it will be a collective effort from the whole world to rectify the issue. Which is why, before the world commits to a project, and ill use EV as an example, to look at where the raw material comes from, how its dug from the earths surface, the lasting impact of that to the environment, the sustainability of that raw material, together with its end of life recyclability, reuse or biodegrading impact. This is why i am predominantly against EV. To change the worlds infrastructure to EV is an environmental diaster in itself, the way lithium ion ore is mined is a humanitarian disaster in waiting, the life cycle of the end product is short compared to internal combustion and how are we to dispose of millions of batteries in years to come that are encased in unrecyclable plastics? And yet the worlds governments are insisting its the way forward so are pushing the manufacturers to adopt the idea. If you could apply that logic across every industry instead then the 50 year target might be met and you wouldnt go through the 15-20 year tail chasing of realising what we are creating now is actually a bad idea and needs to be stopped. Just on your point about electric vehicles, I did read a report the other day where researchers in Estonia had found a way to make Sodium ion batteries with the potential to power a car out of Peat, which contains organic materials and is fairly easy and cheap to extract. Now I don’t think that technology is very advanced and it seems the lithium component will be in electric car batteries for a little while longer yet but research into Sodium batteries has so far from what I can tell been very promising. I also believe there have also been lithium mines that have been opened in places such as Australia, where there are stricter labour laws in place. So I do think there is merit in transitioning across from fossil fuels to electric powered vehicles with the anticipation that technologies will limit and prevent the unethical practice and regulation of lithium mining in certain parts of the world so that we can start tackling carbon emissions in a meaningful way. Yes sodium ion is an alternative strategy but the tech is probably 5-10 years away from being mainstreamed by which time hydrogen, which has been around since the early 2000s will likely have a firm foot in the door. I do think there is room for EV in the car market place, maybe in smaller city vehicles, but infrastructure and cost of product outweighs any benefits currently. Someone I know bought a Tesla model 6 in 2016 at the on the road cost of £80,000. 3 years and 40k miles later he chopped it for the latests Model 3. At PX they gave him £27k for the model 6 and the OTR cost of the Model 3 with his optional extras added was £57k. So net cash depreciation was £83,000. If you factor an average running cost of £1.50 per mile if you were running a hybrid vehicle against that depreciation as a cost saving its somewhere around £27k over the 3 years but that still leaves a net depreciation of £56k just to drive an EV. To me thats utter madness and there is no way that everyone can afford that kind of outlay or would enjoy sucking up that loss.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 15:58:05 GMT
One of the things which is particularly difficult for me is that I’m in a mixed nationality marriage with relatives around the world. We would have to choose where to live. In reality what will happen is flights will become the preserve of the wealthy and NGOs governments etc (as will things like meat, and your children will be so eager to please those with the keys to those luxuries) The rest of us, they want us living locally. Attached to our little feudal lands. As I say, innovation is crucial as it is a horrific vision of the future in current form. I’d almost take the superheated planet over going back to living like the peasantry Feudalism, lords and peasants was replaced by employer and employee. So many people are still peasants really. There was a study recently which demonstrated that medieval peasants had a better standard of life than most modern day workers.
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Post by aghast on Oct 21, 2021 17:00:05 GMT
What's going to happen to all those used EVs with batteries drained and kaput after 8 years or so? People will buy a new or nearly new car rather than fork out £5,000 for a new battery in an oldish car. So we'll have millions of dumped, unsellable cars as well as millions of toxic polluting batteries.
Hydrogen has got to be the way forward for me, but EVs seem to have built up an unstoppable head of steam, so to speak.
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Post by trevorgas on Oct 21, 2021 17:04:50 GMT
One of the things which is particularly difficult for me is that I’m in a mixed nationality marriage with relatives around the world. We would have to choose where to live. In reality what will happen is flights will become the preserve of the wealthy and NGOs governments etc (as will things like meat, and your children will be so eager to please those with the keys to those luxuries) The rest of us, they want us living locally. Attached to our little feudal lands. As I say, innovation is crucial as it is a horrific vision of the future in current form. I’d almost take the superheated planet over going back to living like the peasantry Feudalism, lords and peasants was replaced by employer and employee. So many people are still peasants really. There was a study recently which demonstrated that medieval peasants had a better standard of life than most modern day workers. I can't believe there is any shred of evidence to support that assertion,if it was correct why was life expectancy in the low 30s??
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Post by aghast on Oct 21, 2021 17:13:01 GMT
Feudalism, lords and peasants was replaced by employer and employee. So many people are still peasants really. There was a study recently which demonstrated that medieval peasants had a better standard of life than most modern day workers. I can't believe there is any shred of evidence to support that assertion,if it was correct why was life expectancy in the low 30s?? It's just possible they had a healthier diet, but no way a better standard of life. No healthcare, no education, no benefits, no votes, no nothing really.
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Post by bobbyjones on Oct 21, 2021 17:16:30 GMT
Football Forum ?.
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Post by trevorgas on Oct 21, 2021 17:20:46 GMT
I can't believe there is any shred of evidence to support that assertion,if it was correct why was life expectancy in the low 30s?? It's just possible they had a healthier diet, but no way a better standard of life. No healthcare, no education, no benefits, no votes, no nothing really. No football, oh hold on a minute. ....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 17:38:14 GMT
I can't believe there is any shred of evidence to support that assertion,if it was correct why was life expectancy in the low 30s?? It's just possible they had a healthier diet, but no way a better standard of life. No healthcare, no education, no benefits, no votes, no nothing really. Can't remember where I read the article/thread. Peasants only worked something like half a year, they'd have revolted if anymore and the church supported them... Plus the lord's had to keep them relatively healthy/happy as they were difficult to replace. The peasants were also crucial to the nation's armies during war/crusades.
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Post by gulfofaden on Oct 21, 2021 17:50:47 GMT
It's just possible they had a healthier diet, but no way a better standard of life. No healthcare, no education, no benefits, no votes, no nothing really. Can't remember where I read the article/thread. Peasants only worked something like half a year, they'd have revolted if anymore and the church supported them... Plus the lord's had to keep them relatively healthy/happy as they were difficult to replace. The peasants were also crucial to the nation's armies during war/crusades. This was most pronounced after the plagues. The best increases in living standards were when labour was scarce. The other thing to note is we always had guildsmen. They’re like the contractors of today. While nobles may wage pointless war, and peasant till land and waste their lives in drink, there’s always a class in the middle holding things together and actually making sure things are built, produced and work. This was very much the brilliance of Blackadder. Blackadder is very much a story of the long suffering middle classes and tradesmen who had idiots below them and wealthy idiots above them. As Blackadder said “the best we can hope for is to make a bit of cash” Oh, and I suppose this is like the long suffering midfielder. Just to ensure this is football related ;-) UTG
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Post by Gas-Ed on Oct 21, 2021 17:51:26 GMT
As a keen meat-eater myself, I know that the way to save the planet is to stop eating meat. Stopping football fans travelling up and down the country is like throwing a deckchair off the titanic.
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Post by aghast on Oct 21, 2021 19:32:42 GMT
A fair point perhaps from others, but not from someone who insists our owner is part of an evil duo who aim to destroy the club. That is total fantasy and you are an annoying idiot. Oh, sorry your posts are idiotic. You are just annoying me.
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Post by richmace on Oct 21, 2021 20:14:29 GMT
I think the idea of a North / South lower leagues is in principle a good idea. You will, however have situations like two midlands teams in different divisions. We would play the same teams more often, but I like the idea of shared playoffs. In American Football, they have small leagues but you also play teams from other leagues, on a predetermined rota.
I know that little Bristol Rovers / English League Two will not make much of an impact in a global sense, but you have to start somewhere. Every little helps, as they say. Set a positive example, and others will copy.
This was one of the motivational factors for me giving up my car and cycling to work and The Mem. I imagine my carbon footprint is a lot smaller than it was. As a result of my actions, other people at work are now cycling once or twice a week. I am activity encouraging this.
It should be a snowball effect, starting small but growing in a positive way.
Anything that can be done to help should be encouraged. Travelling great distances unnecessarily should be discouraged, not just for leisure, but for business as well.
I agree with the opinion that electric cars are not the solution. We are just creating a new problem. My personal belief is that Hydrogen fuel cells are the future. The solution most likely has not been imagined yet.
I would also not be quick to judge Science. Any predictions are just that, predictions based on a model. Models get refined and improved as the quantity and quality of data improves. Science ultimately will provide solutions, coupled with the will to make change happen.
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Post by dragonfly on Oct 21, 2021 20:39:56 GMT
Climate has always changed and long before the industrial revolution began around 1850. Co2 historically has risen well above levels of today and fallen well below as well and long before man came about. Therefore why demonise Co2 which is our friend and one that we cannot exist without. We need Co2 to grow crops and the higher the levels the greater the crop yield. If you reduce Co2 and the Earth cooled by as little as 2 degrees centigrade the colder World would significantly impact the Human race with lower crop yields and the risk of widespread famine and food riots. History tells us that this did occur during the worst years of the Little Ice Age which diminished after Around 1850. The one degree or so rise in temperature since then is probably a rebound from the Little Ice Age. Tell Greta the World is not about to end.
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Post by legas on Oct 21, 2021 21:01:10 GMT
If after 2 years we still haven’t sorted out our striker problem, f@ck knows how long it will take us to sort out climate change.
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Post by aghast on Oct 21, 2021 21:37:13 GMT
Climate has always changed and long before the industrial revolution began around 1850. Co2 historically has risen well above levels of today and fallen well below as well and long before man came about. Therefore why demonise Co2 which is our friend and one that we cannot exist without. We need Co2 to grow crops and the higher the levels the greater the crop yield. If you reduce Co2 and the Earth cooled by as little as 2 degrees centigrade the colder World would significantly impact the Human race with lower crop yields and the risk of widespread famine and food riots. History tells us that this did occur during the worst years of the Little Ice Age which diminished after Around 1850. The one degree or so rise in temperature since then is probably a rebound from the Little Ice Age. Tell Greta the World is not about to end. Well that's a relief. I'll write to the world's leading scientists and tell them the good news, since they were a bit pessimistic.
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 21, 2021 22:15:23 GMT
Climate has always changed and long before the industrial revolution began around 1850. Co2 historically has risen well above levels of today and fallen well below as well and long before man came about. Therefore why demonise Co2 which is our friend and one that we cannot exist without. We need Co2 to grow crops and the higher the levels the greater the crop yield. If you reduce Co2 and the Earth cooled by as little as 2 degrees centigrade the colder World would significantly impact the Human race with lower crop yields and the risk of widespread famine and food riots. History tells us that this did occur during the worst years of the Little Ice Age which diminished after Around 1850. The one degree or so rise in temperature since then is probably a rebound from the Little Ice Age. Tell Greta the World is not about to end. I'm sure you believe that, however during the little ice age temperatures were at most only about 0.5°C cooler than the early 20th century whereas temperatures have risen by a full 1°C over the past 120 years, and 0.7°C over just the past 40 years. The Industrial Revolution started almost a century before your 1850 date, add to that huge population growth, deforestation, etc. CO2 is important, it's the levels we are referring to, releasing stored CO2 in the form of coal, oil and gas has increased the amount in the atmosphere by 50% over pre industrial levels. We aren't reducing CO2 in the atmosphere so your concern doesn't arise, lowering by 2 degrees won't happen anytime soon. The 1 degree is not a "rebound". skepticalscience.com/coming-out-of-little-ice-age.htmwww.scientificamerican.com/article/ask-the-experts-does-rising-co2-benefit-plants1/
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