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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 17:22:03 GMT
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 2, 2023 17:22:03 GMT
What does that have to do with any living British person? Other than when you speak to a Kenyan about history? You’ve still not answered the point and are just ramping up the shame porn. It doesn’t matter if the British empire burned them alive. The collective “we” you are using doesn’t apply to me. I wasn’t born then. You’re very tied to the idea that Palestinians aren’t Hamas, there is a distinction. Well, the British military and governance structures of the 1950s are nothing to do with me. Reposting another heart-string pulling incidence of when Britain did this or that won’t have any furtherance to this discussion. I learned long ago that shame reflexes aren’t of any use and are just sticks to beat someone with and manipulate people with. Do you hold living Germans accountable for the war? Do you hold Chinese citizens accountable for the actions of the CCP? If the answer is no, why do you hold yourself to account on the same standard? Applying more rigorous standards to yourself than you expect of others isn’t logical. It’s safer - that’s for sure. It’s easier to fall down in a submissive pile of jelly. No doubt the British empire did some awful things but no one alive is responsible today. Most British people were working in coal mines and getting gored on distant battlefields for the interests of the wealthy, yet I’m not trying to audit the past and make Tarquin of Old Windsor accountable. If you want to make British people today accountable for the actions of people long dead who were born on the same island, making the Palestinians guilty for electing, and not deposing Hamas where most of those who voted are still alive is the price you pay. I don’t agree with it, but you have to pick a position on the principle and not merely waffle about wrongdoings to get an emotional capitulation. It does impact you. The £19 million just paid out has just come out of our taxation. Actions of 70 years ago having consequences today. For you, for me. To triangulate back to topic, the actions of 1948 and the dying embers of our colonialist past (albeit with a bit of a UN mandate) leads straight to where we are today in Palestine. Watched a discussion lunchtime over to cease fire or not to cease fire. The guy from The Economist argued the real concern for Israel now is what will Iran and it's proxy Hesbollah do if this carries on. I thought then of course about why is Iran in play. You are going to hate me. In 1952 we (UK) in cahoots with the CIA fermented a Coup which overthrew a democratically elected President in Iran (democracy being a fragile flower there at the best of times). His crime? He intended to nationalise the Iranian oil industry which was controlled by what we now know as BP. The coup happened and the son of the former Shah (king) was imposed on the Iranian people. He was a despot and ruled through fear and patronage surviving some dodgy times in the '60s and propped up by us and the US militarily. His relationship with Israel was excellent, the local secret police SAVAK, in cahoots with MOSSAD learning how to suppress dissent, of which there was quite a bit and many people disappeared or were imprisoned. You can then draw a direct line from 1952 to 1979 when it all blew up once and for all. What was left of the old democrats were all killed along with any so called western style intellectuals. I believe between 1980 and 1982 some 50,000 people were killed. Would any of that happened if we had not sought and succeed in overthrowing the Iranian government in 1952. Probably not. Now we have a fascist theocracy in Iran teetering on the verge of unleashing Hesbollah on Israel, armed to the teeth and trained militarily to a far higher degree than HAMAS. You can look the other way and say nothing to do with me guv, but don't be surprised if those that suffered the consequences of what we did don't agree, and it bites you in the ass. “It’s nothing to do with me guv” What did I do? What do you suggest we do to change it? When the ottomans conquered the caucus, they exported their women as sex slaves. The largest slave trade of all time. With the boys, they made the highest rank for a local to be a castrated transvestite prostitute or entertainer. Performing monkeys for their Islamic masters. Perhaps Europe’s attitude to the Islamic world was femented on this kind of thing. Perhaps not. The entire spectrum of Human history has been one of conquest and greed. From all sides. You think playing nice will solve that? Ot are you simply picking the other team? The strongest world powers of their age always have and always will look to use that advantage. The Spanish Armada was an example when we were on the wrong end. The Norman conquest. History is littered with it. At the end of the day I don’t doubt your version of events. Here we are. We have a good section of the world who hates us for being that dominant power. If you think those with an axe to grind will play nice if we do, you’re sorely mistaken. It’s incumbent on the people here of the present day to protect our interests and make sure WE are not eventually brought into a subservient position. Take a 5 minute look at social media to see some of the ideas those with a hatred of Britain and Europeans would do given a chance. |
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Israel
Nov 2, 2023 17:55:18 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 2, 2023 17:55:18 GMT
It does impact you. The £19 million just paid out has just come out of our taxation. Actions of 70 years ago having consequences today. For you, for me. To triangulate back to topic, the actions of 1948 and the dying embers of our colonialist past (albeit with a bit of a UN mandate) leads straight to where we are today in Palestine. Watched a discussion lunchtime over to cease fire or not to cease fire. The guy from The Economist argued the real concern for Israel now is what will Iran and it's proxy Hesbollah do if this carries on. I thought then of course about why is Iran in play. You are going to hate me. In 1952 we (UK) in cahoots with the CIA fermented a Coup which overthrew a democratically elected President in Iran (democracy being a fragile flower there at the best of times). His crime? He intended to nationalise the Iranian oil industry which was controlled by what we now know as BP. The coup happened and the son of the former Shah (king) was imposed on the Iranian people. He was a despot and ruled through fear and patronage surviving some dodgy times in the '60s and propped up by us and the US militarily. His relationship with Israel was excellent, the local secret police SAVAK, in cahoots with MOSSAD learning how to suppress dissent, of which there was quite a bit and many people disappeared or were imprisoned. You can then draw a direct line from 1952 to 1979 when it all blew up once and for all. What was left of the old democrats were all killed along with any so called western style intellectuals. I believe between 1980 and 1982 some 50,000 people were killed. Would any of that happened if we had not sought and succeed in overthrowing the Iranian government in 1952. Probably not. Now we have a fascist theocracy in Iran teetering on the verge of unleashing Hesbollah on Israel, armed to the teeth and trained militarily to a far higher degree than HAMAS. You can look the other way and say nothing to do with me guv, but don't be surprised if those that suffered the consequences of what we did don't agree, and it bites you in the ass. “It’s nothing to do with me guv” What did I do? What do you suggest we do to change it? When the ottomans conquered the caucus, they exported their women as sex slaves. The largest slave trade of all time. With the boys, they made the highest rank for a local to be a castrated transvestite prostitute or entertainer. Performing monkeys for their Islamic masters. Perhaps Europe’s attitude to the Islamic world was femented on this kind of thing. Perhaps not. The entire spectrum of Human history has been one of conquest and greed. From all sides. You think playing nice will solve that? Ot are you simply picking the other team? The strongest world powers of their age always have and always will look to use that advantage. The Spanish Armada was an example when we were on the wrong end. The Norman conquest. History is littered with it. At the end of the day I don’t doubt your version of events. Here we are. We have a good section of the world who hates us for being that dominant power. If you think those with an axe to grind will play nice if we do, you’re sorely mistaken. It’s incumbent on the people here of the present day to protect our interests and make sure WE are not eventually brought into a subservient position. Take a 5 minute look at social media to see some of the ideas those with a hatred of Britain and Europeans would do given a chance. Ok GoA I get your viewpoint and I am absolutely sure that most people would agree with you. My counter point would be is that we have to change the narrative. We cannot carry on like this, from one conflict to another, endangering the futures of the next generation(s). I am afraid to say this, said by you, is exactly the problem. "It’s incumbent on the people here of the present day to protect our interests and make sure WE are not eventually brought into a subservient position." That is the law of the jungle. For every winner there is a loser. This has to stop. Anyway, enough from me on this detail |
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Israel
Nov 3, 2023 8:05:10 GMT
Post by baggins on Nov 3, 2023 8:05:10 GMT
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Israel
Nov 7, 2023 10:06:35 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 7, 2023 10:06:35 GMT
Watching news updates from Palestine this morning is unbearable.
Feeds from GAZA from the daily life of a rescue worker, ambulance and hospital personnel.
Injured children being pulled from rubble after a targeted air strike. A baby semi conscious.
Thousands have been killed.
Someone has to say it, this retribution is as bad as the vile acts that preceded it.
How can there be peace after this.
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Israel
Nov 7, 2023 12:28:04 GMT
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Post by wrongsideoftheriver on Nov 7, 2023 12:28:04 GMT
Watching news updates from Palestine this morning is unbearable. Feeds from GAZA from the daily life of a rescue worker, ambulance and hospital personnel. Injured children being pulled from rubble after a targeted air strike. A baby semi conscious. Thousands have been killed. Someone has to say it, this retribution is as bad as the vile acts that preceded it. How can there be peace after this. With regards to your last sentence the same question could have been asked when the first attack was carried out! Not that it makes it right but they’ve brought a lot of this on themselves unfortunately. |
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Israel
Nov 7, 2023 17:22:13 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 7, 2023 17:22:13 GMT
Watching news updates from Palestine this morning is unbearable. Feeds from GAZA from the daily life of a rescue worker, ambulance and hospital personnel. Injured children being pulled from rubble after a targeted air strike. A baby semi conscious. Thousands have been killed. Someone has to say it, this retribution is as bad as the vile acts that preceded it. How can there be peace after this. With regards to your last sentence the same question could have been asked when the first attack was carried out! Not that it makes it right but they’ve brought a lot of this on themselves unfortunately. Taken in isolation yes. But that is not the starting point. |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:14:15 GMT
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Post by francegas on Nov 8, 2023 9:14:15 GMT
Watching the news this morning and it's stating that certain MPs are pushing for a vote in parliament for a ceasefire in Gaza.  ?? Am I missing something here but what difference will it make? I mean Netanyahu is hardly going to lay down arms because a government of a country over 2000 miles away voted for a ceasefire. I mean during the Iraq war if the government of say Iceland had voted for a ceasefire would Blair have taken any notice. Seems like a total waste of time to me. |
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Post by francegas on Nov 8, 2023 9:20:42 GMT
With regards to your last sentence the same question could have been asked when the first attack was carried out! Not that it makes it right but they’ve brought a lot of this on themselves unfortunately. Taken in isolation yes. But that is not the starting point. Depends how far back in history you want to go as a starting point. |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:22:30 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 8, 2023 9:22:30 GMT
Watching the news this morning and it's stating that certain MPs are pushing for a vote in parliament for a ceasefire in Gaza. ?? Am I missing something here but what difference will it make? I mean Netanyahu is hardly going to lay down arms because a government of a country over 2000 miles away voted for a ceasefire. I mean during the Iraq war if the government of say Iceland had voted for a ceasefire would Blair have taken any notice. Seems like a total waste of time to me. In isolation it is, just grandstanding. However if multiple countries do it in harmony it becomes another matter. But it only really matters if the US does it, who, by the way, are even further from Israel, geographically. |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:22:50 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 8, 2023 9:22:50 GMT
Taken in isolation yes. But that is not the starting point. Depends how far back in history you want to go as a starting point. 1948. |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:23:04 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 8, 2023 9:23:04 GMT
Watching the news this morning and it's stating that certain MPs are pushing for a vote in parliament for a ceasefire in Gaza. ?? Am I missing something here but what difference will it make? I mean Netanyahu is hardly going to lay down arms because a government of a country over 2000 miles away voted for a ceasefire. I mean during the Iraq war if the government of say Iceland had voted for a ceasefire would Blair have taken any notice. Seems like a total waste of time to me. Absolving their conscience and firing a warning shot at the Labour front bench. Isreal won't even bat an eyelid, it's purely domestic politics, as is Braverman's recent rhetoric. |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:29:22 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 8, 2023 9:29:22 GMT
Taken in isolation yes. But that is not the starting point. Depends how far back in history you want to go as a starting point. 9 November 2023. |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:30:58 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 8, 2023 9:30:58 GMT
Watching the news this morning and it's stating that certain MPs are pushing for a vote in parliament for a ceasefire in Gaza. ?? Am I missing something here but what difference will it make? I mean Netanyahu is hardly going to lay down arms because a government of a country over 2000 miles away voted for a ceasefire. I mean during the Iraq war if the government of say Iceland had voted for a ceasefire would Blair have taken any notice. Seems like a total waste of time to me. Absolving their conscience and firing a warning shot at the Labour front bench. Isreal won't even bat an eyelid, it's purely domestic politics, as is Braverman's recent rhetoric. Slightly off topic but you mentioned Braverman. She is getting more hilarious (is it funny?) With each passing week. She will be running out of things to ban soon. |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:32:50 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 8, 2023 9:32:50 GMT
Depends how far back in history you want to go as a starting point. 9 November 2023. And wipe history? Although, I have to say, that position is the only way to resolve this. Latent revenge is never going to do it. |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:33:08 GMT
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Post by francegas on Nov 8, 2023 9:33:08 GMT
Depends how far back in history you want to go as a starting point. 1948. Thought you'd say that. Do you believe Austalia is aboriginal land and New Zealand Maouri land ? |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:40:30 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 8, 2023 9:40:30 GMT
Thought you'd say that. Do you believe Austalia is aboriginal land and New Zealand Maouri land ? Yes of course. But it's too late. Having committed cultural genocide and imposed our version on the whole territories the indigenous populations have no chance. The colonising power's colours are still on the national flag and as far as I know the "King" has a role in their constitution (I think). Btw, did you see the idiot in the State opening of Parliament yesterday? It's embarrassing for a modern State, and he looked ridiculous as did his mistress (now wife) |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:50:35 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 8, 2023 9:50:35 GMT
And wipe history? Although, I have to say, that position is the only way to resolve this. Latent revenge is never going to do it. If we want to learn from history, and 1948 is a key milestone, we can't set an arbitrary date as it would fail to acknowledge why Isreal is in fear too. We also would need to understand why Jerusalem is sacred to three monotheistic religions but only controlled by one, that goes back further. We have take both side's issues seriously. Not sure the two state solution is still workable but it's going to have to be a start. Bringing in other regional players is a must, including Iran, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States. They also have responsibility here as fellow agitators, including in Syria and Yemen. Perhaps the likes of Egypt and Jordan could take a lead as they have feet in both camps, so to speak. |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:52:03 GMT
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 8, 2023 9:52:03 GMT
Thought you'd say that. Do you believe Austalia is aboriginal land and New Zealand Maouri land ? Yes of course. But it's too late. Having committed cultural genocide and imposed our version on the whole territories the indigenous populations have no chance. The colonising power's colours are still on the national flag and as far as I know the "King" has a role in their constitution (I think). Btw, did you see the idiot in the State opening of Parliament yesterday? It's embarrassing for a modern State, and he looked ridiculous as did his mistress (now wife) Boris stood down as an MP. 😃 |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 9:56:15 GMT
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Post by francegas on Nov 8, 2023 9:56:15 GMT
Thought you'd say that. Do you believe Austalia is aboriginal land and New Zealand Maouri land ? Yes of course. But it's too late. Having committed cultural genocide and imposed our version on the whole territories the indigenous populations have no chance. The colonising power's colours are still on the national flag and as far as I know the "King" has a role in their constitution (I think). Btw, did you see the idiot in the State opening of Parliament yesterday? It's embarrassing for a modern State, and he looked ridiculous as did his mistress (now wife) I find it sad that your embarrassed about a tradition that has occurred or in excess of 500 years in our history. Certainly our French friends don't find it hilarious, embarrassing or any other word you want to use, on the contrary they are interested in n our history and tell me we should be proud of our history and traditions. |
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Israel
Nov 8, 2023 10:07:09 GMT
Post by yattongas on Nov 8, 2023 10:07:09 GMT
Yes of course. But it's too late. Having committed cultural genocide and imposed our version on the whole territories the indigenous populations have no chance. The colonising power's colours are still on the national flag and as far as I know the "King" has a role in their constitution (I think). Btw, did you see the idiot in the State opening of Parliament yesterday? It's embarrassing for a modern State, and he looked ridiculous as did his mistress (now wife) I find it sad that you’re embarrassed about a tradition that has occurred or in excess of 500 years in our history. Certainly our French friends don't find it hilarious, embarrassing or any other word you want to use, on the contrary they are interested in n our history and tell me we should be proud of our history and traditions. Some bloke sat there with a crown and holding a globe (worth multiple millions) because others did it for 500 yrs and you’re proud of that ? 🙄 🇬🇧 Meanwhile we have thousands going to food banks. No wonder this country is on its knees |
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