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Israel
Nov 1, 2023 9:50:56 GMT
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 1, 2023 9:50:56 GMT
Her body is still missing though, isn't it? Certainly some of the testimonies coming out suggest that many suffered horrendously, some of which I rather I didn't know about. What I do think is happening is that Hamas and Palestinians are being morphed together and many thinking that by supporting the Palestinians is somehow meaning they support Hamas, or by supporting Hamas they are supporting the Palestinians. The atrocities were designed to be just that imo, to provoke Isreal, and they need to make sure they don't become what they are fighting against. It's not easy, and I don't envy those going out into combat. Whatever happens, there also needs to be a proper attempt to resurrect the peace plan. How would they even start to resurrect a peace plan? Can't imagine the Israelis have any desire to sit down and talk because at best they are talking to a group of terrorists who in the last month alone have killed nearly 1500 Israelis and day one of the attacks has been rightly described by several people as "... the worst single-day massacre of Jews since the Holocaust..." - and at worst they would be talking to a group that would use a break in hostilities to re-group, re-arm and plan to do the same thing again... I think your point about Palestinians and Hamas being lumped together is a good one in general, but it *is* Hamas who is embedding itself in Palestine and often forcing the two entities to be considered at least in the same breath. We know they deliberately place their 'barracks' in residential areas, we know they place command and control locations in or near key locations like hospitals or schools or other public areas - purely so they are less likely to be attacked if they are discovered. ...and there is only one way to separate the people of Palestine and the terrorist group Hamas - and that is physical separation inside Gaza. Hamas won't do that, so sooner or later we all have to come to the realisation that the best way to start peace is to remove Hamas from Palestine by force. Since the Palestinians can't do that themselves we then have to ask who and how, and whilst the Israelis are definitely not anyone's first/second/third choice to do that, no one else wants to... With some sparse interludes, the history of the Jews under Islam after the conquests - and yes, they were conquests. Brutal, expansionist conquests, just as the western empires did, was one of subjection. Europeans led conquests to oppose this, to liberate the holy land. This is somehow warped to be an act of aggression in modern context. Really, the Jews returning would be akin to the native Americans establishing reservations (as they do) and the US citizenry demanding the land back, and every one of them dead. Most of those supporting the Palestinian claim I am certain would have sympathies with those societies. In this conflict, they’ve completely ignored the expansionist empire building of Islam, where a huge swathe of land was taken by force against the wishes of their inhabitants - and isolated out the concerns of one small group of people who made way for those who were expelled to return. Very, very selective. Viewing the Middle East as a whole helps. |
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Post by oldie on Nov 1, 2023 13:10:29 GMT
How would they even start to resurrect a peace plan? Can't imagine the Israelis have any desire to sit down and talk because at best they are talking to a group of terrorists who in the last month alone have killed nearly 1500 Israelis and day one of the attacks has been rightly described by several people as "... the worst single-day massacre of Jews since the Holocaust..." - and at worst they would be talking to a group that would use a break in hostilities to re-group, re-arm and plan to do the same thing again... I think your point about Palestinians and Hamas being lumped together is a good one in general, but it *is* Hamas who is embedding itself in Palestine and often forcing the two entities to be considered at least in the same breath. We know they deliberately place their 'barracks' in residential areas, we know they place command and control locations in or near key locations like hospitals or schools or other public areas - purely so they are less likely to be attacked if they are discovered. ...and there is only one way to separate the people of Palestine and the terrorist group Hamas - and that is physical separation inside Gaza. Hamas won't do that, so sooner or later we all have to come to the realisation that the best way to start peace is to remove Hamas from Palestine by force. Since the Palestinians can't do that themselves we then have to ask who and how, and whilst the Israelis are definitely not anyone's first/second/third choice to do that, no one else wants to... With some sparse interludes, the history of the Jews under Islam after the conquests - and yes, they were conquests. Brutal, expansionist conquests, just as the western empires did, was one of subjection. Europeans led conquests to oppose this, to liberate the holy land. This is somehow warped to be an act of aggression in modern context. Really, the Jews returning would be akin to the native Americans establishing reservations (as they do) and the US citizenry demanding the land back, and every one of them dead. Most of those supporting the Palestinian claim I am certain would have sympathies with those societies. In this conflict, they’ve completely ignored the expansionist empire building of Islam, where a huge swathe of land was taken by force against the wishes of their inhabitants - and isolated out the concerns of one small group of people who made way for those who were expelled to return. Very, very selective. Viewing the Middle East as a whole helps. A bit selective GoA. In modern times the million Jews you quote happened after the creation of the Israeli state in 1948. That was a mess created by the way it was created. The dissolution of the Ottoman empire after and the break up of what we once knew as Mesopotamia and the creation of countries like Iraq, Syria etc also led to the break up of long standing Jewish communities in those areas. Guess who did that? UK/France. This is a lovely book, written by someone who lived it. Farewell, Babylon: Coming of Age in Jewish Baghdad amzn.eu/d/0YPVXv8"In Farewell, Babylon, Naim Kattan takes readers into the heart of exotic mid-19th-century Baghdad's then-teeming Jewish community. Jews had lived in Iraq for 25 centuries, long before the time of Christ or Muhammad, but anti-Semitism and nationalism were on the rise" |
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Israel
Nov 1, 2023 13:51:10 GMT
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 1, 2023 13:51:10 GMT
With some sparse interludes, the history of the Jews under Islam after the conquests - and yes, they were conquests. Brutal, expansionist conquests, just as the western empires did, was one of subjection. Europeans led conquests to oppose this, to liberate the holy land. This is somehow warped to be an act of aggression in modern context. Really, the Jews returning would be akin to the native Americans establishing reservations (as they do) and the US citizenry demanding the land back, and every one of them dead. Most of those supporting the Palestinian claim I am certain would have sympathies with those societies. In this conflict, they’ve completely ignored the expansionist empire building of Islam, where a huge swathe of land was taken by force against the wishes of their inhabitants - and isolated out the concerns of one small group of people who made way for those who were expelled to return. Very, very selective. Viewing the Middle East as a whole helps. A bit selective GoA. In modern times the million Jews you quote happened after the creation of the Israeli state in 1948. That was a mess created by the way it was created. The dissolution of the Ottoman empire after and the break up of what we once knew as Mesopotamia and the creation of countries like Iraq, Syria etc also led to the break up of long standing Jewish communities in those areas. Guess who did that? UK/France. This is a lovely book, written by someone who lived it. Farewell, Babylon: Coming of Age in Jewish Baghdad amzn.eu/d/0YPVXv8"In Farewell, Babylon, Naim Kattan takes readers into the heart of exotic mid-19th-century Baghdad's then-teeming Jewish community. Jews had lived in Iraq for 25 centuries, long before the time of Christ or Muhammad, but anti-Semitism and nationalism were on the rise" “Us”. You separate Palestinians from Hamas. You said directly earlier that support for the Palestinians isn’t support for Hamas. Are “we” responsible for the actions of our governments from before we were born? |
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Post by oldie on Nov 1, 2023 16:53:42 GMT
A bit selective GoA. In modern times the million Jews you quote happened after the creation of the Israeli state in 1948. That was a mess created by the way it was created. The dissolution of the Ottoman empire after and the break up of what we once knew as Mesopotamia and the creation of countries like Iraq, Syria etc also led to the break up of long standing Jewish communities in those areas. Guess who did that? UK/France. This is a lovely book, written by someone who lived it. Farewell, Babylon: Coming of Age in Jewish Baghdad amzn.eu/d/0YPVXv8"In Farewell, Babylon, Naim Kattan takes readers into the heart of exotic mid-19th-century Baghdad's then-teeming Jewish community. Jews had lived in Iraq for 25 centuries, long before the time of Christ or Muhammad, but anti-Semitism and nationalism were on the rise" “Us”. You separate Palestinians from Hamas. You said directly earlier that support for the Palestinians isn’t support for Hamas. Are “we” responsible for the actions of our governments from before we were born? Are we responsible? Perhaps not. Are we accountable? Yes we are. We cannot wilfully disown our history because we now realise what we did was a disgrace. Surely we do have a responsibility to acknowledge and teach it, in order that we don't repeat it. Surely? |
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Israel
Nov 1, 2023 18:34:18 GMT
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 1, 2023 18:34:18 GMT
“Us”. You separate Palestinians from Hamas. You said directly earlier that support for the Palestinians isn’t support for Hamas. Are “we” responsible for the actions of our governments from before we were born? Are we responsible? Perhaps not. Are we accountable? Yes we are. We cannot wilfully disown our history because we now realise what we did was a disgrace. Surely we do have a responsibility to acknowledge and teach it, in order that we don't repeat it. Surely? And by extension the Palestinian people are responsible for Hamas by that reckoning. You can’t have one without the other. It would be masochistic to insist you yourself are judged on the collective actions of others and for others to be treated on the basis of their own character. |
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Israel
Nov 1, 2023 20:36:56 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 1, 2023 20:36:56 GMT
No chance of a ceasefire, little incentive for either side. "Meanwhile, Hamas official Ghazi Hamad, from the group's political bureau, told Lebanese TV Israel's "occupation must come to an end. I am talking about all the Palestinian lands". Asked by the interviewer: "Does that mean the annihilation of Israel?", he replied: "Yes of course." He said "we are the victims" and vowed that the group would carry out more attacks like it did on 7 October, when militants stormed the Israel border and killed more than 1,400 Israelis in what Hamas called the "Al Aqsa Flood". Hamas also took more than 200 hostages during the raids. Mr Hamad said: "The Al Aqsa Flood is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth, because we have the determination, the resolve, and the capabilities to fight." " news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-war-new-hamas-video-purportedly-shows-militants-targeting-tank-as-official-warns-of-more-7-october-style-attacks-12998251 |
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Post by oldie on Nov 1, 2023 20:40:00 GMT
Are we responsible? Perhaps not. Are we accountable? Yes we are. We cannot wilfully disown our history because we now realise what we did was a disgrace. Surely we do have a responsibility to acknowledge and teach it, in order that we don't repeat it. Surely? And by extension the Palestinian people are responsible for Hamas by that reckoning. You can’t have one without the other. It would be masochistic to insist you yourself are judged on the collective actions of others and for others to be treated on the basis of their own character. That's a false equivalence. You cannot compare bankrupt, poverty stricken lands, suffering a blockade by a powerful neighbour, with a country which at the height of our imperialist and colonising worse was militarily and most likely economically one of the most, if not the most, powerful in the world. HAMAS are not the Palestinians. The Palestinians are a nation displaced by the creation of Israel and this has been a running sore since 1948 during which time the world has done nothing about it. HAMAS in Palestine is a result of this. |
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 3:50:46 GMT
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 2, 2023 3:50:46 GMT
And by extension the Palestinian people are responsible for Hamas by that reckoning. You can’t have one without the other. It would be masochistic to insist you yourself are judged on the collective actions of others and for others to be treated on the basis of their own character. That's a false equivalence. You cannot compare bankrupt, poverty stricken lands, suffering a blockade by a powerful neighbour, with a country which at the height of our imperialist and colonising worse was militarily and most likely economically one of the most, if not the most, powerful in the world. HAMAS are not the Palestinians. The Palestinians are a nation displaced by the creation of Israel and this has been a running sore since 1948 during which time the world has done nothing about it. HAMAS in Palestine is a result of this. That’s not the principle discussed and you know it. Waxing about sympathy doesn’t change the principles. People aren’t responsible for the actions of their governments. You can’t hold current day Britons accountable for the actions of their great great grandparent. |
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Post by oldie on Nov 2, 2023 9:15:17 GMT
That's a false equivalence. You cannot compare bankrupt, poverty stricken lands, suffering a blockade by a powerful neighbour, with a country which at the height of our imperialist and colonising worse was militarily and most likely economically one of the most, if not the most, powerful in the world. HAMAS are not the Palestinians. The Palestinians are a nation displaced by the creation of Israel and this has been a running sore since 1948 during which time the world has done nothing about it. HAMAS in Palestine is a result of this. That’s not the principle discussed and you know it. Waxing about sympathy doesn’t change the principles. People aren’t responsible for the actions of their governments. You can’t hold current day Britons accountable for the actions of their great great grandparent. The difficulty for that approach is the areas who were victims have not forgotten and continue to call it out. Kenya being the most recent example. Home with the lurgy at the moment so watched the midday Politics show on BBC. A discussion was had on the way we acted in the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya. This was about: "The Mau Mau rebellion was a response to decades of British colonialism and the land grabbing policies that were pursued by British settlers in Kenya. The Kikuyu people had been displaced from their ancestral lands and forced to work as low-paid laborers on European farms, leading to widespread poverty and social unrest." Any parallels there"? In response we: "The British responded to the rebellion with a brutal counter-insurgency campaign that involved the use of torture, detention without trial, and summary executions. The British also implemented a policy of “villagization,” where they forcibly relocated Kikuyu people into concentration camps, in an attempt to quell the rebellion. The treatment of the Mau Mau by the British has led to compensation claims in the courts. Last year the British government agreed to pay out £19.9m in costs and compensation to more than 5,000 elderly Kenyans who suffered torture and abuse during the Mau Mau uprising in the 50s. Two of those involved in the recent case were women and further female compensation cases are pending." All of that was in the 1950s, not ancient history. Not only have we been held to account, we have admitted liability and paid compensation. |
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 11:08:29 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 2, 2023 11:08:29 GMT
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 11:12:03 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 2, 2023 11:12:03 GMT
Silly But if you were responsible for the brand, you would drop that take like a stone. |
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 11:44:49 GMT
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 2, 2023 11:44:49 GMT
Silly But if you were responsible for the brand, you would drop that take like a stone. Over reaction,however it's the world we live in ,little objectivity as this was filmed in August. Agree with Les you would drop it like a hot potato or you take the view it will encourage more people to view!! |
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 11:49:48 GMT
Post by supergas on Nov 2, 2023 11:49:48 GMT
Aldi are busy filming someone blowtorching blue and white christmas paper hats as we speak.... |
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 12:02:51 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 2, 2023 12:02:51 GMT
Aldi are busy filming someone blowtorching blue and white christmas paper hats as we speak.... Distasteful |
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 12:32:21 GMT
Post by supergas on Nov 2, 2023 12:32:21 GMT
Aldi are busy filming someone blowtorching blue and white christmas paper hats as we speak.... Distasteful I will admit I wrote the joke in a hurry and wish I'd used a different metaphor rather than blowtorching. Having said that the original issue is nonsense.... |
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 13:20:52 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 2, 2023 13:20:52 GMT
Silly But if you were responsible for the brand, you would drop that take like a stone. Agree on both counts. This is where Clive’s comment recently about social media affecting politics. It's probably more in the commercial world where the instant messaging gets amplified and PR starts to kick in. |
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 13:34:58 GMT
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eric likes this
Post by trevorgas on Nov 2, 2023 13:34:58 GMT
Silly But if you were responsible for the brand, you would drop that take like a stone. Agree on both counts. This is where Clive’s comment recently about social media affecting politics. It's probably more in the commercial world where the instant messaging gets amplified and PR starts to kick in. Agreed, who'd want to be an Ad man these days absolute minefield. |
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Post by oldie on Nov 2, 2023 14:49:06 GMT
Agree on both counts. This is where Clive’s comment recently about social media affecting politics. It's probably more in the commercial world where the instant messaging gets amplified and PR starts to kick in. Agreed, who'd want to be an Ad man these days absolute minefield. I actually think it challenges communications, both internal and external, to be more thoughtful and professional. Trying to be funny and appear clever has its limitations, especially when the final outcome is crass and insensitive. If anyone doesn't understand what is crass and insensitive they should not be in the job. They could of course apply to be Boris Johnson's spokesperson. |
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 2, 2023 15:43:24 GMT
That’s not the principle discussed and you know it. Waxing about sympathy doesn’t change the principles. People aren’t responsible for the actions of their governments. You can’t hold current day Britons accountable for the actions of their great great grandparent. The difficulty for that approach is the areas who were victims have not forgotten and continue to call it out. Kenya being the most recent example. Home with the lurgy at the moment so watched the midday Politics show on BBC. A discussion was had on the way we acted in the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya. This was about: "The Mau Mau rebellion was a response to decades of British colonialism and the land grabbing policies that were pursued by British settlers in Kenya. The Kikuyu people had been displaced from their ancestral lands and forced to work as low-paid laborers on European farms, leading to widespread poverty and social unrest." Any parallels there"? In response we: "The British responded to the rebellion with a brutal counter-insurgency campaign that involved the use of torture, detention without trial, and summary executions. The British also implemented a policy of “villagization,” where they forcibly relocated Kikuyu people into concentration camps, in an attempt to quell the rebellion. The treatment of the Mau Mau by the British has led to compensation claims in the courts. Last year the British government agreed to pay out £19.9m in costs and compensation to more than 5,000 elderly Kenyans who suffered torture and abuse during the Mau Mau uprising in the 50s. Two of those involved in the recent case were women and further female compensation cases are pending." All of that was in the 1950s, not ancient history. Not only have we been held to account, we have admitted liability and paid compensation. What does that have to do with any living British person? Other than when you speak to a Kenyan about history? You’ve still not answered the point and are just ramping up the shame porn. It doesn’t matter if the British empire burned them alive. The collective “we” you are using doesn’t apply to me. I wasn’t born then. You’re very tied to the idea that Palestinians aren’t Hamas, there is a distinction. Well, the British military and governance structures of the 1950s are nothing to do with me. Reposting another heart-string pulling incidence of when Britain did this or that won’t have any furtherance to this discussion. I learned long ago that shame reflexes aren’t of any use and are just sticks to beat someone with and manipulate people with. Do you hold living Germans accountable for the war? Do you hold Chinese citizens accountable for the actions of the CCP? If the answer is no, why do you hold yourself to account on the same standard? Applying more rigorous standards to yourself than you expect of others isn’t logical. It’s safer - that’s for sure. It’s easier to fall down in a submissive pile of jelly. No doubt the British empire did some awful things but no one alive is responsible today. Most British people were working in coal mines and getting gored on distant battlefields for the interests of the wealthy, yet I’m not trying to audit the past and make Tarquin of Old Windsor accountable. If you want to make British people today accountable for the actions of people long dead who were born on the same island, making the Palestinians guilty for electing, and not deposing Hamas where most of those who voted are still alive is the price you pay. I don’t agree with it, but you have to pick a position on the principle and not merely waffle about wrongdoings to get an emotional capitulation. |
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 17:09:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by oldie on Nov 2, 2023 17:09:50 GMT
The difficulty for that approach is the areas who were victims have not forgotten and continue to call it out. Kenya being the most recent example. Home with the lurgy at the moment so watched the midday Politics show on BBC. A discussion was had on the way we acted in the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya. This was about: "The Mau Mau rebellion was a response to decades of British colonialism and the land grabbing policies that were pursued by British settlers in Kenya. The Kikuyu people had been displaced from their ancestral lands and forced to work as low-paid laborers on European farms, leading to widespread poverty and social unrest." Any parallels there"? In response we: "The British responded to the rebellion with a brutal counter-insurgency campaign that involved the use of torture, detention without trial, and summary executions. The British also implemented a policy of “villagization,” where they forcibly relocated Kikuyu people into concentration camps, in an attempt to quell the rebellion. The treatment of the Mau Mau by the British has led to compensation claims in the courts. Last year the British government agreed to pay out £19.9m in costs and compensation to more than 5,000 elderly Kenyans who suffered torture and abuse during the Mau Mau uprising in the 50s. Two of those involved in the recent case were women and further female compensation cases are pending." All of that was in the 1950s, not ancient history. Not only have we been held to account, we have admitted liability and paid compensation. What does that have to do with any living British person? Other than when you speak to a Kenyan about history? You’ve still not answered the point and are just ramping up the shame porn. It doesn’t matter if the British empire burned them alive. The collective “we” you are using doesn’t apply to me. I wasn’t born then. You’re very tied to the idea that Palestinians aren’t Hamas, there is a distinction. Well, the British military and governance structures of the 1950s are nothing to do with me. Reposting another heart-string pulling incidence of when Britain did this or that won’t have any furtherance to this discussion. I learned long ago that shame reflexes aren’t of any use and are just sticks to beat someone with and manipulate people with. Do you hold living Germans accountable for the war? Do you hold Chinese citizens accountable for the actions of the CCP? If the answer is no, why do you hold yourself to account on the same standard? Applying more rigorous standards to yourself than you expect of others isn’t logical. It’s safer - that’s for sure. It’s easier to fall down in a submissive pile of jelly. No doubt the British empire did some awful things but no one alive is responsible today. Most British people were working in coal mines and getting gored on distant battlefields for the interests of the wealthy, yet I’m not trying to audit the past and make Tarquin of Old Windsor accountable. If you want to make British people today accountable for the actions of people long dead who were born on the same island, making the Palestinians guilty for electing, and not deposing Hamas where most of those who voted are still alive is the price you pay. I don’t agree with it, but you have to pick a position on the principle and not merely waffle about wrongdoings to get an emotional capitulation. It does impact you. The £19 million just paid out has just come out of our taxation. Actions of 70 years ago having consequences today. For you, for me. To triangulate back to topic, the actions of 1948 and the dying embers of our colonialist past (albeit with a bit of a UN mandate) leads straight to where we are today in Palestine. Watched a discussion lunchtime over to cease fire or not to cease fire. The guy from The Economist argued the real concern for Israel now is what will Iran and it's proxy Hesbollah do if this carries on. I thought then of course about why is Iran in play. You are going to hate me. In 1952 we (UK) in cahoots with the CIA fermented a Coup which overthrew a democratically elected President in Iran (democracy being a fragile flower there at the best of times). His crime? He intended to nationalise the Iranian oil industry which was controlled by what we now know as BP. The coup happened and the son of the former Shah (king) was imposed on the Iranian people. He was a despot and ruled through fear and patronage surviving some dodgy times in the '60s and propped up by us and the US militarily. His relationship with Israel was excellent, the local secret police SAVAK, in cahoots with MOSSAD learning how to suppress dissent, of which there was quite a bit and many people disappeared or were imprisoned. You can then draw a direct line from 1952 to 1979 when it all blew up once and for all. What was left of the old democrats were all killed along with any so called western style intellectuals. I believe between 1980 and 1982 some 50,000 people were killed. Would any of that happened if we had not sought and succeed in overthrowing the Iranian government in 1952. Probably not. Now we have a fascist theocracy in Iran teetering on the verge of unleashing Hesbollah on Israel, armed to the teeth and trained militarily to a far higher degree than HAMAS. You can look the other way and say nothing to do with me guv, but don't be surprised if those that suffered the consequences of what we did don't agree, and it bites you in the ass. |
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