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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 10:08:56 GMT
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Post by trevorgas on Oct 31, 2023 10:08:56 GMT
Shani Louk is dead. That was the one that was raped and spat on and had her legs broken and a bullet wound at the back of her head. Pirate I think assured me through his unbiased media that she was still alive (as her mother hoped she was still alive) Perhaps you might question the motives and purpose of the media you are choosing to consume. I wonder if, being constructive, what is those supporting Hamas suggest Isreal do? Serious question. What should Isreal do? Her body is still missing though, isn't it? Certainly some of the testimonies coming out suggest that many suffered horrendously, some of which I rather I didn't know about. What I do think is happening is that Hamas and Palestinians are being morphed together and many thinking that by supporting the Palestinians is somehow meaning they support Hamas, or by supporting Hamas they are supporting the Palestinians. The atrocities were designed to be just that imo, to provoke Isreal, and they need to make sure they don't become what they are fighting against. It's not easy, and I don't envy those going out into combat. Whatever happens, there also needs to be a proper attempt to resurrect the peace plan. I believe her body has been recovered. |
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 10:12:12 GMT
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Post by oldie on Oct 31, 2023 10:12:12 GMT
Shani Louk is dead. That was the one that was raped and spat on and had her legs broken and a bullet wound at the back of her head. Pirate I think assured me through his unbiased media that she was still alive (as her mother hoped she was still alive) Perhaps you might question the motives and purpose of the media you are choosing to consume. I wonder if, being constructive, what is those supporting Hamas suggest Isreal do? Serious question. What should Isreal do? Her body is still missing though, isn't it? Certainly some of the testimonies coming out suggest that many suffered horrendously, some of which I rather I didn't know about. What I do think is happening is that Hamas and Palestinians are being morphed together and many thinking that by supporting the Palestinians is somehow meaning they support Hamas, or by supporting Hamas they are supporting the Palestinians. The atrocities were designed to be just that imo, to provoke Isreal, and they need to make sure they don't become what they are fighting against. It's not easy, and I don't envy those going out into combat. Whatever happens, there also needs to be a proper attempt to resurrect the peace plan. Well said |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 31, 2023 10:30:35 GMT
Her body is still missing though, isn't it? Certainly some of the testimonies coming out suggest that many suffered horrendously, some of which I rather I didn't know about. What I do think is happening is that Hamas and Palestinians are being morphed together and many thinking that by supporting the Palestinians is somehow meaning they support Hamas, or by supporting Hamas they are supporting the Palestinians. The atrocities were designed to be just that imo, to provoke Isreal, and they need to make sure they don't become what they are fighting against. It's not easy, and I don't envy those going out into combat. Whatever happens, there also needs to be a proper attempt to resurrect the peace plan. I believe her body has been recovered. Hopefully it was quick and her whole body can be returned to her family. Nobody should go through that ordeal. That goes for all. |
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Post by gulfofaden on Oct 31, 2023 10:52:33 GMT
Shani Louk is dead. That was the one that was raped and spat on and had her legs broken and a bullet wound at the back of her head. Pirate I think assured me through his unbiased media that she was still alive (as her mother hoped she was still alive) Perhaps you might question the motives and purpose of the media you are choosing to consume. I wonder if, being constructive, what is those supporting Hamas suggest Isreal do? Serious question. What should Isreal do? I will try to answer the question posed in your last sentence constructively. First,you are conflating two issues,directly questioning the proportionately of Israel's response does not mean by default you support Hamas. Personally,I like most people abhor any form of terrorism,it is counter productive and in the main targets innocent people. What concerns me greatly is the scale and proportionality of Israel's response,they have made a conscious decision that women and children will be killed as a direct result of the type of military action they are undertaking,of course there will be civilians killed but surely the targeting of residential areas cannot sit well with anyone?. I fully understand their motivation and desire to keep their losses to a minimum, unfortunately they will as in all wars need boots on the ground to achieve their stated objectives, destroyed buildings make excellent defensive cover. In the final analysis Israel will not achieve its stated aim of being able to live in peace,you can kill as many terrorists as you like,you cannot kill an idea. All wars are ended by dialogue , compromise and military victors being magnanimous as the allies were after WW2,that is the model that has by and large worked in Europe and Japan,I would like to see much more effort going that way post this conflict,giving the population hope for a better future marginalises support for terrorists. Where are you getting the idea that Isreal are targeting women and children? It might be the same place that said that isreali woman was still alive? If Hamas are using their own people as human shields how do they take out Hamas and not civilians. Personally I don’t believe a word of what Hamas propaganda claims. I believe Isreal’s account of giving good time and warning. There cannot be a solution while Palestine is governed by religious extremists. They will not come to the table with dialogue. They have a single aim- the destruction of Isreal. It’s about time we actually recognised what the problem is and stopped pretending that these people can be reasoned with. They only understand one language and it’s not the language of dialogue. The entire episode was because a load of religiously motivated psychopaths murdered a ton of innocent Jewish people. |
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 11:37:20 GMT
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Post by oldie on Oct 31, 2023 11:37:20 GMT
I will try to answer the question posed in your last sentence constructively. First,you are conflating two issues,directly questioning the proportionately of Israel's response does not mean by default you support Hamas. Personally,I like most people abhor any form of terrorism,it is counter productive and in the main targets innocent people. What concerns me greatly is the scale and proportionality of Israel's response,they have made a conscious decision that women and children will be killed as a direct result of the type of military action they are undertaking,of course there will be civilians killed but surely the targeting of residential areas cannot sit well with anyone?. I fully understand their motivation and desire to keep their losses to a minimum, unfortunately they will as in all wars need boots on the ground to achieve their stated objectives, destroyed buildings make excellent defensive cover. In the final analysis Israel will not achieve its stated aim of being able to live in peace,you can kill as many terrorists as you like,you cannot kill an idea. All wars are ended by dialogue , compromise and military victors being magnanimous as the allies were after WW2,that is the model that has by and large worked in Europe and Japan,I would like to see much more effort going that way post this conflict,giving the population hope for a better future marginalises support for terrorists. Where are you getting the idea that Isreal are targeting women and children? It might be the same place that said that isreali woman was still alive? If Hamas are using their own people as human shields how do they take out Hamas and not civilians. Personally I don’t believe a word of what Hamas propaganda claims. I believe Isreal’s account of giving good time and warning. There cannot be a solution while Palestine is governed by religious extremists. They will not come to the table with dialogue. They have a single aim- the destruction of Isreal. It’s about time we actually recognised what the problem is and stopped pretending that these people can be reasoned with. They only understand one language and it’s not the language of dialogue. The entire episode was because a load of religiously motivated psychopaths murdered a ton of innocent Jewish people. Is Israel came into being as a State in 1948. What happened between 1948 and 2006, to resolve the issue of Palestinians losing their land as a result? Nothing. People are seduced into the arms of extremists when frustration over their well being is ignored, either by wilful disregard or ill intent. Groups like HAMAS would not exist if not for that. |
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Post by gulfofaden on Oct 31, 2023 11:45:49 GMT
Where are you getting the idea that Isreal are targeting women and children? It might be the same place that said that isreali woman was still alive? If Hamas are using their own people as human shields how do they take out Hamas and not civilians. Personally I don’t believe a word of what Hamas propaganda claims. I believe Isreal’s account of giving good time and warning. There cannot be a solution while Palestine is governed by religious extremists. They will not come to the table with dialogue. They have a single aim- the destruction of Isreal. It’s about time we actually recognised what the problem is and stopped pretending that these people can be reasoned with. They only understand one language and it’s not the language of dialogue. The entire episode was because a load of religiously motivated psychopaths murdered a ton of innocent Jewish people. Is Israel came into being as a State in 1948. What happened between 1948 and 2006, to resolve the issue of Palestinians losing their land as a result? Nothing. People are seduced into the arms of extremists when frustration over their well being is ignored, either by wilful disregard or ill intent. Groups like HAMAS would not exist if not for that. They don’t like diversity then. It’s Jewish land before they were expelled. They are the indigenous inhabitants of anyone has a claim. In 1948 they purchased the land. Most of which was swamp and they turned it into a modern society. All further excursions could have been prevented if they’d had lived peacefully and not repeatedly tried to kill all the Jews along with their mates in neighbouring states who’ve joined in on the cleansing every time they’ve felt strong enough. You’re being quite selective in terms of ownership. Saying it’s Palestinian land is like saying the US is European land rather than Native American |
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Post by trevorgas on Oct 31, 2023 11:52:10 GMT
I will try to answer the question posed in your last sentence constructively. First,you are conflating two issues,directly questioning the proportionately of Israel's response does not mean by default you support Hamas. Personally,I like most people abhor any form of terrorism,it is counter productive and in the main targets innocent people. What concerns me greatly is the scale and proportionality of Israel's response,they have made a conscious decision that women and children will be killed as a direct result of the type of military action they are undertaking,of course there will be civilians killed but surely the targeting of residential areas cannot sit well with anyone?. I fully understand their motivation and desire to keep their losses to a minimum, unfortunately they will as in all wars need boots on the ground to achieve their stated objectives, destroyed buildings make excellent defensive cover. In the final analysis Israel will not achieve its stated aim of being able to live in peace,you can kill as many terrorists as you like,you cannot kill an idea. All wars are ended by dialogue , compromise and military victors being magnanimous as the allies were after WW2,that is the model that has by and large worked in Europe and Japan,I would like to see much more effort going that way post this conflict,giving the population hope for a better future marginalises support for terrorists. Where are you getting the idea that Isreal are targeting women and children? It might be the same place that said that isreali woman was still alive? If Hamas are using their own people as human shields how do they take out Hamas and not civilians. Personally I don’t believe a word of what Hamas propaganda claims. I believe Isreal’s account of giving good time and warning. There cannot be a solution while Palestine is governed by religious extremists. They will not come to the table with dialogue. They have a single aim- the destruction of Isreal. It’s about time we actually recognised what the problem is and stopped pretending that these people can be reasoned with. They only understand one language and it’s not the language of dialogue. The entire episode was because a load of religiously motivated psychopaths murdered a ton of innocent Jewish people. If you read my post I said that Israel had made a conscious decision.....,not that they deliberately target women and children. In the end all wars end with dialogue and reconciliation,if we adopt your approach what's the solution wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth,it's not in the end about revenge it's about both parties being able to live together in a mutually beneficial way. The current approach has not worked for the last 80yrs,doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the definition of stupidity and madness. |
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 11:54:34 GMT
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Post by trevorgas on Oct 31, 2023 11:54:34 GMT
Is Israel came into being as a State in 1948. What happened between 1948 and 2006, to resolve the issue of Palestinians losing their land as a result? Nothing. People are seduced into the arms of extremists when frustration over their well being is ignored, either by wilful disregard or ill intent. Groups like HAMAS would not exist if not for that. They don’t like diversity then. It’s Jewish land before they were expelled. They are the indigenous inhabitants of anyone has a claim. In 1948 they purchased the land. Most of which was swamp and they turned it into a modern society. All further excursions could have been prevented if they’d had lived peacefully and not repeatedly tried to kill all the Jews along with their mates in neighbouring states who’ve joined in on the cleansing every time they’ve felt strong enough. You’re being quite selective in terms of ownership. Saying it’s Palestinian land is like saying the US is European land rather than Native American How long before 1948 was it Jewish land? |
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 11:56:02 GMT
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Post by oldie on Oct 31, 2023 11:56:02 GMT
Is Israel came into being as a State in 1948. What happened between 1948 and 2006, to resolve the issue of Palestinians losing their land as a result? Nothing. People are seduced into the arms of extremists when frustration over their well being is ignored, either by wilful disregard or ill intent. Groups like HAMAS would not exist if not for that. They don’t like diversity then. It’s Jewish land before they were expelled. They are the indigenous inhabitants of anyone has a claim. In 1948 they purchased the land. Most of which was swamp and they turned it into a modern society. All further excursions could have been prevented if they’d had lived peacefully and not repeatedly tried to kill all the Jews along with their mates in neighbouring states who’ve joined in on the cleansing every time they’ve felt strong enough. You’re being quite selective in terms of ownership. Saying it’s Palestinian land is like saying the US is European land rather than Native American Not quite GoA. The peoples of that area of land are genetically the same people. Arabs from that area are Semites, just as the Jews are. It was the separation of their religions that first divided them. Not race or "inheritance". It was the West that decided to set up a Jewish State, starting with the Balfour Declaration and ultimately the UK running Palestine upto 1948. We had a plan, we f"***d it up, the Jews rebelled, fought us and we walked away. The Arab Palestinians? Nobody asked, just made them refugees. And we, in the West, wonder why. |
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stuart1974
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 12:51:37 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 31, 2023 12:51:37 GMT
Starmer today, seems reasonable. Playing with words perhaps but making a distinction between humanitarian aid and a ceasefire. Trying to keep Labour together. All irrelevant to the real world and won't make any difference to events on the ground.
"Ceasefire could leave Hamas 'emboldened' and it would start 'preparing for future violence immediately', says Starmer
Back in the UK, Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer is delivering a statement on the conflict.
He says the 7 October attack was the "biggest slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust" and "terrorism on a scale of brutality that few countries have ever experienced".
Talking about Gaza, he says the region is suffering from a humanitarian catastrophe on an "unimaginable scale", with thousands of Palestinians "reduced to drinking contaminated filth".
But he says a ceasefire could leave Hamas feeling "emboldened" to attack again and they would start "preparing for future violence immediately".
"A ceasefire always freezes any conflict in the state where it currently lies. And as we speak, that would leave Hamas with the infrastructure and the capabilities to carry out the sort of attack we saw on October 7," he adds.
"Attacks that are still ongoing. Hostages who should be released still held."
He believes a humanitarian pause is the "only credible approach" to the conflict and it should start "immediately".
"In fact it is at this moment, the only credible approach that has any chance to achieve what we all want to see in Gaza, the urgent alleviation of Palestinian suffering," he adds."
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 14:16:44 GMT
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Post by gulfofaden on Oct 31, 2023 14:16:44 GMT
They don’t like diversity then. It’s Jewish land before they were expelled. They are the indigenous inhabitants of anyone has a claim. In 1948 they purchased the land. Most of which was swamp and they turned it into a modern society. All further excursions could have been prevented if they’d had lived peacefully and not repeatedly tried to kill all the Jews along with their mates in neighbouring states who’ve joined in on the cleansing every time they’ve felt strong enough. You’re being quite selective in terms of ownership. Saying it’s Palestinian land is like saying the US is European land rather than Native American Not quite GoA. The peoples of that area of land are genetically the same people. Arabs from that area are Semites, just as the Jews are. It was the separation of their religions that first divided them. Not race or "inheritance". It was the West that decided to set up a Jewish State, starting with the Balfour Declaration and ultimately the UK running Palestine upto 1948. We had a plan, we f"***d it up, the Jews rebelled, fought us and we walked away. The Arab Palestinians? Nobody asked, just made them refugees. And we, in the West, wonder why. Are you suggesting that expelling people from their land is only an issue if they are of a different race? Jews are Arabs, yes, I don’t see what bit of difference that makes. Protestants persecuting catholics we’re of the same race. I don’t see what relevance that has. Over a million Jews were expelled from Islamic Arabian countries over the last century but not a dicky bird. As I’ve said before, the left has a curious affinity with a religion which hates them, yet they tolerate each other as they are both broadly anti-capitalist. That’s the only reason I have for why we are having this discussion. The Jews have a tiny strip of land, surrounded in a sea of crescents. A few Jews in the Middle East and there is outrage - and resolution to wipe every one of them from the face of the earth, or drive them to the sea. This is out and proud, it’s not a secret. And…suddenly the Palestinians, who aren’t well liked within the Arab world for a start, are this enormous cause - everything, except allowing them refuge. That’s europes job, of course. This is about fulfilling Jewish genocide built on religious doctrine and rhetoric. If Palestine offered peace and laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Isreal did the same, they would be dead. You know it, I know it, we all know it. Stop holding them to a lower bar and the Israelis to an impossibly high one. |
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yattongas
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 14:28:50 GMT
Post by yattongas on Oct 31, 2023 14:28:50 GMT
Not quite GoA. The peoples of that area of land are genetically the same people. Arabs from that area are Semites, just as the Jews are. It was the separation of their religions that first divided them. Not race or "inheritance". It was the West that decided to set up a Jewish State, starting with the Balfour Declaration and ultimately the UK running Palestine upto 1948. We had a plan, we f"***d it up, the Jews rebelled, fought us and we walked away. The Arab Palestinians? Nobody asked, just made them refugees. And we, in the West, wonder why. Are you suggesting that expelling people from their land is only an issue if they are of a different race? Jews are Arabs, yes, I don’t see what bit of difference that makes. Protestants persecuting catholics we’re of the same race. I don’t see what relevance that has. Over a million Jews were expelled from Islamic Arabian countries over the last century but not a dicky bird. As I’ve said before, the left has a curious affinity with a religion which hates them, yet they tolerate each other as they are both broadly anti-capitalist. That’s the only reason I have for why we are having this discussion. The Jews have a tiny strip of land, surrounded in a sea of crescents. A few Jews in the Middle East and there is outrage - and resolution to wipe every one of them from the face of the earth, or drive them to the sea. This is out and proud, it’s not a secret. And…suddenly the Palestinians, who aren’t well liked within the Arab world for a start, are this enormous cause - everything, except allowing them refuge. That’s europes job, of course. This is about fulfilling Jewish genocide built on religious doctrine and rhetoric. If Palestine offered peace and laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Isreal did the same, they would be dead. You know it, I know it, we all know it. Stop holding them to a lower bar and the Israelis to an impossibly high one. “The left” 🙄😂 |
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 14:47:48 GMT
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Post by gulfofaden on Oct 31, 2023 14:47:48 GMT
Are you suggesting that expelling people from their land is only an issue if they are of a different race? Jews are Arabs, yes, I don’t see what bit of difference that makes. Protestants persecuting catholics we’re of the same race. I don’t see what relevance that has. Over a million Jews were expelled from Islamic Arabian countries over the last century but not a dicky bird. As I’ve said before, the left has a curious affinity with a religion which hates them, yet they tolerate each other as they are both broadly anti-capitalist. That’s the only reason I have for why we are having this discussion. The Jews have a tiny strip of land, surrounded in a sea of crescents. A few Jews in the Middle East and there is outrage - and resolution to wipe every one of them from the face of the earth, or drive them to the sea. This is out and proud, it’s not a secret. And…suddenly the Palestinians, who aren’t well liked within the Arab world for a start, are this enormous cause - everything, except allowing them refuge. That’s europes job, of course. This is about fulfilling Jewish genocide built on religious doctrine and rhetoric. If Palestine offered peace and laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Isreal did the same, they would be dead. You know it, I know it, we all know it. Stop holding them to a lower bar and the Israelis to an impossibly high one. “The left” 🙄😂 People who vote green or labour. |
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yattongas
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 14:51:52 GMT
Post by yattongas on Oct 31, 2023 14:51:52 GMT
People who vote green or labour. So all people supporting Palestinians are lefties and those supporting Israel are from the right . Have I got this correct? |
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 15:18:04 GMT
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Post by gulfofaden on Oct 31, 2023 15:18:04 GMT
People who vote green or labour. So all people supporting Palestinians are lefties and those supporting Israel are from the right . Have I got this correct? Go away, Yatton |
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yattongas
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 15:37:27 GMT
Post by yattongas on Oct 31, 2023 15:37:27 GMT
So all people supporting Palestinians are lefties and those supporting Israel are from the right . Have I got this correct? Go away, Yatton That’s not very nice Gulf |
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 16:27:34 GMT
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Post by gulfofaden on Oct 31, 2023 16:27:34 GMT
That’s not very nice Gulf Wafts away with hand |
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yattongas
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 16:32:05 GMT
Post by yattongas on Oct 31, 2023 16:32:05 GMT
That’s not very nice Gulf Wafts away with hand Thought we were getting on ok , oh well. 😘 |
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stuart1974
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Israel
Oct 31, 2023 23:37:08 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Oct 31, 2023 23:37:08 GMT
Houthis in Yemen launched a third missile towards Isreal today, Iranian proxies in Syria have attacked US forces 34 times in two weeks and 5 rocket attacks over Tel Aviv today.
Meanwhile, US and Isreali diplomats have talked about a post conflict Gaza with possible peacekeepers. Not sure non Arab forces would be a good idea.
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Post by supergas on Nov 1, 2023 7:21:07 GMT
Shani Louk is dead. That was the one that was raped and spat on and had her legs broken and a bullet wound at the back of her head. Pirate I think assured me through his unbiased media that she was still alive (as her mother hoped she was still alive) Perhaps you might question the motives and purpose of the media you are choosing to consume. I wonder if, being constructive, what is those supporting Hamas suggest Isreal do? Serious question. What should Isreal do? Her body is still missing though, isn't it? Certainly some of the testimonies coming out suggest that many suffered horrendously, some of which I rather I didn't know about. What I do think is happening is that Hamas and Palestinians are being morphed together and many thinking that by supporting the Palestinians is somehow meaning they support Hamas, or by supporting Hamas they are supporting the Palestinians. The atrocities were designed to be just that imo, to provoke Isreal, and they need to make sure they don't become what they are fighting against. It's not easy, and I don't envy those going out into combat. Whatever happens, there also needs to be a proper attempt to resurrect the peace plan. How would they even start to resurrect a peace plan? Can't imagine the Israelis have any desire to sit down and talk because at best they are talking to a group of terrorists who in the last month alone have killed nearly 1500 Israelis and day one of the attacks has been rightly described by several people as "... the worst single-day massacre of Jews since the Holocaust..." - and at worst they would be talking to a group that would use a break in hostilities to re-group, re-arm and plan to do the same thing again... I think your point about Palestinians and Hamas being lumped together is a good one in general, but it *is* Hamas who is embedding itself in Palestine and often forcing the two entities to be considered at least in the same breath. We know they deliberately place their 'barracks' in residential areas, we know they place command and control locations in or near key locations like hospitals or schools or other public areas - purely so they are less likely to be attacked if they are discovered. ...and there is only one way to separate the people of Palestine and the terrorist group Hamas - and that is physical separation inside Gaza. Hamas won't do that, so sooner or later we all have to come to the realisation that the best way to start peace is to remove Hamas from Palestine by force. Since the Palestinians can't do that themselves we then have to ask who and how, and whilst the Israelis are definitely not anyone's first/second/third choice to do that, no one else wants to... |
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