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Post by bluestickgas1 on Feb 2, 2023 21:43:09 GMT
But it’s not as black and white as you’re making out Oldie is it? Yes Barton was Manager but he inherited a squad that were on terms negotiated by Garner, Starnes etc and a playing budget that we know was excessive for the quality… those contracts did not have relegation clauses in them so Barton was faced with a reduced income driven by relegation and a significant proportion of the playing squad on top end League 1 salaries…. We had to cut our cloth accordingly and unfortunately the 1st team takes priority so to ensure we could still recruit etc the U23’s went… it was a decision made by the club as a whole, not just Barton but that doesn’t fit your narrative… we are now back in league 1 with better income, a better structured playing budget and it makes sense to try and reintroduce the U23s if we can for all the benefits we know it brings… The back of my mind there were players that had reduced wages because of relegation. Is it a fact that there was no relegation clause? Reality is, no one actually knows for certain but if they did why would players like Westbrooke stay for so long, not play and in some ways hinder his career and on significantly less money if he could have negotiated a move to a new club at the same level on better terms (I know it isn’t as black and white as that but you get my point) - also a few times there have been mentions re high earners moving on freeing up much needed salary bandwidth and that tends to be around players from that squad….
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Post by js67 on Feb 2, 2023 21:51:23 GMT
Whether it was Barton or Coughlan (think it was Barton) that scrapped the U23s, it was the wrong decision IMHO, although the manager will obviously point to promotion. Longer term I don't think it was a wise decision for the football club, because I think you need a pathway for the u18s and somewhere to help develop unpolished gems that we could scout and turn into sellable assets, like Anis Mehmeti at Wycombe for example, or someone of that ilk recruited into an u23s setup. It was the correct decision to disband if you actually knew the ridiculously minimum hour wages that were being paid, you couldn't possibly recruit development players of any type of calibre required to develop, you need to properly invest good sums of money to make the development model work !
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Post by bluestickgas1 on Feb 2, 2023 21:54:16 GMT
But it’s not as black and white as you’re making out Oldie is it? Yes Barton was Manager but he inherited a squad that were on terms negotiated by Garner, Starnes etc and a playing budget that we know was excessive for the quality… those contracts did not have relegation clauses in them so Barton was faced with a reduced income driven by relegation and a significant proportion of the playing squad on top end League 1 salaries…. We had to cut our cloth accordingly and unfortunately the 1st team takes priority so to ensure we could still recruit etc the U23’s went… it was a decision made by the club as a whole, not just Barton but that doesn’t fit your narrative… we are now back in league 1 with better income, a better structured playing budget and it makes sense to try and reintroduce the U23s if we can for all the benefits we know it brings… Ok,so what was the operating loss in 2021 and what was it in 2022? If that differential does not indicate a significant improvement (excluding exceptional gains/losses) then Barton is now advocating loading costs on top of £2m annual loss? Does that not then take us back to where we were financially? Is that logical? But at the time we were weren’t sure on what the impact of relegation would be totally because 2021 had COVID impacts but also reduced cost exposures (I.e. no policing costs, no security, reduced produce due to no fans attending games, no staff (bar, hospitality etc) and we weren’t entirely sure what 2022 would bring in terms of fans returning and costs etc so they had to make best informed assumptions)… you can’t compare the running costs as they are not like for like… the future was still so unsure and unstable… What has been shown is that our operating losses are reduced (although still a loss) our revenue and turnover is significant higher now and perhaps Wael has decided that he is now willing to underwrite a return of U23s as a long term strategy as the future is more stable and the timing is right to return to a blend of more home grown players that we can develop and sell on at a profit or reduce reliance’s on loans … Final point is that it wasn’t Barton in isolation - it was a club decision that he advocated/supported at that time because his priority was to maximise the opportunity for immediate promotion back to League 1 that was achieved…
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Post by gasaholic on Feb 2, 2023 21:56:59 GMT
Revealing Unless new loan goalkeeper Balcombe does not play in the first three matches after signing. Rovers will have to play Brentford a substantial loan fee. So Morecambe. MK Dons and Lincoln he will be starting. He also revealed he does not get paid enough and he finances some of the backroom staff from his own pocket. Also said players agreed won't pay gasheads travelling expenses for the ill fated trip to Morecambe. He was glad January window is over and keeping Collins & Coburn was pleasing (No firm bids for Collins) but hinted this Summer Collins will probably consider enhancing his career elsewhere. Find that hard to believe, why would he agree to that condition when we are not exactly short of keepers, am skeptic about the whole thing. 2 more matches like his first and we will be looking over our shoulders at relegation.
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Post by pirate on Feb 2, 2023 22:03:48 GMT
Whether it was Barton or Coughlan (think it was Barton) that scrapped the U23s, it was the wrong decision IMHO, although the manager will obviously point to promotion. Longer term I don't think it was a wise decision for the football club, because I think you need a pathway for the u18s and somewhere to help develop unpolished gems that we could scout and turn into sellable assets, like Anis Mehmeti at Wycombe for example, or someone of that ilk recruited into an u23s setup. It was the correct decision to disband if you actually knew the ridiculously minimum hour wages that were being paid, you couldn't possibly recruit development players of any type of calibre required to develop, you need to properly invest good sums of money to make the development model work ! If you read through the thread you will see I've mentioned how the players were initially "earning peanuts", how I don't believe the recruitment was good enough and how if the will was there you can make it work, but that with our setup I'm not sure the will was really there and only a token gesture.
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Post by daniel300380 on Feb 2, 2023 22:04:49 GMT
Wael said it was the managers choice to get rid of the under 23s, as he wanted to put all of the money into the first team. I think it was coughlan that decided to get rid of it. It happened in 2021. Barton It was cut back long before that. We were only playing a few friendlies. There was an while thread on it on here a few years ago. N
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Post by CrispPusher on Feb 2, 2023 22:07:25 GMT
Makes the decision to sign Balcombe even more bizarre.
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Post by warehamgas on Feb 2, 2023 22:14:22 GMT
Not sure who the manager was when we scrapped the u23s. It was dwindling along for a while and a token gesture for ages, especially in the latter days. Even when we started it DC said the lads in u23s were earning peanuts anyway. Wael said it was the managers choice to get rid of the under 23s, as he wanted to put all of the money into the first team. I think it was coughlan that decided to get rid of it. I’m sure you’re correct about this but…. When taking over 7 years ago Wael in his “evolution not revolution” speech outlining what we would see Wael said that development of our own youngsters would be important. Yet he let a manager decide upon the direction of the club when it was disbanded. I like what Wael has done but sometimes it comes over as a scattergun approach to future development. And it comes over that whilst he had great enthusiasm and gave us a list of things that would happen I fear that the realities both financial and other areas are proving far more problematic than he anticipated. And of course the same problem regarding the formation of any development squad will continue to face the same old difficulties, the players we get will usually be those which other clubs have decided aren’t good enough. Now we may turn 1 or 2 into the first team squad but most will be seen not to be good enough to be in a team that is challenging for the Championship. I hope I’m wrong. UTG!
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Post by Topper Gas on Feb 2, 2023 22:29:31 GMT
Wael said it was the managers choice to get rid of the under 23s, as he wanted to put all of the money into the first team. I think it was coughlan that decided to get rid of it. I’m sure you’re correct about this but…. When taking over 7 years ago Wael in his “evolution not revolution” speech outlining what we would see Wael said that development of our own youngsters would be important. Yet he let a manager decide upon the direction of the club when it was disbanded. I like what Wael has done but sometimes it comes over as a scattergun approach to future development. And it comes over that whilst he had great enthusiasm and gave us a list of things that would happen I fear that the realities both financial and other areas are proving far more problematic than he anticipated. And of course the same problem regarding the formation of any development squad will continue to face the same old difficulties, the players we get will usually be those which other clubs have decided aren’t good enough. Now we may turn 1 or 2 into the first team squad but most will be seen not to be good enough to be in a team that is challenging for the Championship. I hope I’m wrong. UTG! Surely the theory is that we pick up ex Premiership/Championship players and then try and turn them into decent L1 players? As things stand there's no pathway whatsoever from the Academy to the 1st team nor for any young players we could potentially sign. i assume the issue is that 20(?) extra players plus a manager & coaches is the best part of £0.5m extra to spend when we're already losing £3m+ each season?
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Post by pirate on Feb 2, 2023 23:04:18 GMT
I’m sure you’re correct about this but…. When taking over 7 years ago Wael in his “evolution not revolution” speech outlining what we would see Wael said that development of our own youngsters would be important. Yet he let a manager decide upon the direction of the club when it was disbanded. I like what Wael has done but sometimes it comes over as a scattergun approach to future development. And it comes over that whilst he had great enthusiasm and gave us a list of things that would happen I fear that the realities both financial and other areas are proving far more problematic than he anticipated. And of course the same problem regarding the formation of any development squad will continue to face the same old difficulties, the players we get will usually be those which other clubs have decided aren’t good enough. Now we may turn 1 or 2 into the first team squad but most will be seen not to be good enough to be in a team that is challenging for the Championship. I hope I’m wrong. UTG! Surely the theory is that we pick up ex Premiership/Championship players and then try and turn them into decent L1 players? As things stand there's no pathway whatsoever from the Academy to the 1st team nor for any young players we could potentially sign. i assume the issue is that 20(?) extra players plus a manager & coaches is the best part of £0.5m extra to spend when we're already losing £3m+ each season? If you look at some of the more successful players that have been recruited by league clubs from non-league, they have been released by Prem or Championship clubs and had that initial professional grounding, but have the added benefit of then toughening up and proving their worth against men in a tough non-league environment. A few examples off the top of my head are Jamie Vardy (released by Sheffield Wednesday), Charlie Austin (released by Reading), Chris Smalling (releaed by Millwall), Craig Dawson (released by Man City), Joe Lolley (released by Birmingham City), Che Adams (released by Coventry City) and Anis Mehmeti (released by Norwich City). Just recently Watford signed 5 or 6 gems from non-league for their development setup and in the past few days Brentford again signed another promising prospect from the non-league ranks, a GK from Sevenoaks Town. Those gems are always out there that have fallen through the net so to speak. Rovers of all clubs should know this considering the majority of our better players throughout our history have some sort of non-league background. In the last 10 seasons: 👉🏻Over 150 transfers direct to the Prem & Champ from non-league 👉🏻Over a million minutes have been played in the Prem & Champ by former Non-league players 👉🏻Over 1700 Prem & Champ goals by former Non-league players
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Post by gashead1981 on Feb 2, 2023 23:20:02 GMT
Wael said it was the managers choice to get rid of the under 23s, as he wanted to put all of the money into the first team. I think it was coughlan that decided to get rid of it. It happened in 2021. Barton What’s your point?
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Post by eastgas on Feb 2, 2023 23:33:33 GMT
Really enjoyed that, good listen. The thing I find with JB is he can draw you in, his passion for the game is evident. I believe if we are to get to the championship he will be the man to get us there. Also nice to hear that it is wael that needs to be reigned in regarding transfers. Shows wael is still passionate and in it for the long haul, just needs to deliver that stadium to take us to the next step.
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Post by Windmill Hill Gas on Feb 3, 2023 6:43:23 GMT
I always think under 23 is a bit of a high threshold for a development squad. Most of our first team defenders are younger than 23 (which may be partly why we're conceding too many goals!) If your nearly 23 and your not good enough for a League 1 squad, your probably not going to make it at that level?
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Post by nickchippenhamgas on Feb 3, 2023 6:52:50 GMT
I believe we are at our glass ceiling because of the ground, nothing more we can do but be competitive in league one until that day, one day, we can have a stadium worthy of the fan base. That’s why I said on another thread does it really matter in the scheme of things if Collins is sold or not, we are 10-15 years behind City now, maybe more, it would be a disaster to get promoted now with our defence let’s be honest with ourselves. I’m not being pessimistic just realistic, in my 53 years of supporting the gas we’ve never had such a gap in real terms between us and City in my opinion, even though we’re only in the next division down.
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Post by pirate on Feb 3, 2023 7:54:46 GMT
I always think under 23 is a bit of a high threshold for a development squad. Most of our first team defenders are younger than 23 (which may be partly why we're conceding too many goals!) If your nearly 23 and your not good enough for a League 1 squad, your probably not going to make it at that level? The age parameters were recently changed with Premier League announcing that the Professional Development League would become an U21 competition from the start of the 2022/23 season. I think all the development leagues followed suit and most other development and B team squads are usually aged from u16-u20 on average.
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Post by gasandelectricity on Feb 3, 2023 8:04:19 GMT
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Post by playtowin on Feb 3, 2023 8:22:34 GMT
What players actually came up from that U23 squad? I'm not saying it can't be successful but it wasn't. Rollin M.Hoole Kilgour Ward Hargreaves Santos Phillips to name just a few. So you could argue as a club it wasnt worth the expense. None of those players have brought in an income that would have covered the costs im guessing.
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Post by pirate on Feb 3, 2023 8:25:46 GMT
Rollin M.Hoole Kilgour Ward Hargreaves Santos Phillips to name just a few. So you could argue as a club it wasnt worth the expense. None of those players have brought in an income that would have covered the costs im guessing. We didn't fund it adequately or get the recruitment right, but that doesn't mean having a B team or development side isn't worth having. It is worth it if you do it properly.
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Post by playtowin on Feb 3, 2023 8:40:12 GMT
So you could argue as a club it wasnt worth the expense. None of those players have brought in an income that would have covered the costs im guessing. We didn't fund it adequately or get the recruitment right, but that doesn't mean having a B team or development side isn't worth having, it is if you do it properly. That has to come from the club rather than the manager though. Any manager knows a job is usually only a few years long. So the choice of an extra half million on the first team or finance young players for another managers benefit is only going one way.
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Post by pirate on Feb 3, 2023 9:48:09 GMT
We didn't fund it adequately or get the recruitment right, but that doesn't mean having a B team or development side isn't worth having, it is if you do it properly. That has to come from the club rather than the manager though. Any manager knows a job is usually only a few years long. So the choice of an extra half million on the first team or finance young players for another managers benefit is only going one way. I agree, which is why I think it's always a good idea having a director of football type of figure at a club with experience and knowledge of the game, who is independent from the manager, looking out for the best interests of the club as a whole.
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