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Post by oldie on Nov 23, 2023 9:11:36 GMT
So energy bills will go up again in Jan by £100 a month. Strange, I thought the economy had taken a turn, we were in complete control, and the government is the sole reason for inflation down to 4.7%? On a serious note, this is terrible timing for all and the timing on this is real eggs on faces of the Tories if inflation goes up again in the new year because of this I think it's more like £100 a year for a typical house. Yes, 5% so that is roughly £100 a year.
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Post by oldie on Nov 23, 2023 9:14:58 GMT
I see Hunt was full on "Supply Side" argument this morning. Admitted under questioning that as a result of cutting taxes public services funding will decline in real terms next year.
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 23, 2023 9:41:14 GMT
I see Hunt was full on "Supply Side" argument this morning. Admitted under questioning that as a result of cutting taxes public services funding will decline in real terms next year. There is a more fundamental problem with our Public Services and I include the NHS,they are structurally dysfunctional,ridden with inefficiency, have poor management and are undertaking tasks they weren't designed for. Without root and branch reform there will never be improvement.
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Post by oldie on Nov 23, 2023 10:34:35 GMT
I see Hunt was full on "Supply Side" argument this morning. Admitted under questioning that as a result of cutting taxes public services funding will decline in real terms next year. There is a more fundamental problem with our Public Services and I include the NHS,they are structurally dysfunctional,ridden with inefficiency, have poor management and are undertaking tasks they weren't designed for. Without root and branch reform there will never be improvement. That may well be the case, I cannot argue the opposite because I don't know, but conversely I have not seen empirical evidence that those accusations are true. But I do believe that they are a key plank of the anti tax funded public service argument. I would have no doubt that with an eye on defined outputs and properly thought through operational methods greater efficiency could be achieved. Look what happened between 2000-07. But what are the alternatives (other than a competent government)?
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 23, 2023 10:46:54 GMT
There is a more fundamental problem with our Public Services and I include the NHS,they are structurally dysfunctional,ridden with inefficiency, have poor management and are undertaking tasks they weren't designed for. Without root and branch reform there will never be improvement. That may well be the case, I cannot argue the opposite because I don't know, but conversely I have not seen empirical evidence that those accusations are true. But I do believe that they are a key plank of the anti tax funded public service argument. I would have no doubt that with an eye on defined outputs and properly thought through operational methods greater efficiency could be achieved. Look what happened between 2000-07. But what are the alternatives (other than a competent government)? I have no problem with the right level of tax payer funding,I do have a problem with throwing money at it which we did in 2000-2007 that just masked all the issues There needs to be a comprehensive review,based on what would you design for the 21st century and what's the route map to get there.
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Post by oldie on Nov 23, 2023 10:53:00 GMT
That may well be the case, I cannot argue the opposite because I don't know, but conversely I have not seen empirical evidence that those accusations are true. But I do believe that they are a key plank of the anti tax funded public service argument. I would have no doubt that with an eye on defined outputs and properly thought through operational methods greater efficiency could be achieved. Look what happened between 2000-07. But what are the alternatives (other than a competent government)? I have no problem with the right level of tax payer funding,I do have a problem with throwing money at it which we did in 2000-2007 that just masked all the issues There needs to be a comprehensive review,based on what would you design for the 21st century and what's the route map to get there. Are you saying that service level improvements were not achieved during that period?
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Nov 23, 2023 10:56:58 GMT
...easy! When was the last time the OBR made an economic prediction that was even vaguely accurate and not massively pessimistic? Whilst you check I will point out that unless they have suddenly found the correct set of tarrot cards to make their prediction with, this is 100% guaranteed not to happen [edit] No need, it'll be dismissed as just an OBR forecast. ...fair play, I should have read further down the thread The OBR’s forecast performance Graham Atkins & Luke Lanskey Office for Budget Responsibility Abstract This working paper takes a comprehensive look at the OBR’s overall forecasting record since we were established in 2010, comparing our economic and fiscal forecasts against those of external UK forecasters, the Bank of England, other official forecasters in Europe, and the official UK forecasts produced by the Treasury during the 20 years before the OBR was established. We find that the OBR has tended to overestimate real GDP growth and underestimate government borrowing over the medium term, with the latter due mainly to a tendency to underestimate the medium-term level of government spending. Our real GDP growth forecast differences are similar to those of external forecasters, but our borrowing forecasts tend to be less accurate beyond the first year of the forecast. Similarly, the OBR’s forecasts for real GDP growth in the UK are more accurate than the average of other official forecasters in Europe, but the UK’s borrowing forecasts are less accurate than the average beyond the first year. However, both our real GDP growth and borrowing forecasts are more accurate and less biased than the previous UK official forecasts produced by the Treasury.
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Nov 23, 2023 10:57:11 GMT
...easy! When was the last time the OBR made an economic prediction that was even vaguely accurate and not massively pessimistic? Whilst you check I will point out that unless they have suddenly found the correct set of tarrot cards to make their prediction with, this is 100% guaranteed not to happen [edit] No need, it'll be dismissed as just an OBR forecast. ...fair play, I should have read further down the thread
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 23, 2023 11:29:49 GMT
I have no problem with the right level of tax payer funding,I do have a problem with throwing money at it which we did in 2000-2007 that just masked all the issues There needs to be a comprehensive review,based on what would you design for the 21st century and what's the route map to get there. Are you saying that service level improvements were not achieved during that period? No I'm not what I am saying is the amount of resources thrown at it was disproportionate to the level of improvement. The design structure of Trusts is fundamentally flawed,all doing different things,different ways,top heavy in management,little accountability etc. The NHS as launched in 1947 as just had multiple processes, procedures and additional functionality bolted on,no real thought as to the overall impact or how changes can be managed effectively and with consistency,the outcome with that approach was always going to be problematic, exacerbated by real cuts in funding.
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Post by oldie on Nov 23, 2023 11:57:40 GMT
Are you saying that service level improvements were not achieved during that period? No I'm not what I am saying is the amount of resources thrown at it was disproportionate to the level of improvement. The design structure of Trusts is fundamentally flawed,all doing different things,different ways,top heavy in management,little accountability etc. The NHS as launched in 1947 as just had multiple processes, procedures and additional functionality bolted on,no real thought as to the overall impact or how changes can be managed effectively and with consistency,the outcome with that approach was always going to be problematic, exacerbated by real cuts in funding. Yep And guess who did that (Trusts)? You got it, the Tories, April 1st 1991. By the time 1997 rolled around the NHS was shambolic. The trouble is Clive that to unravel all the Tory years of incompetent (and ideological) mismanagement cannot be done cheaply and quickly. Plus politically Blair/Brown were determined to control debt (they ran a surplus in 2000). So they went after outcomes, waiting times etc, which they achieved.
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 23, 2023 14:14:25 GMT
No I'm not what I am saying is the amount of resources thrown at it was disproportionate to the level of improvement. The design structure of Trusts is fundamentally flawed,all doing different things,different ways,top heavy in management,little accountability etc. The NHS as launched in 1947 as just had multiple processes, procedures and additional functionality bolted on,no real thought as to the overall impact or how changes can be managed effectively and with consistency,the outcome with that approach was always going to be problematic, exacerbated by real cuts in funding. Yep And guess who did that (Trusts)? You got it, the Tories, April 1st 1991. By the time 1997 rolled around the NHS was shambolic. The trouble is Clive that to unravel all the Tory years of incompetent (and ideological) mismanagement cannot be done cheaply and quickly. Plus politically Blair/Brown were determined to control debt (they ran a surplus in 2000). So they went after outcomes, waiting times etc, which they achieved. I agree totally Les,however I don't believe " do nothing" is an option only ameliorated by chucking more resources at it,no good for staff or patients. It's time we started to ask us the Customer some serious questions: What do we want the NHS to do What do we not want it to do How should it be funded What should excellence look like. Etc It cannot be turned around quickly however like all dysfunctional organisations,having a clear destination,a plan of how to get there and a robust communication process will enable a start. Other than how to fund I would take politicians out of the process,they lurch from one priority to another,totally undermining staff morale and creating further waste To be clear this is not a one party ,one parliament issue ,it will take a decade ,I would like to see all party's come together on this problem ,not play politics after all we all have a vested interest in it being right and it's far to precious to be kicked around like it has been in the last 30years.
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Post by oldie on Nov 23, 2023 14:30:22 GMT
Yep And guess who did that (Trusts)? You got it, the Tories, April 1st 1991. By the time 1997 rolled around the NHS was shambolic. The trouble is Clive that to unravel all the Tory years of incompetent (and ideological) mismanagement cannot be done cheaply and quickly. Plus politically Blair/Brown were determined to control debt (they ran a surplus in 2000). So they went after outcomes, waiting times etc, which they achieved. I agree totally Les,however I don't believe " do nothing" is an option only ameliorated by chucking more resources at it,no good for staff or patients. It's time we started to ask us the Customer some serious questions: What do we want the NHS to do What do we not want it to do How should it be funded What should excellence look like. Etc It cannot be turned around quickly however like all dysfunctional organisations,having a clear destination,a plan of how to get there and a robust communication process will enable a start. Other than how to fund I would take politicians out of the process,they lurch from one priority to another,totally undermining staff morale and creating further waste To be clear this is not a one party ,one parliament issue ,it will take a decade ,I would like to see all party's come together on this problem ,not play politics after all we all have a vested interest in it being right and it's far to precious to be kicked around like it has been in the last 30years. I agree with this
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Post by joefrankie on Nov 23, 2023 17:22:49 GMT
I agree totally Les,however I don't believe " do nothing" is an option only ameliorated by chucking more resources at it,no good for staff or patients. It's time we started to ask us the Customer some serious questions: What do we want the NHS to do What do we not want it to do How should it be funded What should excellence look like. Etc It cannot be turned around quickly however like all dysfunctional organisations,having a clear destination,a plan of how to get there and a robust communication process will enable a start. Other than how to fund I would take politicians out of the process,they lurch from one priority to another,totally undermining staff morale and creating further waste To be clear this is not a one party ,one parliament issue ,it will take a decade ,I would like to see all party's come together on this problem ,not play politics after all we all have a vested interest in it being right and it's far to precious to be kicked around like it has been in the last 30years. I agree with this If Starmer follows his Party’s policy and changes the electoral system to proportional representation, the Tories will never govern on their own ever again, and the left of centre parties can get on with creating a decent country without having to worry about the next election and appeasing the right wing press and selfish/racist voters. Problem is, I’m not sure he will. So although I’m a lifelong Labour supporter, I don’t want Labour to win big, although I do want the win, obviously.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 23, 2023 17:43:32 GMT
Did anyone hear JRM on Radio 4? No need to import migrants for fruit picking, just import the fruit. 🙄
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Post by francegas on Nov 23, 2023 17:58:48 GMT
If Starmer follows his Party’s policy and changes the electoral system to proportional representation, the Tories will never govern on their own ever again, and the left of centre parties can get on with creating a decent country without having to worry about the next election and appeasing the right wing press and selfish/racist voters. Problem is, I’m not sure he will. So although I’m a lifelong Labour supporter, I don’t want Labour to win big, although I do want the win, obviously. And thankfully nor would labour govern on their own.
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Post by francegas on Nov 23, 2023 18:14:36 GMT
Did anyone hear JRM on Radio 4? No need to import migrants for fruit picking, just import the fruit. 🙄 Or alternatively use our own unemployed, there's plenty of them!
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Post by joefrankie on Nov 23, 2023 18:49:41 GMT
If Starmer follows his Party’s policy and changes the electoral system to proportional representation, the Tories will never govern on their own ever again, and the left of centre parties can get on with creating a decent country without having to worry about the next election and appeasing the right wing press and selfish/racist voters. Problem is, I’m not sure he will. So although I’m a lifelong Labour supporter, I don’t want Labour to win big, although I do want the win, obviously. And thankfully nor would labour govern on their own. You’re correct. The Lib Dems and Greens would have to help form coalitions, but at least they’re both left of Centre, so if Labour is the largest party we’ll have a proper left wing government, and if the Tories are the largest party they will have the Lib Dems and/or the Greens as their conscience. The Lib Dems and Greens will both have learned from the Lib Dems mistakes of the previous coalition government.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 23, 2023 19:47:25 GMT
Did anyone hear JRM on Radio 4? No need to import migrants for fruit picking, just import the fruit. 🙄 Or alternatively use our own unemployed, there's plenty of them! That isn't what he said though.
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 23, 2023 19:56:59 GMT
Or alternatively use our own unemployed, there's plenty of them! That isn't what he said though. Jesus why would we import fruit when ours is better,this year we have lost a significant acreage of heritage apples due to cheap imports of inferior products,what is wrong with this country? In 5 years time we will no longer produce our own apples ,JRM is a cock.
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Nov 23, 2023 20:02:26 GMT
Did anyone hear JRM on Radio 4? No need to import migrants for fruit picking, just import the fruit. 🙄 Or alternatively use our own unemployed, there's plenty of them! Thought your mob were crowing about how low the unemployment rates were ? Make your minds up 🙄
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