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Post by gasheadbatesy on Mar 12, 2023 10:46:28 GMT
im not talking about Jews, I’m talking about the illegal immigrants, that have no right to be here. Ffs That's exactly what the National Socialists said about Jews in Germany in the 1920s/30s. Look it up what have Jews got to do with todays boat crossings? Jews keep getting mentioned to me, yet I never mentioned them, as others have said, there’s no comparison. |
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Post by yattongas on Mar 12, 2023 10:48:56 GMT
No no Wareham. It's linking the tactics of propaganda and divide & rule. That is exactly what the National Socialists did in the 20s&30s, paving the way for mass murder. Braverman's language in depicting immigrants has horrifying echoes of that time Oldie, I know you can see that the total failure of this government to deal with the issue is at the heart of the problem and the Home Secretary is beyond hope. But the problem has arisen that people feel a genuine concern at some of these economic migrants from all over coming here. They arrive in safe countries but want to come here. The government find a sympathetic press echoing their thoughts and of course this government now is clutching at any straw. But, and you’re right about what the Nazis did I think that was a lifetime away from what’s happening here. This country needs a grown up party that can recognise the problem and deal with it in a competent way so that those in genuine need can come here easily and quickly and those that don’t warrant it can’t. Until that happens the press and others will continue to fight amongst themselves. UTG! ps. We’re straying outside the realms of MOTD!! Agreed in part but this gov has manufactured this situation by not dealing with asylum claims ( look into the processing of applications and how they have nosedived in recent yrs) . There are NO legal ;routes for these people and comparatively we don’t take our fair share . It’s almost as if this current government wants this ‘crisis’ to stoke up cultural wars and wedge issues to deflect from all its multiple failings 🙄 |
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Post by miltongas on Mar 12, 2023 10:51:59 GMT
Ffs That's exactly what the National Socialists said about Jews in Germany in the 1920s/30s. Look it up what have Jews got to do with todays boat crossings? Jews keep getting mentioned to me, yet I never mentioned them, as others have said, there’s no comparison. [br The debate is about the parallels of language between Germany in 1930s and the current tory government. The Germans used divisive language that alienated the Jews as a threat to ordinary Germans. The current government uses language that alienates the refugees (not illegal because you cannot be an illegal asylum seeker) as a threat to ‘our’ ordinary people. The targets may have changed but the actions and language remain the same. And many of the ‘anti-illegals’ group would definitely have been anti-Jewish refugees in the 1930s. As many (including the Daily Mail and it’s family owners) were. |
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Post by francegas on Mar 12, 2023 10:54:55 GMT
If Gary Lineker had tweeted “ I fully agree with Braverman and we must stop the boats” ….. would he have been taken off air and would Tory MP’s have been up in arms ? Nope . Who knows. I would expect the left wing press would be all over it like a rash and Labour MPs would be up in arms branding him a racist demanding the BBC take action. |
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Post by gasheadbatesy on Mar 12, 2023 11:00:33 GMT
what have Jews got to do with todays boat crossings? Jews keep getting mentioned to me, yet I never mentioned them, as others have said, there’s no comparison. [br The debate is about the parallels of language between Germany in 1930s and the current tory government. The Germans used divisive language that alienated the Jews as a threat to ordinary Germans. The current government uses language that alienates the refugees (not illegal because you cannot be an illegal asylum seeker) as a threat to ‘our’ ordinary people. The targets may have changed but the actions and language remain the same. And many of the ‘anti-illegals’ group would definitely have been anti-Jewish refugees in the 1930s. As many (including the Daily Mail and it’s family owners) were. Language and actions are completely different things. You could compare the 2 if we were out there with a pin popping there dinghies in the middle of the channel, but we don’t. That would be a comparison. Talk is cheap, and something needs to be done about it. Can’t just let in everyone, terrorists, sex traffickers, drug traffickers, sex offenders, these people need to be checked, and tracked at our own expense. |
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Post by yattongas on Mar 12, 2023 11:11:11 GMT
If Gary Lineker had tweeted “ I fully agree with Braverman and we must stop the boats” ….. would he have been taken off air and would Tory MP’s have been up in arms ? Nope . Who knows. I would expect the left wing press would be all over it like a rash and Labour MPs would be up in arms branding him a racist demanding the BBC take action. Who are this left wing press you speak of … Sun , Torygraph , Mail , Daily Express , Mail , The Times ? |
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Post by Topper Gas on Mar 12, 2023 11:14:17 GMT
So what's the alternative to the present proposed Government policy, just open up our borders to anybody who wants to move to the UK and then let the whole population of Albania take over the country?
I see there are suggestions in the press that Germany are going to follow the proposed Rwanda route, so they are clearly having similar issues.
It's easy to criticise the Government, not so easy to come up with an alternative plan, Labour don't seem to many any at present.
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Post by miltongas on Mar 12, 2023 11:16:46 GMT
[br The debate is about the parallels of language between Germany in 1930s and the current tory government. The Germans used divisive language that alienated the Jews as a threat to ordinary Germans. The current government uses language that alienates the refugees (not illegal because you cannot be an illegal asylum seeker) as a threat to ‘our’ ordinary people. The targets may have changed but the actions and language remain the same. And many of the ‘anti-illegals’ group would definitely have been anti-Jewish refugees in the 1930s. As many (including the Daily Mail and it’s family owners) were. Language and actions are completely different things. You could compare the 2 if we were out there with a pin popping there dinghies in the middle of the channel, but we don’t. That would be a comparison. Talk is cheap, and something needs to be done about it. Can’t just let in everyone, terrorists, sex traffickers, drug traffickers, sex offenders, these people need to be checked, and tracked at our own expense. Sorry Batesy but you are wrong. Language matters. Th e dehumanisation of refugees and the language that links ALL of them to criminals is appalling. It leads directly to the actions you clearly support such as killing them in the sea. For parallels see any genocide in history that starts with the language of hate before it becomes physical action |
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Post by oldie on Mar 12, 2023 11:23:06 GMT
No no Wareham. It's linking the tactics of propaganda and divide & rule. That is exactly what the National Socialists did in the 20s&30s, paving the way for mass murder. Braverman's language in depicting immigrants has horrifying echoes of that time Oldie, I know you can see that the total failure of this government to deal with the issue is at the heart of the problem and the Home Secretary is beyond hope. But the problem has arisen that people feel a genuine concern at some of these economic migrants from all over coming here. They arrive in safe countries but want to come here. The government find a sympathetic press echoing their thoughts and of course this government now is clutching at any straw. But, and you’re right about what the Nazis did I think that was a lifetime away from what’s happening here. This country needs a grown up party that can recognise the problem and deal with it in a competent way so that those in genuine need can come here easily and quickly and those that don’t warrant it can’t. Until that happens the press and others will continue to fight amongst themselves. UTG! ps. We’re straying outside the realms of MOTD!! Agree mostly But let's keep it to what Lineker said, this "This is just an immeasurably cruel policy directed at the most vulnerable people in language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the '30s, and I'm out of order?" Language. Braverman's language "Writing in the Daily Mail, Ms Braverman said: "In the face of today's global migration crisis, yesterday's laws are simply not fit for purpose. "There are 100 million people displaced around the world, and likely billions more eager to come here if possible." "Ms Braverman, who was previously in hot water for comparing migrant crossings to an "invasion", has been heavily criticised for using the figure - which represents a massive proportion of the world's population What the National Socialists said in Germany "task is not to make an objective study of the truth, in so far as it favors the enemy, and then set it before the masses with academic fairness; its task is to serve our own right, always and unflinchingly.” What they did "Propaganda also encouraged passivity and acceptance of the impending measures against Jews, as these appeared to depict the Nazi government as stepping in and “restoring order.” Ummmm...loads more obviously. But I am sure Wareham you can see the danger, which is what Lineker was pointing out. You can witness this on this thread, members using language that uses false depictions of migrants and refugees, absolutely zero academic references to cause (and effect). Just lazy, discriminatory language, taking their cue from the Home Secretary without actually knowing what they are talking about. |
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Post by yattongas on Mar 12, 2023 11:23:13 GMT
[br The debate is about the parallels of language between Germany in 1930s and the current tory government. The Germans used divisive language that alienated the Jews as a threat to ordinary Germans. The current government uses language that alienates the refugees (not illegal because you cannot be an illegal asylum seeker) as a threat to ‘our’ ordinary people. The targets may have changed but the actions and language remain the same. And many of the ‘anti-illegals’ group would definitely have been anti-Jewish refugees in the 1930s. As many (including the Daily Mail and it’s family owners) were. Language and actions are completely different things. You could compare the 2 if we were out there with a pin popping there dinghies in the middle of the channel, but we don’t. That would be a comparison. Talk is cheap, and something needs to be done about it. Can’t just let in everyone, terrorists, sex traffickers, drug traffickers, sex offenders, these people need to be checked, and tracked at our own expense. Your last sentence totally and utterly lets you down . They just like us are people , they will mostly be good but of course there will be a few wrong ‘uns, just like there are wrong ‘uns amongst the UK population . Stop falling for the tropes . |
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Post by miltongas on Mar 12, 2023 11:24:25 GMT
So what's the alternative to the present proposed Government policy, just open up our borders to anybody who wants to move to the UK and then let the whole population of Albania take over the country? I see there are suggestions in the press that Germany are going to follow the proposed Rwanda route, so they are clearly having similar issues. It's easy to criticise the Government, not so easy to come up with an alternative plan, Labour don't seem to many any at present. Build asylum centres in France to document and assess the claims. Legitimate ones can be allowed to enter the UK with the correct documentation and legal permission to live, work and contribute. Anyone making a fraudulent claim will not be allowed. France has made this offer but it doesn’t suit the governments blanket anti-immigration agenda. It’s not Labour’s job to suggest policy. That’s why we have a government - Labour’s job is to hold the government to account for their actions. |
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Post by yattongas on Mar 12, 2023 11:24:32 GMT
So what's the alternative to the present proposed Government policy, just open up our borders to anybody who wants to move to the UK and then let the whole population of Albania take over the country? I see there are suggestions in the press that Germany are going to follow the proposed Rwanda route, so they are clearly having similar issues. It's easy to criticise the Government, not so easy to come up with an alternative plan, Labour don't seem to many any at present. Nobody is calling for open borders 🙄 |
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Post by oldie on Mar 12, 2023 11:27:48 GMT
And, further to my point on language, a member duly obliges
"Can’t just let in everyone, terrorists, sex traffickers, drug traffickers, sex offenders, these people need to be checked, and tracked at our own expense."
Well done Braverman, here you have a fully paid up defender of the faith
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Post by francegas on Mar 12, 2023 11:28:59 GMT
Oldie, I know you can see that the total failure of this government to deal with the issue is at the heart of the problem and the Home Secretary is beyond hope. But the problem has arisen that people feel a genuine concern at some of these economic migrants from all over coming here. They arrive in safe countries but want to come here. The government find a sympathetic press echoing their thoughts and of course this government now is clutching at any straw. But, and you’re right about what the Nazis did I think that was a lifetime away from what’s happening here. This country needs a grown up party that can recognise the problem and deal with it in a competent way so that those in genuine need can come here easily and quickly and those that don’t warrant it can’t. Until that happens the press and others will continue to fight amongst themselves. UTG! ps. We’re straying outside the realms of MOTD!! Agreed in part but this gov has manufactured this situation by not dealing with asylum claims ( look into the processing of applications and how they have nosedived in recent yrs) . There are NO legal ;routes for these people and comparatively we don’t take our fair share . It’s almost as if this current government wants this ‘crisis’ to stoke up cultural wars and wedge issues to deflect from all its multiple failings 🙄 I don't get the argument that there are no legal routes for these people. Home Office Immigrant Statistics Sept 21 - Sept 22 1391... people came via the Refugee resettlement scheme 4786....via the refugee family reunion rules. 72027... Asylum applications submitted. 15987...Asylum given permission to stay rising to 17658 after appeal. In addition 144576...visas issued via the bespoke visa route for people from Hong Kong 186893...visas issued via the 2 Ukrainian schemes 12300...visas via the two schemes for Afghan nationals. So over 360,000 people found safe and legal routes to stay in the UK. Also 11,000 Albanians last year came across on boats . Isn't a €45 Easy Jet flight from Tirana to Gatwick a far safer and legal route to the UK and far cheaper than paying people smugglers 1000s to risk your life in a rubber dinghy. |
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Post by gasheadbatesy on Mar 12, 2023 11:30:22 GMT
Language and actions are completely different things. You could compare the 2 if we were out there with a pin popping there dinghies in the middle of the channel, but we don’t. That would be a comparison. Talk is cheap, and something needs to be done about it. Can’t just let in everyone, terrorists, sex traffickers, drug traffickers, sex offenders, these people need to be checked, and tracked at our own expense. Sorry Batesy but you are wrong. Language matters. Th e dehumanisation of refugees and the language that links ALL of them to criminals is appalling. It leads directly to the actions you clearly support such as killing them in the sea. For parallels see any genocide in history that starts with the language of hate before it becomes physical action we’re not killing them at sea, and why you do you think I would support such actions. Quite strong words your putting it my mouth, yet your miles off the mark in that respect. So let’s just open up the borders then? Let everyone in. Let’s allow full gangs to just walk in our country, set up base where ever, and leave them to it. I hate the conservatives, but I back them on this 1. They need to back it up with actions. |
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Post by yattongas on Mar 12, 2023 11:36:16 GMT
Agreed in part but this gov has manufactured this situation by not dealing with asylum claims ( look into the processing of applications and how they have nosedived in recent yrs) . There are NO legal ;routes for these people and comparatively we don’t take our fair share . It’s almost as if this current government wants this ‘crisis’ to stoke up cultural wars and wedge issues to deflect from all its multiple failings 🙄 I don't get the argument that there are no legal routes for these people. Home Office Immigrant Statistics Sept 21 - Sept 22 1391... people came via the Refugee resettlement scheme 4786....via the refugee family reunion rules. 72027... Asylum applications submitted. 15987...Asylum given permission to stay rising to 17658 after appeal. In addition 144576...visas issued via the bespoke visa route for people from Hong Kong 186893...visas issued via the 2 Ukrainian schemes 12300...visas via the two schemes for Afghan nationals. So over 360,000 people found safe and legal routes to stay in the UK. Also 11,000 Albanians last year came across on boats . Isn't a €45 Easy Jet flight from Tirana to Gatwick a far safer and legal route to the UK and far cheaper than paying people smugglers 1000s to risk your life in a rubber dinghy. Here you go…… |
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Post by yattongas on Mar 12, 2023 11:37:09 GMT
Sorry Batesy but you are wrong. Language matters. Th e dehumanisation of refugees and the language that links ALL of them to criminals is appalling. It leads directly to the actions you clearly support such as killing them in the sea. For parallels see any genocide in history that starts with the language of hate before it becomes physical action we’re not killing them at sea, and why you do you think I would support such actions. Quite strong words your putting it my mouth, yet your miles off the mark in that respect. So let’s just open up the borders then? Let everyone in. Let’s allow full gangs to just walk in our country, set up base where ever, and leave them to it. I hate the conservatives, but I back them on this 1. They need to back it up with actions. Again….. nobody is calling for open borders 🙄 |
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Post by miltongas on Mar 12, 2023 11:38:14 GMT
Sorry Batesy but you are wrong. Language matters. Th e dehumanisation of refugees and the language that links ALL of them to criminals is appalling. It leads directly to the actions you clearly support such as killing them in the sea. For parallels see any genocide in history that starts with the language of hate before it becomes physical action we’re not killing them at sea, and why you do you think I would support such actions. Quite strong words your putting it my mouth, yet your miles off the mark in that respect. So let’s just open up the borders then? Let everyone in. Let’s allow full gangs to just walk in our country, set up base where ever, and leave them to it. I hate the conservatives, but I back them on this 1. They need to back it up with actions. I was using your words to prove the link between actions and language. The language you used correlates directly to the actions you also used. That is the point. I don’t believe in open borders but I believe we could and should do more to help refugees (and those equally vulnerable in society). We could easily open safe routes and proper systems to allow those in genuine need to settle here. |
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Post by gasheadbatesy on Mar 12, 2023 11:39:08 GMT
we’re not killing them at sea, and why you do you think I would support such actions. Quite strong words you’re putting it my mouth, yet your miles off the mark in that respect. So let’s just open up the borders then? Let everyone in. Let’s allow full gangs to just walk in our country, set up base where ever, and leave them to it. I hate the conservatives, but I back them on this 1. They need to back it up with actions. Again….. nobody is calling for open borders 🙄 so what you asking for? |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Mar 12, 2023 11:42:05 GMT
No no Wareham. It's linking the tactics of propaganda and divide & rule. That is exactly what the National Socialists did in the 20s&30s, paving the way for mass murder. Braverman's language in depicting immigrants has horrifying echoes of that time Oldie, I know you can see that the total failure of this government to deal with the issue is at the heart of the problem and the Home Secretary is beyond hope. But the problem has arisen that people feel a genuine concern at some of these economic migrants from all over coming here. They arrive in safe countries but want to come here. The government find a sympathetic press echoing their thoughts and of course this government now is clutching at any straw. But, and you’re right about what the Nazis did I think that was a lifetime away from what’s happening here. This country needs a grown up party that can recognise the problem and deal with it in a competent way so that those in genuine need can come here easily and quickly and those that don’t warrant it can’t. Until that happens the press and others will continue to fight amongst themselves. UTG! ps. We’re straying outside the realms of MOTD!! This is what I don't understand. You have made a good point in a balanced way. Illegal immigration is an issue that needs to be dealt with. Calling them swarms and deporting them to Rowanda is not something I would have expected from a sitting government in this country, even the Tories. Some posters on here are unable or unwilling to understand that it is possible to think immigration is an issue while at the same time recognising that there are very dangerous echos from the past. Indeed some of the language used by some on this thread is nasty. So many people who are proud we beat the Nazis are incredibly intolerant of others. |
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