yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Oct 3, 2023 14:44:34 GMT
Conservative Party have gone full on Ukip , absolute nutters the lot of them. Dangerous wanna be fascists and Braverman the worst of the lot . To think , there’s still some on here that would vote for them 🙄
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Post by supergas on Oct 4, 2023 9:00:31 GMT
Conservative Party have gone full on Ukip , absolute nutters the lot of them. Dangerous wanna be fascists and Braverman the worst of the lot . To think , there’s still some on here that would vote for them 🙄 No idea why people would have a different opinion to you. Out of (mild) interest, why are the UK government and it's supporters "...nutters..." and "...dangerous wanna be fascists..."?
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Oct 4, 2023 9:41:24 GMT
Conservative Party have gone full on Ukip , absolute nutters the lot of them. Dangerous wanna be fascists and Braverman the worst of the lot . To think , there’s still some on here that would vote for them 🙄 No idea why people would have a different opinion to you. Out of (mild) interest, why are the UK government and it's supporters "...nutters..." and "...dangerous wanna be fascists..."? Do you support the blatant lying ? … meat taxes , 15 min cities , hurricane of migrants ( which you must find absolutely repellent being a migrant yourself) , 7 bins needed etc etc , the Brexit lies , 40 new hospitals ? They’re following a fascist playbook and if you can’t or won’t see it you’re part of the problem. Ooh and I forgot the partygate lies 🙄
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 4, 2023 9:53:47 GMT
Andy Street is reported to be on resignation watch over HS2.
Rumour of it being dropped, almost confirmed by Grant Shapps, in favour of a wider package of measures in the region of £30bn.
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Post by supergas on Oct 4, 2023 10:27:28 GMT
No idea why people would have a different opinion to you. Out of (mild) interest, why are the UK government and it's supporters "...nutters..." and "...dangerous wanna be fascists..."? Do you support the blatant lying ? … meat taxes , 15 min cities , hurricane of migrants ( which you must find absolutely repellent being a migrant yourself) , 7 bins needed etc etc , the Brexit lies , 40 new hospitals ? They’re following a fascist playbook and if you can’t or won’t see it you’re part of the problem. Ooh and I forgot the partygate lies 🙄 ...you're not wrong in that I did emigrate for personal reasons and would actively encourage anyone thinking of doing the same to follow me. If they meet all the legal criteria and can afford the cost (for me it was around £3500 for the visa) plus the flights (£1250) and shipping furniture/possessions (1475) then it's a good choice.... ...all of that money went to the government(s) or companies involved in my decision. So people earned money and paid tax on it, companies made money and paid tax on it, I was accepted based on an agreed criteria of skills/abilities that would benefit the country I now live in....where I earn money for myself and pay tax on it, I spend money and pay tax on it, and I work for a company that generates profit, where they pay tax on it... But moving back to the topic. There are lots of different ways to run a country. You've claimed this is a "...fascist playbook..." when in reality it's how most other developed countries are currently run....or am I missing something...? ...I forget where we get to fascism...?
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Oct 4, 2023 16:39:04 GMT
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Post by oldie on Oct 4, 2023 19:28:50 GMT
Do you support the blatant lying ? … meat taxes , 15 min cities , hurricane of migrants ( which you must find absolutely repellent being a migrant yourself) , 7 bins needed etc etc , the Brexit lies , 40 new hospitals ? They’re following a fascist playbook and if you can’t or won’t see it you’re part of the problem. Ooh and I forgot the partygate lies 🙄 ...you're not wrong in that I did emigrate for personal reasons and would actively encourage anyone thinking of doing the same to follow me. If they meet all the legal criteria and can afford the cost (for me it was around £3500 for the visa) plus the flights (£1250) and shipping furniture/possessions (1475) then it's a good choice.... ...all of that money went to the government(s) or companies involved in my decision. So people earned money and paid tax on it, companies made money and paid tax on it, I was accepted based on an agreed criteria of skills/abilities that would benefit the country I now live in....where I earn money for myself and pay tax on it, I spend money and pay tax on it, and I work for a company that generates profit, where they pay tax on it... But moving back to the topic. There are lots of different ways to run a country. You've claimed this is a "...fascist playbook..." when in reality it's how most other developed countries are currently run....or am I missing something...? ...I forget where we get to fascism...? So you left the UK?
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Oct 4, 2023 20:18:38 GMT
Are you going to stand up and fight ? 🤛
Penny Mordaunt, "Stand up and fight, because when you stand up and fight, the person beside you stands up and fights. And when our party stands up and fights, the nation stands up and fights. And when our nation stands up and fights, other nations stand up and fight. And they stand up and fight for the the things upon which the entire progress of humanity depends. Freedom."
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Post by aghast on Oct 4, 2023 22:04:01 GMT
Over the years I understood that politics is a sensible theme and better not talk about it if you want to prevent intense discussions You do realise that makes no sense whatsoever, don't you? I think an AI bot wrote it.
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Post by aghast on Oct 4, 2023 22:10:57 GMT
Victoria had her on toast. Donelan will be my MP after the next election 😵💫
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 5, 2023 7:34:14 GMT
"There are fresh calls to clean up politics with stronger rules around lying after senior Tories made false statements around meat taxes and 15-minute cities at their annual party conference. Green MP Caroline Lucas told Sky News a "dishonesty epidemic is infecting the Tory party" as she called on Prime Minister Rishi Sunak to acquaint himself with the Nolan Principles of public life - which include that holders of public office tell the truth. These are not legally binding, but some MPs and academics believe they should be amid a collapse in public trust in UK politicians. The debate has been reignited after a fractious Conservative Party Conference which, aside from the HS2 fiasco, has been dominated by accusations of MPs lying and peddling conspiracy theories. Critics point to Energy Secretary Claire Coutinho claiming in a speech that Labour is "relaxed about taxing meat" - something which is not Labour Party policy. Meanwhile Transport Secretary Mark Harper, in an attack on 15-minute cities, said we should not tolerate "the idea that local councils decide how often you go to the shops" - echoing a conspiracy theory about the planning concept that the government has previously debunked. The independent charity Full Fact also raised concern about Chancellor Jeremy Hunt describing inflation as a tax, saying that is "clearly not technically true". Science Secretary Michelle Donelan has also been accused of "making things up" after pledging to "kick woke ideology out of science" while Susan Hall, the Tory mayoral candidate for London, faced criticism for suggesting the Jewish community is scared of Sadiq Khan - a claim Jewish groups have strongly disputed." news.sky.com/story/dishonesty-epidemic-infecting-tories-conference-sparks-fresh-calls-for-rules-to-stop-mps-lying-12976524
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Post by trevorgas on Oct 5, 2023 7:53:24 GMT
"There are fresh calls to clean up politics with stronger rules around lying after senior Tories made false statements around meat taxes and 15-minute cities at their annual party conference. Green MP Caroline Lucas told Sky News a "dishonesty epidemic is infecting the Tory party" as she called on Prime Minister Rishi Sunak to acquaint himself with the Nolan Principles of public life - which include that holders of public office tell the truth. These are not legally binding, but some MPs and academics believe they should be amid a collapse in public trust in UK politicians. The debate has been reignited after a fractious Conservative Party Conference which, aside from the HS2 fiasco, has been dominated by accusations of MPs lying and peddling conspiracy theories. Critics point to Energy Secretary Claire Coutinho claiming in a speech that Labour is "relaxed about taxing meat" - something which is not Labour Party policy. Meanwhile Transport Secretary Mark Harper, in an attack on 15-minute cities, said we should not tolerate "the idea that local councils decide how often you go to the shops" - echoing a conspiracy theory about the planning concept that the government has previously debunked. The independent charity Full Fact also raised concern about Chancellor Jeremy Hunt describing inflation as a tax, saying that is "clearly not technically true". Science Secretary Michelle Donelan has also been accused of "making things up" after pledging to "kick woke ideology out of science" while Susan Hall, the Tory mayoral candidate for London, faced criticism for suggesting the Jewish community is scared of Sadiq Khan - a claim Jewish groups have strongly disputed." news.sky.com/story/dishonesty-epidemic-infecting-tories-conference-sparks-fresh-calls-for-rules-to-stop-mps-lying-12976524Bloody hell politicians lie, who'd have thought it!! Been going on for centuries,nothing worse than Blair/Campbell tissue of lies WMD document that took us into an illegal war.
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Post by supergas on Oct 5, 2023 9:38:19 GMT
...you're not wrong in that I did emigrate for personal reasons and would actively encourage anyone thinking of doing the same to follow me. If they meet all the legal criteria and can afford the cost (for me it was around £3500 for the visa) plus the flights (£1250) and shipping furniture/possessions (1475) then it's a good choice.... ...all of that money went to the government(s) or companies involved in my decision. So people earned money and paid tax on it, companies made money and paid tax on it, I was accepted based on an agreed criteria of skills/abilities that would benefit the country I now live in....where I earn money for myself and pay tax on it, I spend money and pay tax on it, and I work for a company that generates profit, where they pay tax on it... But moving back to the topic. There are lots of different ways to run a country. You've claimed this is a "...fascist playbook..." when in reality it's how most other developed countries are currently run....or am I missing something...? ...I forget where we get to fascism...? So you left the UK? Yes for a few years. My partner is Australian - we lived together in the UK for six years and we are now coming up on the sixth year in Australia together. Might move back to the UK for a few years, might stay here, who knows?
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 5, 2023 12:34:01 GMT
"There are fresh calls to clean up politics with stronger rules around lying after senior Tories made false statements around meat taxes and 15-minute cities at their annual party conference. Green MP Caroline Lucas told Sky News a "dishonesty epidemic is infecting the Tory party" as she called on Prime Minister Rishi Sunak to acquaint himself with the Nolan Principles of public life - which include that holders of public office tell the truth. These are not legally binding, but some MPs and academics believe they should be amid a collapse in public trust in UK politicians. The debate has been reignited after a fractious Conservative Party Conference which, aside from the HS2 fiasco, has been dominated by accusations of MPs lying and peddling conspiracy theories. Critics point to Energy Secretary Claire Coutinho claiming in a speech that Labour is "relaxed about taxing meat" - something which is not Labour Party policy. Meanwhile Transport Secretary Mark Harper, in an attack on 15-minute cities, said we should not tolerate "the idea that local councils decide how often you go to the shops" - echoing a conspiracy theory about the planning concept that the government has previously debunked. The independent charity Full Fact also raised concern about Chancellor Jeremy Hunt describing inflation as a tax, saying that is "clearly not technically true". Science Secretary Michelle Donelan has also been accused of "making things up" after pledging to "kick woke ideology out of science" while Susan Hall, the Tory mayoral candidate for London, faced criticism for suggesting the Jewish community is scared of Sadiq Khan - a claim Jewish groups have strongly disputed." news.sky.com/story/dishonesty-epidemic-infecting-tories-conference-sparks-fresh-calls-for-rules-to-stop-mps-lying-12976524Bloody hell politicians lie, who'd have thought it!! Been going on for centuries,nothing worse than Blair/Campbell tissue of lies WMD document that took us into an illegal war. Or indeed Eden over Suez. Politicians do lie, but in this mass/social media world, it's become endemic and largely unchecked, certainly 'in the moment.' A lie has got round the world before truth has got out of bed, and half truths even more so. It may be rose tinted spectacles, but there used to be proper journalism holding power to account and advertising rules when there were fewer, more regulated ways to get a point across. The likes of Laura K and Peston just want soundbites and even people such as Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg don't care. Just get the internet traffic volumes up. Watching the Scottish referendum, Brexit, Putin and Trump really highlights the casual nature it has become and it undermines faith in democracy. Just look at the stat I posted some time ago with so many under 30s being comfortable with a 'strong man' dictator. It's not just truth, half truth or lies, just look at the language used too. Braverman should really know better as a supposedly responsible Home Secretary.
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Oct 5, 2023 14:02:05 GMT
Bloody hell politicians lie, who'd have thought it!! Been going on for centuries,nothing worse than Blair/Campbell tissue of lies WMD document that took us into an illegal war. Or indeed Eden over Suez. Politicians do lie, but in this mass/social media world, it's become endemic and largely unchecked, certainly 'in the moment.' A lie has got round the world before truth has got out of bed, and half truths even more so. It may be rose tinted spectacles, but there used to be proper journalism holding power to account and advertising rules when there were fewer, more regulated ways to get a point across. The likes of Laura K and Peston just want soundbites and even people such as Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg don't care. Just get the internet traffic volumes up. Watching the Scottish referendum, Brexit, Putin and Trump really highlights the casual nature it has become and it undermines faith in democracy. Just look at the stat I posted some time ago with so many under 30s being comfortable with a 'strong man' dictator. It's not just truth, half truth or lies, just look at the language used too. Braverman should really know better as a supposedly responsible Home Secretary. Now they’ve got their own media to go on and spout any lies they like on GeeBeebies. Tories interviewing Tory MP’s . It’s now the right wing model , perfected by Trump and used by populists everywhere and sadly it’s here now. Then you get the lame response from some “they’re all the same” “all politicians lie” etc etc. No they’re not all the same , the lies being spouted now are beyond anything we’ve ever known .it works though doesn’t it ? Just look at Trump in America, the more he lies the better he seems to do in the polls. Up on multiple charges from sex offences to inciting a insurrection , frauds etc etc Youve got loons on the right in this country who’ll tell you Brexit is a success, climate crisis isn’t happening, covid was a hoax etc etc .
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Post by trevorgas on Oct 5, 2023 14:23:07 GMT
Bloody hell politicians lie, who'd have thought it!! Been going on for centuries,nothing worse than Blair/Campbell tissue of lies WMD document that took us into an illegal war. Or indeed Eden over Suez. Politicians do lie, but in this mass/social media world, it's become endemic and largely unchecked, certainly 'in the moment.' A lie has got round the world before truth has got out of bed, and half truths even more so. It may be rose tinted spectacles, but there used to be proper journalism holding power to account and advertising rules when there were fewer, more regulated ways to get a point across. The likes of Laura K and Peston just want soundbites and even people such as Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg don't care. Just get the internet traffic volumes up. Watching the Scottish referendum, Brexit, Putin and Trump really highlights the casual nature it has become and it undermines faith in democracy. Just look at the stat I posted some time ago with so many under 30s being comfortable with a 'strong man' dictator. It's not just truth, half truth or lies, just look at the language used too. Braverman should really know better as a supposedly responsible Home Secretary. I agree totally,one of the downsides of Social media as I see it is that no one and I include politicians have the time to prepare/research etc particularly subjects before they have a microphone shoved in their face or their bombarded on Social Media. Everyone wants answers etc instantaneously ergo the truth isn't even known by the those responsible for articulating it It's interesting that the Royal Family have very astutely set themselves apart from this and all statements are prepared and thought through beforehand. The exception being the two over the pond and how many times have they been caught out either not being honest or grossly exaggerating. We are I'm afraid no longer in the days of Robin Day when Journalist we're forensic their just all part of the same low circus,mores the pity .
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Oct 5, 2023 15:32:47 GMT
The Conservatives have embraced the spirit of opposition with the arrogance of a party that is used to being in government. Their conference in Manchester is a festival of complaint about the condition of Britain undisturbed by contrition for having presided over its decline.
Taxes are too high, they say, and borders are too porous. International human rights treaties are too binding; teachers are not doing enough teaching; police are not doing enough policing; there are too few doctors and too many civil servants. Children spend too long on their phones; benefit claimants are too lazy; speed limits are too low.
The Tories don’t like a country that is shaped by 13 years of their rule but prefer not to take responsibility. They have developed a keen reflex for diverting blame.
The habit was embedded in the years of strife between the referendum vote for Brexit and its enactment after Boris Johnson’s landslide election victory.
The cost of disentangling Britain from the EU was a monumental fact denied by advocates of the cause. The more it intruded on negotiations, the fiercer grew their attachment to denial.
Thus wedded to avoidance of reality and armed with a plebiscitary mandate, hardline Eurosceptics construed politics as a battle between the faithful and the unbelievers; between the will of the people and a wicked plot to subvert it.
That rhetoric cuts against the grain of representative democracy, which recognises the legitimacy of dissent and makes sincere efforts to negotiate between opposing interests.
Democrats navigate plural wills of a complex multitude. Refusal to engage with that challenge is a hallmark of populism and it locks any movement into a cycle of failure and blame.
An ill-conceived plan, having no foundation in reality, cannot satisfy grievances that populists mobilise to win elections. They dare not concede that critics of the plan were right, so instead they must vilify them as the obstruction to progress. Having defeated facts on the road to power, the revolution sustains itself on perpetual war against reality and its institutional redoubts in the pre-revolutionary establishment.
That impulse can propel populists even when they cease to be popular – or never were, as in the case of Liz Truss. The least successful prime minister of all time addressed a packed auditorium in Manchester. Her message was unrepentant evangelism for a policy programme that she maintains was traduced by servants of discredited orthodoxy before it could bear fruit.
This is the defence of all utopian zealots who keep their theories pure by rebranding failure as faulty implementation. So it is with Brexit, which swiftly transitioned from heroic adventure, brimming with opportunity, to elegised ambition, sabotaged by cowards and traitors. The intervening stage of blissful Brexit reality lasted only as long as it took for a cork to leave a champagne bottle at 11pm on 31 January 2020. Most people slept through it.
Appropriately, Nigel Farage was in the audience for Truss’s event. The former Ukip and Brexit party leader was admitted to the conference in his capacity as a presenter on GB News, but his presence underlined the complete capture of Britain’s ruling party by a movement that was once recognised as a hostile force by Tory leaders.
The home secretary, Suella Braverman, giving her keynote speech on the main stage at the Conservative party conference in Manchester. Suella Braverman claims ‘hurricane’ of mass migration coming to UK Read more Farage can now stroll around the secure zone of a Tory conference like a conqueror on occupied territory or, as many conference delegates would see it, a hero of the resistance post-liberation.
Rishi Sunak’s status as leader of this hybrid entity is increasingly ceremonial. Factional feuding and posturing for the succession make the Tories unruly, but those are conventional fissures in the edifice of a party that is languishing in opinion polls and exhausted by a long incumbency.
The merger with Faragism introduced a more profound faultline that the prime minister cannot straddle. It is the division between a concept of politics that aspires to deliver operable government and one that exists exclusively for protest. One addresses public anger, the other exploits it.
Angry opposition mode is incompatible with functional administration. It flees responsibility, despises compromise and licenses outlandish excursions into the political fringe in pursuit of new grievances to mine.
Mark Harper, the transport secretary, was once reputed to stand on the sensible wing of his party. On Monday he told Tory delegates he was “calling time on the misuse of so-called 15-minute cities”, which he characterised as a “sinister” plot by local authorities to ration road use and monitor shopping habits with CCTV. The 15-minute city is a harmless concept for pedestrian-friendly urban planning – except in the twisted imaginations of far-right conspiracy theorists and, it seems, Sunak’s cabinet.
Fringe meetings in Manchester seethe with dread of “the Blob” (a catch-all term covering civil servants, local councils that aren’t controlled by Tories, academia, the creative industries and non-governmental organisations). Speakers decry the suffocation of freedom by wokery (a super-villainous reincarnation of the enemy formerly known as “political correctness gone mad”).
Such targets are necessary surrogates for “Brussels”, which served for so long as the mythic origin of British decline. But the fanatical embrace of Euroscepticism was itself a coping strategy for Tories who had no ideological successor doctrine to Thatcherism after Thatcher, and still don’t.
No subsequent Conservative leader has articulated a purpose more inspiring than national renaissance by means of unleashed enterprising spirit. Adherents to the creed have stuck doggedly to that mission, like marauding knights after a crusade, unable to adjust to civilian life, re-enacting old battles against new infidels.
Depressed and branded ‘zealots’: Tory conference attacks on net zero alarm green-leaning MPs Read more The spectacle that has unfolded in Manchester this week is not just the endgame of a tired government. It is the late stages of moral and intellectual putrefaction. It is a once great party, hollowed out by a parasitical protest movement, collapsing into a parody of itself.
Except nothing about it is funny for as long as the Conservatives are still in office and able to dictate the terms of national debate. There is something corrosive of democracy in the obligation to take seriously a party that has given up on serious government. And there is something disturbing about a regime that is too ridiculous to trust with power yet is too powerful to be written off with ridicule.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 6, 2023 6:20:54 GMT
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Oct 6, 2023 6:55:50 GMT
Big swing to labour but a poor turnout. Terrible night for the Tory party as well as their vote share plummets by 11% ( losing their deposit 😂) Another poll this morning shows the Tory vote share hasn’t moved at all since the Tory conference.
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Post by Gassy on Oct 6, 2023 8:02:28 GMT
Big swing to labour but a poor turnout. Terrible night for the Tory party as well as their vote share plummets by 11% ( losing their deposit 😂) Another poll this morning shows the Tory vote share hasn’t moved at all since the Tory conference. That’s a good result for them, I expected it to drop even further! So Rishi at his absolute swinging and fighting saying he’s going to drive change in the country, couldn’t even increase the public opinion at all? I’ll be interested to see the reaction next week after Labours
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