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Post by Gassy on Dec 12, 2021 21:14:43 GMT
A thread on how the appeal process works btw
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Post by Gassy on Dec 12, 2021 21:17:54 GMT
I agree that Hamilton did gain an advantage at the beginning, although apparently he did lift off to close the gap (not sure I saw that though). Never would have happened if Max didn't force him off the track, as usual though. As for evening themselves up, thats a silly comment. It's like me stepping on your foot and you shoot me in the face and saying, 'well, it's 1-1 now right?'. It was an aggressive move by JV but at that same corner later in the race 2 drivers were involved on the same move and both stayed on track as one yielded. That was never going to happen in the LH JV as both were fighting for a title and personally I don't blame either of them. But the rules stated he went off track and gained an unfair advantage so has to give the place back. He never gave back the advantage he gained even though the stewards said he did. JV? His dad is racing now too? I don't agree that he needed to give it back, because Lewis was in front. Just because you dive in breaking late and heavy doesn't mean you now have right of way. As soon as Masi told RedBull 'no' to giving the place back (which really they never had) they argued he should lessen the gap, which is the right thing that should have happened. Apparently he did, but I don't believe it - like yourself.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Dec 12, 2021 21:18:47 GMT
You would also think a man in Masi’s position would know that one driver on brand new tyres Vs a driver on tyres that had done 45+ laps is no level playing field for a last lap sprint. The “It’s called racing” quip really must have twisted the knife for Toto. It is still unbelievable the guy has chosen at the very end of the race season to disregard the entire weekend’s events in some bizarre pursuit of an ‘epic finish’. If he wants a grandstand finish the red flag it and let them restart ffs. Just look at the Giovinazzi incident, it actually took him 45 seconds to bring out the VSC. It was clear from the beginning ffs it was needed. The bloke is incapable. Makes L2 referees look world class tbh Absolutely. Red flag would have been the right thing to do. Someone on the Sky ex drivers team asked him what he would do in this circumstance before the race and he said he’d put out a safety car. So it sounded as if he was trying to follow precedent. As for Hamilton not seen anyone pick up on this but in his post race interview he said ‘we’ll see’ when talking about competing next season (or something paraphrased along those lines) so I wonder if he might retire after this.
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Post by axegas on Dec 12, 2021 21:20:23 GMT
This wasn’t mentioned on the commentary but from I’ve picked up from afterwards is that the legal issue revolves around the fact the FIA said that the lapped cars between Verstappen and Hamilton could unlap themselves however the three lapped cars behind Verstappen weren’t allowed to unlap themselves as the rules state they should have been able to as the race clark instructed. Obviously had they unlapped themselves, there wouldn’t have been a full lap for Hamilton and Verstappen to race each other. So basically the FIA twisted their own rules mid race to allow for a finale where one driver was at a clear disadvantage. This is what will go to CAS to decide and it’s hard not think that Mercedes have a compelling case. It’s a complete farce. Apparently, according to a mate who's in karting, the CAS will only get involved in things to do with doping. The appeal from Merc will go to the FIA Court of Appeal. So expect nothing. Yeah I had read that CAS has varying degrees of influence over the decisions of different sporting bodies. A weird one but I suppose we are talking about sports rather than actual legal matters.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Dec 12, 2021 21:20:28 GMT
It was an aggressive move by JV but at that same corner later in the race 2 drivers were involved on the same move and both stayed on track as one yielded. That was never going to happen in the LH JV as both were fighting for a title and personally I don't blame either of them. But the rules stated he went off track and gained an unfair advantage so has to give the place back. He never gave back the advantage he gained even though the stewards said he did. JV? His dad is racing now too? I don't agree that he needed to give it back, because Lewis was in front. Just because you dive in breaking late and heavy doesn't mean you now have right of way. As soon as Masi told RedBull 'no' to giving the place back (which really they never had) they argued he should lessen the gap, which is the right thing that should have happened. Apparently he did, but I don't believe it - like yourself. Problem is I’m convinced this whole precedence of giving places back has been set. It doesn’t seem very ‘let them race’ Bring back the gravel then there will be no arguments about this.
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Post by Gassy on Dec 12, 2021 21:25:39 GMT
If he wants a grandstand finish the red flag it and let them restart ffs. Just look at the Giovinazzi incident, it actually took him 45 seconds to bring out the VSC. It was clear from the beginning ffs it was needed. The bloke is incapable. Makes L2 referees look world class tbh Absolutely. Red flag would have been the right thing to do. Someone on the Sky ex drivers team asked him what he would do in this circumstance before the race and he said he’d put out a safety car. So it sounded as if he was trying to follow precedent. As for Hamilton not seen anyone pick up on this but in his post race interview he said ‘we’ll see’ when talking about competing next season (or something paraphrased along those lines) so I wonder if he might retire after this. On Hamilton, I did notice that actually and said it to the missus. I'm sure it's just a bit of a knee jerk reaction though, at the time I told myself I will never watch F1 again and already I'm a bit less watered. Technically he is under contract for next year, but I'm sure he could tear that up if he really wanted.
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Post by Gassy on Dec 12, 2021 21:27:54 GMT
JV? His dad is racing now too? I don't agree that he needed to give it back, because Lewis was in front. Just because you dive in breaking late and heavy doesn't mean you now have right of way. As soon as Masi told RedBull 'no' to giving the place back (which really they never had) they argued he should lessen the gap, which is the right thing that should have happened. Apparently he did, but I don't believe it - like yourself. Problem is I’m convinced this whole precedence of giving places back has been set. It doesn’t seem very ‘let them race’ Bring back the gravel then there will be no arguments about this. Ironically if there was gravel and he forced him off there then Lewis would be out and Max would have been deducted points (as Masi warned in advance) that putting each other out of the race will not mean you actually win. Best thing here is to get rid of Masi, rewrite the rule book together and get rid of grey areas - black and white only. We have a huge overhaul this winter in F1 so it would be natural timing to change how its managed too
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Post by axegas on Dec 12, 2021 21:28:26 GMT
If he wants a grandstand finish the red flag it and let them restart ffs. Just look at the Giovinazzi incident, it actually took him 45 seconds to bring out the VSC. It was clear from the beginning ffs it was needed. The bloke is incapable. Makes L2 referees look world class tbh Absolutely. Red flag would have been the right thing to do. Someone on the Sky ex drivers team asked him what he would do in this circumstance before the race and he said he’d put out a safety car. So it sounded as if he was trying to follow precedent. As for Hamilton not seen anyone pick up on this but in his post race interview he said ‘we’ll see’ when talking about competing next season (or something paraphrased along those lines) so I wonder if he might retire after this. Yeah I picked that up. I think there have been times in the past where Hamilton has been very noncommittal about his future and then signed up again. I hope this is just won of these times as 8 world championships would seal his legacy as the greatest ever driver and would probably never be topped.
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Post by bridgwatergas on Dec 12, 2021 22:18:18 GMT
Absolutely. Red flag would have been the right thing to do. Someone on the Sky ex drivers team asked him what he would do in this circumstance before the race and he said he’d put out a safety car. So it sounded as if he was trying to follow precedent. As for Hamilton not seen anyone pick up on this but in his post race interview he said ‘we’ll see’ when talking about competing next season (or something paraphrased along those lines) so I wonder if he might retire after this. On Hamilton, I did notice that actually and said it to the missus. I'm sure it's just a bit of a knee jerk reaction though, at the time I told myself I will never watch F1 again and already I'm a bit less P?!sed. Technically he is under contract for next year, but I'm sure he could tear that up if he really wanted. Hopefully he stays as seeing him and George Russell in the same car with Max pushing it to the limits should make next season very exciting. With Ferrari starting to get there act together and McLaren improving at a rate of knots we could be in for an even closer championship with it being more than a two horse race.
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Post by Qatar Gas on Dec 13, 2021 4:49:56 GMT
The question is, would this have happened in a similar incident mid season? Almost certainly not.
My understanding is the options were; - Finish the race under the safety car, because there would have been no time for all the cars to unlap themselves - I understand the rules state that you can restart without the lapped cars unlapping themselves. This would have given one lap of racing to finish. This is in my opinion, what should have happened. - If they really wanted an entertaining finish they should have red flagged it so that both drivers could change their tires for one, possible even two laps if they called it early enough.
Despite the farce I've found the last few races very entertaining. I pretty much stopped watching F1 for many years for a number of reasons and started getting back into it this season. I found the Netflix documentaries very informative and the new series is surely going to be even better! I went to the Qatar race the other week and I am now very tempted to pop over to Bahrain for the season opener. I went there some years ago and remember the tickets being reasonably priced.
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Post by supergas on Dec 13, 2021 9:41:57 GMT
The question is, would this have happened in a similar incident mid season? Almost certainly not. My understanding is the options were; - Finish the race under the safety car, because there would have been no time for all the cars to unlap themselves - I understand the rules state that you can restart without the lapped cars unlapping themselves. This would have given one lap of racing to finish. This is in my opinion, what should have happened. - If they really wanted an entertaining finish they should have red flagged it so that both drivers could change their tires for one, possible even two laps if they called it early enough. Despite the farce I've found the last few races very entertaining. I pretty much stopped watching F1 for many years for a number of reasons and started getting back into it this season. I found the Netflix documentaries very informative and the new series is surely going to be even better! I went to the Qatar race the other week and I am now very tempted to pop over to Bahrain for the season opener. I went there some years ago and remember the tickets being reasonably priced. I hadn't thought about the Red flag option, so including that there seem to be three solutions under the rules (and based on precedent from previous races) - yet somehow they came up with a fourth option that nobody was expecting and I think everyone will agree has corrupted the result. I don't know how much money is bet on F1, but if rules/laws were applied in this kind of way in many other sports (Cricket, boxing and horse racing spring to mind) many people would be talking about some kind of fixing to win a lot of money.....
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Dec 14, 2021 8:28:29 GMT
I'm only very casually interested in motor racing but this whole season and especially the last race showcases everything that's wrong with F1.
sh** stewards, nitpicking rules and more talk off the track than racing on it.
Basket case of a "sport" to the casual viewer.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Dec 14, 2021 22:02:21 GMT
I'm only very casually interested in motor racing but this whole season and especially the last race showcases everything that's wrong with F1. sh** stewards, nitpicking rules and more talk off the track than racing on it. Basket case of a "sport" to the casual viewer. Sounds not too different from being a gashead 😂
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Post by gashead1981 on Dec 15, 2021 9:46:44 GMT
I've had to take a few days to calm down to get over this one.
Firstly, I have absolute no gripe in Max winning it. Hes a talented lad, a verciforous competitor, blindingly fast and shares a trait with all the great Champions and drivers we remember as being greats as being that in that he is able to extract performance out of cars that others may struggle to do so. He is certainly in the same bracket as Mansell, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton of the modern era that are able to do this.
However, I dont like all of his tactics as a driver and as someone who has sat in racing cars and competed (to a good standard internationaly but not in any formula class) for the better part of 20 years, many times I see it from the drivers perspective as being utterly brilliant or over the line. Max often crosses that line or often his ego gets the better of him where the percentage game would be better played. The percentage game will something that will come with age and experience. Hamilton was once the balls to the wall racer that Max was but around 2012 after he missed out on a world title there he modifed his approach when he realised playing the long game is often better than proving a point in the moment.
So onto the race and Turn 7:
Max took a fair lunge at Hamilton however it was late and the radius of the red bull was nowhere near the actual apex of the corner or the racing line for the following right as he understeered wide into Hamiltons path. We have all got an opinion on this sort of move but as racers will tell you the world over, you cannot lunge alongside with no real hope of making the apex, push someone else wide or into avoiding action and then claim the position because you were fully alongside as you were slithering wide. It doesnt work like that. Max has been happy to repeat these kind of moves simply because of his advantage of leading the world championship, knowing that a clash with Hamilton only serves his ambition greater and the opposite for Hamilton hence him being slightly more cautious in combat.
Max simply would not take T7 in that manner usually and if Hamilton hadn't bailed, there would have been a collison anyway. Hamilton reduced the advantage gained to 0.5 second through sector 2 and I see no need why he shouyld have conceeded the position to Max. The clean pass from Max was never on from the distance in which he tried to overtake. Race control were correct to play on.
The race was really a masterclass in management by Lewis, even with a fresh set of hards Verstappen couldnt make them work and Merc were right to keep Hamilton out at that point. Abu Dabi has always usually been a one stop race with track position being key so it was the right call.
So then Latifi had his accident and the SC was deployed. Why didnt Lewis pit was the question many people asked? Well the answer was in the gap that Hamilton had to MV at that point and that MV had the advantage of doing the opposite to Hamilton. The gap to Max when the SC was deployed was 11.5 seconds, it takes 14 seconds under the SC to make a stop, so had Max stayed out he would have taken the lead. What if then a red flag was shown (as in SA or they had run the race under the SC (as which should have happened) then Merc would have looked pretty stupid for that call. So they didnt have the luxury of pitting Hamilton.
Now here is the gripe. The SC rules have always followed the same pattern pretty much since 1993. Initally lapped cars stayed where they were, but then teams complained that under restart, they didnt get out of the way quick enough and the leader maintained too much of an advantage. So the rules were changed to move all of the lapped runners aside, for them to retain their positions thus getting their lap back and levelling the playing field for all. Once the lapped cars have passed and caught the pack again, the SC is then released to the pitlane and green flag racing resumes. Those SC proceedures have never been broken in the entire history of the sport where the SC has been used.
Now I appreciate there are lots of new fans to the sport, there is netflix and social media and there is pressure for drama etc etc. But this is still professional sport where there are rules that are followed and Micheal Masi broke those rules or bent them at the very least to serve that purpose. All the other 21 races have followed the rules as above and we are told by the FIA that no one race event takes more precedent or is no more important than another. Each event follows the same rules, has the same scoring system and has the same distance. To then break away from those rules just to have a 1 lap shoot out, regardless of what bias you may hold, what drama you want to create is utterly stupid and makes a mockery of the previous 21 races.
If you are saying that no rules apply and 1 lap takes all, what is the point the other 21 races and 57 laps? Its utterly pointless. That is my biggest gripe. Its similar to a world cup final penalty shoot out and the referee ordering retakes of a penalty kicks to ensure its equal going into the sudden death shoot out.
The rules are written to level the playing field, to give everyone a fair crack and sometimes they work to your advantage and sometimes they do not. Usually if they dont its because you havent been good enough across the season or through a game to deserve it and thats exactly the same here. Masi did not ensure there was a level playing field for firstly the leader (who deserved to have at least a level field to protect his lead that he had built over 57 laps) or for the other competitors from 6th downwards. Alonso was laughing over the team radio at the absurdity of it.
It was obvious to Masi it was going to take 4 laps or so to clear and reform the field properly. If he wanted a shoot out it should have been red flagged, everyone had the chance to change tyres and form up in the right order for a 3 lap shoot out. That would have been the fair and correct thing to do. But he bottled it under the pressure of Liberty Media and Red Bull, broke all all sorts of protocols and sporting regulations and created a sham.
As a result rather than talking about the worthy winner of the world title, whichever way it would have gone, we are talking about the controversy of it and for a global world sport, that is such a shame because both Max and Lewis deserved better. Lewis deserved the fairer shot at racing Max and Max deserves better than to have the WC called into question on the back of some very bizarre decision making.
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Post by trevorgas on Dec 15, 2021 10:40:16 GMT
I've had to take a few days to calm down to get over this one. Firstly, I have absolute no gripe in Max winning it. Hes a talented lad, a verciforous competitor, blindingly fast and shares a trait with all the great Champions and drivers we remember as being greats as being that in that he is able to extract performance out of cars that others may struggle to do so. He is certainly in the same bracket as Mansell, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton of the modern era that are able to do this. However, I dont like all of his tactics as a driver and as someone who has sat in racing cars and competed (to a good standard internationaly but not in any formula class) for the better part of 20 years, many times I see it from the drivers perspective as being utterly brilliant or over the line. Max often crosses that line or often his ego gets the better of him where the percentage game would be better played. The percentage game will something that will come with age and experience. Hamilton was once the balls to the wall racer that Max was but around 2012 after he missed out on a world title there he modifed his approach when he realised playing the long game is often better than proving a point in the moment. So onto the race and Turn 7: Max took a fair lunge at Hamilton however it was late and the radius of the red bull was nowhere near the actual apex of the corner or the racing line for the following right as he understeered wide into Hamiltons path. We have all got an opinion on this sort of move but as racers will tell you the world over, you cannot lunge alongside with no real hope of making the apex, push someone else wide or into avoiding action and then claim the position because you were fully alongside as you were slithering wide. It doesnt work like that. Max has been happy to repeat these kind of moves simply because of his advantage of leading the world championship, knowing that a clash with Hamilton only serves his ambition greater and the opposite for Hamilton hence him being slightly more cautious in combat. Max simply would not take T7 in that manner usually and if Hamilton hadn't bailed, there would have been a collison anyway. Hamilton reduced the advantage gained to 0.5 second through sector 2 and I see no need why he shouyld have conceeded the position to Max. The clean pass from Max was never on from the distance in which he tried to overtake. Race control were correct to play on. The race was really a masterclass in management by Lewis, even with a fresh set of hards Verstappen couldnt make them work and Merc were right to keep Hamilton out at that point. Abu Dabi has always usually been a one stop race with track position being key so it was the right call. So then Latifi had his accident and the SC was deployed. Why didnt Lewis pit was the question many people asked? Well the answer was in the gap that Hamilton had to MV at that point and that MV had the advantage of doing the opposite to Hamilton. The gap to Max when the SC was deployed was 11.5 seconds, it takes 14 seconds under the SC to make a stop, so had Max stayed out he would have taken the lead. What if then a red flag was shown (as in SA or they had run the race under the SC (as which should have happened) then Merc would have looked pretty stupid for that call. So they didnt have the luxury of pitting Hamilton. Now here is the gripe. The SC rules have always followed the same pattern pretty much since 1993. Initally lapped cars stayed where they were, but then teams complained that under restart, they didnt get out of the way quick enough and the leader maintained too much of an advantage. So the rules were changed to move all of the lapped runners aside, for them to retain their positions thus getting their lap back and levelling the playing field for all. Once the lapped cars have passed and caught the pack again, the SC is then released to the pitlane and green flag racing resumes. Those SC proceedures have never been broken in the entire history of the sport where the SC has been used. Now I appreciate there are lots of new fans to the sport, there is netflix and social media and there is pressure for drama etc etc. But this is still professional sport where there are rules that are followed and Micheal Masi broke those rules or bent them at the very least to serve that purpose. All the other 21 races have followed the rules as above and we are told by the FIA that no one race event takes more precedent or is no more important than another. Each event follows the same rules, has the same scoring system and has the same distance. To then break away from those rules just to have a 1 lap shoot out, regardless of what bias you may hold, what drama you want to create is utterly stupid and makes a mockery of the previous 21 races. If you are saying that no rules apply and 1 lap takes all, what is the point the other 21 races and 57 laps? Its utterly pointless. That is my biggest gripe. Its similar to a world cup final penalty shoot out and the referee ordering retakes of a penalty kicks to ensure its equal going into the sudden death shoot out. The rules are written to level the playing field, to give everyone a fair crack and sometimes they work to your advantage and sometimes they do not. Usually if they dont its because you havent been good enough across the season or through a game to deserve it and thats exactly the same here. Masi did not ensure there was a level playing field for firstly the leader (who deserved to have at least a level field to protect his lead that he had built over 57 laps) or for the other competitors from 6th downwards. Alonso was laughing over the team radio at the absurdity of it. It was obvious to Masi it was going to take 4 laps or so to clear and reform the field properly. If he wanted a shoot out it should have been red flagged, everyone had the chance to change tyres and form up in the right order for a 3 lap shoot out. That would have been the fair and correct thing to do. But he bottled it under the pressure of Liberty Media and Red Bull, broke all all sorts of protocols and sporting regulations and created a sham. As a result rather than talking about the worthy winner of the world title, whichever way it would have gone, we are talking about the controversy of it and for a global world sport, that is such a shame because both Max and Lewis deserved better. Lewis deserved the fairer shot at racing Max and Max deserves better than to have the WC called into question on the back of some very bizarre decision making. Thanks for a very clear explanation of what appeared to me a layman a very complex and farcical situation, even with my limited knowledge of F 1 my gut feel was that the Race Director deliberately and knowingly concocted an ending to suit the sponsor's and a long the way completely undermined the integrity of the sport.
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