|
|
Post by Quarters on May 16, 2024 9:07:12 GMT
To me, that is exactly the issue that needs to be stamped out. Things shouldn't be open to interpretation. One refs view of a situation being deliberate can be different to another refs interpretation of the same incident. The rules shouldn't have any scope for interpretation. For example, the offside rule is a simple yes or no, just need everyone to agree what part of the body it is measured from. I am one of the few that thinks VAR has been good for the game, it has made corrected wrong decisions more times than it has created bad decisions. How though? Are you saying that all contact between the ball and the hand should be a foul? That's the only thing not open to interpretation in hand ball - the contact. Perhaps the old offside rules should be bought back. Two players have to be between the attacker and goal when ball is played. Any anywhere across the pitch. No phases, no in keepers eyeline or not, no interfering with play, to many subjective things at moment. The ruling bodies think fans want to see more goals, while some of us admire good defence. |
|
|
|
Wolves
May 16, 2024 9:34:52 GMT
Post by warehamgas on May 16, 2024 9:34:52 GMT
How though? Are you saying that all contact between the ball and the hand should be a foul? That's the only thing not open to interpretation in hand ball - the contact. Perhaps the old offside rules should be bought back. Two players have to be between the attacker and goal when ball is played. Any anywhere across the pitch. No phases, no in keepers eyeline or not, no interfering with play, to many subjective things at moment. The ruling bodies think fans want to see more goals, while some of us admire good defence. Indeed. The Brian Clough school of thought: if he’s on the field of play of course he’s interfering with it. There is no such thing as not interfering with play. Why is he there otherwise. BC of course put it much blunter than this! UTG! |
|
|
|
Wolves
May 16, 2024 9:56:14 GMT
Post by faggotygas on May 16, 2024 9:56:14 GMT
How though? Are you saying that all contact between the ball and the hand should be a foul? That's the only thing not open to interpretation in hand ball - the contact. Perhaps the old offside rules should be bought back. Two players have to be between the attacker and goal when ball is played. Any anywhere across the pitch. No phases, no in keepers eyeline or not, no interfering with play, to many subjective things at moment. The ruling bodies think fans want to see more goals, while some of us admire good defence. I was talking about hand ball, but I don't see offside interpretation being problematic. It's pretty clear, and rarely hear arguments about it: - did the player touch the ball? - did the player try to touch the ball? - did the player get in the way of the keeper or block their view of the ball? If so, interfering. I personally wouldn't like to go back to the defensive football of the early 90s. |
|
|
|
Post by chewbacca on May 16, 2024 10:00:21 GMT
What a minefield! just think IF ! would England have won the world cup in 66 with goal line tech? we would certainly have benefited re 'hand of god, Lampard's goal etc with var BUT a toe being offside, ball being smashed against hand decisions etc are a nonsense are they not, as others have said the problem arises with operator interpretation, human error , this is no different than refs and lineman occasionally getting it wrong so on balance i would scrap as it has a very negative impact on the fans enjoyment. A big difference in football of course compared to many other sports is the attitude and conduct of the participants, professional footballers are basically cheats , are encouraged to cheat, and will use every trick in the book to gain an advantage, all of does nothing to help the officials make the right decision. A toe being offside is still offside. I hear this point of view often about VAR. I don't understand it. Why make something subjective, when we can have an absolute answer to within a very small measure of inaccuracy? The binary laws of the game are fine. No one minds goal line technology & if they automated offsides I'd be for it. The argument against the current offside set up is when does the ball leave the foot? Do we have enough frames? If we're going down to midges dick levels that needs sorting. |
|
|
|
Post by percy on May 16, 2024 10:09:13 GMT
Also slowing everything down for a penalty review is crazy.
Show 1 replay of each angle at normal speed, if inconclusive, go with on field decision.
|
|
|
|
Post by chewbacca on May 16, 2024 10:11:07 GMT
Also slowing everything down for a penalty review is crazy. Show 1 replay of each angle at normal speed, if inconclusive, go with on field decision. Just bring in reviews. |
|
|
|
Post by toddy1953 on May 16, 2024 10:39:50 GMT
I thought VAR was brought in to get rid of howlers made by the officials. For example, a player clearly a yard offside, being missed by the lino, refs missing a blatant handball or bad foul.
Unfortunately, too much scrutiny is involved- when a player is judged to be millimetres offside, it’s assuming the player playing the ball forward, is the exact moment the ball moved, this could be millimetres out too, therefore, no howler has happened & the margin of error should be with the officials, but of course the lawmakers then say to the lino, even if you think it’s offside, don’t flag just incase you’re wrong & the player goes on to score. You then have hand balls & fouls in the box, that takes 5 mins or more to conclude, one week it’s a pen, the next it’s not.
The TV companies don’t help either by having 15 different pundits giving their opinions & endlessly rerunning incidents, spending 5 mins on the actual football. I know we are quick to moan about refs at our level, but that’s been the same for donkeys years. IMO the best way forward is to have all professional officials in the top 4 leagues & do away with VAR. it might take time, but should result in better decisions & more respect from all.
|
|
|
|
Post by faggotygas on May 16, 2024 11:27:25 GMT
A toe being offside is still offside. I hear this point of view often about VAR. I don't understand it. Why make something subjective, when we can have an absolute answer to within a very small measure of inaccuracy? The binary laws of the game are fine. No one minds goal line technology & if they automated offsides I'd be for it. The argument against the current offside set up is when does the ball leave the foot? Do we have enough frames? If we're going down to midges dick levels that needs sorting. Totally agree with that - this false accuracy is frustrating. There should be a margin of error where it's ref's call, would be easy enough to work that out with maths. Like in cricket. |
|
|
|
Wolves
May 16, 2024 11:34:03 GMT
Post by eric on May 16, 2024 11:34:03 GMT
How though? Are you saying that all contact between the ball and the hand should be a foul? That's the only thing not open to interpretation in hand ball - the contact. Perhaps the old offside rules should be bought back. Two players have to be between the attacker and goal when ball is played. Any anywhere across the pitch. No phases, no in keepers eyeline or not, no interfering with play, to many subjective things at moment. The ruling bodies think fans want to see more goals, while some of us admire good defence. They need to remember why offside was introduced as a rule. It should still be about stopping an attacker having an unfair advantage over a defender by getting a “head start”. Now that we have these lines with VAR and moving towards automated decisions they should say there has to be clear daylight in order for there to have been a genuine advantage gained by the attacker. Handball is tricky and the law hasn’t changed as far as I know - it still reads as deliberate. What has changed is the referee body’s trying to make it more black and white but all they’ve done is add loads more subjective factors for the refs to consider. How far has the ball travelled, is the arm in a natural position, is the arm too far from the body etc…..just let the ref decide if, in his opinion, there was a deliberate act in the handball. They could make it very black and white by saying any contact between arm and ball is handball - then you’ll have a ridiculous situation where the likes of Arteta, Simeone, Mourinho will instruct their players to chip or blast balls at defenders arms as soon as they enter the penalty area. |
|
|
|
Wolves
May 16, 2024 11:38:55 GMT
Post by chewbacca on May 16, 2024 11:38:55 GMT
Perhaps the old offside rules should be bought back. Two players have to be between the attacker and goal when ball is played. Any anywhere across the pitch. No phases, no in keepers eyeline or not, no interfering with play, to many subjective things at moment. The ruling bodies think fans want to see more goals, while some of us admire good defence. T hey need to remember why offside was introduced as a rule. It should still be about stopping an attacker having an unfair advantage over a defender by getting a “head start”. Now that we have these lines with VAR and moving towards automated decisions they should say there has to be clear daylight in order for there to have been a genuine advantage gained by the attacker. Handball is tricky and the law hasn’t changed as far as I know - it still reads as deliberate. What has changed is the referee body’s trying to make it more black and white but all they’ve done is add loads more subjective factors for the refs to consider. How far has the ball travelled, is the arm in a natural position, is the arm too far from the body etc…..just let the ref decide if, in his opinion, there was a deliberate act in the handball. They could make it very black and white by saying any contact between arm and ball is handball - then you’ll have a ridiculous situation where the likes of Arteta, Simeone, Mourinho will instruct their players to chip or blast balls at defenders arms as soon as they enter the penalty area. To be fair it was introduced in 1863, I doubt anyone can. |
|
|
|
Post by supergas on May 16, 2024 11:54:49 GMT
Perhaps the old offside rules should be bought back. Two players have to be between the attacker and goal when ball is played. Any anywhere across the pitch. No phases, no in keepers eyeline or not, no interfering with play, to many subjective things at moment. The ruling bodies think fans want to see more goals, while some of us admire good defence. They need to remember why offside was introduced as a rule. It should still be about stopping an attacker having an unfair advantage over a defender by getting a “head start”. Now that we have these lines with VAR and moving towards automated decisions they should say there has to be clear daylight in order for there to have been a genuine advantage gained by the attacker. Handball is tricky and the law hasn’t changed as far as I know - it still reads as deliberate. What has changed is the referee body’s trying to make it more black and white but all they’ve done is add loads more subjective factors for the refs to consider. How far has the ball travelled, is the arm in a natural position, is the arm too far from the body etc…..just let the ref decide if, in his opinion, there was a deliberate act in the handball. They could make it very black and white by saying any contact between arm and ball is handball - then you’ll have a ridiculous situation where the likes of Arteta, Simeone, Mourinho will instruct their players to chip or blast balls at defenders arms as soon as they enter the penalty area. You're 100% correct on the offside rule. Just because we can 'draw' these lines doesn't mean we should. When you really break it down, a perfectly timed run may well mean a body part is 'offside' when you break it down to the frame-by-frame, but the wider context is that the attacker has timed that run perfectly. Level to the naked eye should be onside. As for the rest of VAR, it should only be for the howlers - the game-changing mistakes. It works well in the NFL, it works well in cricket as the protocols don't slow down the game (much). They don't ruin the moment for the players and the fans (mostly). VAR in football at the moment doesn't improve the game experience and (somehow) at the same time still doesn't eliminate the controversies... |
|
|
|
Post by eric on May 16, 2024 12:40:58 GMT
They need to remember why offside was introduced as a rule. It should still be about stopping an attacker having an unfair advantage over a defender by getting a “head start”. Now that we have these lines with VAR and moving towards automated decisions they should say there has to be clear daylight in order for there to have been a genuine advantage gained by the attacker. Handball is tricky and the law hasn’t changed as far as I know - it still reads as deliberate. What has changed is the referee body’s trying to make it more black and white but all they’ve done is add loads more subjective factors for the refs to consider. How far has the ball travelled, is the arm in a natural position, is the arm too far from the body etc…..just let the ref decide if, in his opinion, there was a deliberate act in the handball. They could make it very black and white by saying any contact between arm and ball is handball - then you’ll have a ridiculous situation where the likes of Arteta, Simeone, Mourinho will instruct their players to chip or blast balls at defenders arms as soon as they enter the penalty area. You're 100% correct on the offside rule. Just because we can 'draw' these lines doesn't mean we should. When you really break it down, a perfectly timed run may well mean a body part is 'offside' when you break it down to the frame-by-frame, but the wider context is that the attacker has timed that run perfectly. Level to the naked eye should be onside. As for the rest of VAR, it should only be for the howlers - the game-changing mistakes. It works well in the NFL, it works well in cricket as the protocols don't slow down the game (much). They don't ruin the moment for the players and the fans (mostly). VAR in football at the moment doesn't improve the game experience and (somehow) at the same time still doesn't eliminate the controversies... I keep hearing about the fans experience being ruined by VAR but most people I talk to the biggest thing that is turning people against football is the constant cheating and behaviour of players and managers - this in turn is making things far harder for referees. I was watching the Arsenal game at the weekend and Saka got injured sliding off the pitch, Arteta was shouting at him to get back on and then lie down to stop the game and the bloody ref allowed him to get away with it. You have players cheating by diving or throwing their legs to create contact and win penalties. Keepers going down to enable “time outs”. Players holding their faces knowing refs are scared stiff of head injuries and will stop the game. Really clamp down on these dark arts, it will please fans and help referees. Start dishing out lengthy retrospective bans for players feigning injury to get someone else in trouble or where they are proven to have dived to win pens or free kicks. The game needs cleaning up as constant turning a blind eye by the authorities is just encouraging it to get worse and worse. |
|
|
|
Post by stapletongas on May 16, 2024 13:16:09 GMT
Well actually, offside dates all the way back to the development of Association Football in the 1800's and before the split with rugby, even after the split what we know now as football did have the offside rule where the ball could not be passed forward!
Splitting hairs aside, I favour getting rid of VAR but keeping goal line tech. My rationale has always been that the game must be the same from grassroots to the top of the pyramid. I've been involved with local football managing local teams for nearly 30 years. I have never seen so much abuse to match officials and I seriously suspect it is partly due to players not getting the justice they see on TV and the frustration spills over. My view is the referees are in charge, no one else, the ref's decision is final, you accept it and get on with the game and there's no one better to set that example for everyone in the game than the top pros. If rugby players can respect the ref, so can footballers.
If that were to happen, MOTD and Sky will need to follow suit, stop the forensic analysis and also respect referees too.
We know VAR will not be abolished, EPL clubs have to have a 2/3 majority vote and teams in Europe will vote against because they will want the same in the EPL as in Europe.
So what is a happy solution?
VAR goes much too far. It is meant to weed out clear and obvious errors. So if the ref doesn't pick an incident out in real time, then I say the video assistant referee should have no more than one look at a play back, no lines, no lengthy hold ups, one play back. If it's not clear and obvious from that, then how can it be said the ref made a clear and obvious error in real time?
Finally, if they are going to keep the cameras there and the ref misses cheating, diving, trying to con the ref, let's have retrospective action to suspend the offender. I'm sick of hearing "there was contact", "he was entitled to go down", so what? You should not win free kicks and pens, you should be awarded because you were put on the floor with the force of the challenge. As for this trick of hanging a leg out, ban them! It's ruining the game.
None of this will happen though because the FA and EPL have become too powerful and EFL clubs are now just the poor relatives.
|
|
|
|
Wolves
May 17, 2024 4:29:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by gasify on May 17, 2024 4:29:56 GMT
To me, that is exactly the issue that needs to be stamped out. Things shouldn't be open to interpretation. One refs view of a situation being deliberate can be different to another refs interpretation of the same incident. The rules shouldn't have any scope for interpretation. For example, the offside rule is a simple yes or no, just need everyone to agree what part of the body it is measured from. I am one of the few that thinks VAR has been good for the game, it has made corrected wrong decisions more times than it has created bad decisions. How though? Are you saying that all contact between the ball and the hand should be a foul? That's the only thing not open to interpretation in hand ball - the contact. Actually, yes (and no). I would make the rule something like within a 1.5m radius of where the ball was struck, any ball to hand (sounds a bit rude) is not an offence, however hand to ball movement (regardless of natural or unnatural) would be. Outside that radius, it would be an offence regardless of position of hand. Only two exceptions of Self defence when the player is protecting their head or privates. That should allow technology to decide within seconds if it is a free kick or not. |
|
|
|
Wolves
May 17, 2024 4:33:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by gasify on May 17, 2024 4:33:58 GMT
A toe being offside is still offside. I hear this point of view often about VAR. I don't understand it. Why make something subjective, when we can have an absolute answer to within a very small measure of inaccuracy? The binary laws of the game are fine. No one minds goal line technology & if they automated offsides I'd be for it. The argument against the current offside set up is when does the ball leave the foot? Do we have enough frames? If we're going down to midges dick levels that needs sorting. Absolutely. Isn't it on first contact with the ball? I have seen some online videos, where they have taken that concept to the extreme. The player doing a balancing trick and then flicking the ball to a player in an 'offside' position but not actually against the rules. |
|
|
|
Wolves
May 17, 2024 4:38:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by gasify on May 17, 2024 4:38:48 GMT
I thought VAR was brought in to get rid of howlers made by the officials. For example, a player clearly a yard offside, being missed by the lino, refs missing a blatant handball or bad foul. Unfortunately, too much scrutiny is involved- when a player is judged to be millimetres offside, it’s assuming the player playing the ball forward, is the exact moment the ball moved, this could be millimetres out too, therefore, no howler has happened & the margin of error should be with the officials, but of course the lawmakers then say to the lino, even if you think it’s offside, don’t flag just incase you’re wrong & the player goes on to score. You then have hand balls & fouls in the box, that takes 5 mins or more to conclude, one week it’s a pen, the next it’s not. The TV companies don’t help either by having 15 different pundits giving their opinions & endlessly rerunning incidents, spending 5 mins on the actual football. I know we are quick to moan about refs at our level, but that’s been the same for donkeys years. IMO the best way forward is to have all professional officials in the top 4 leagues & do away with VAR. it might take time, but should result in better decisions & more respect from all. Maybe follow the Australian approach and have multiple referees on the pitch? |
|
|
|
Wolves
May 17, 2024 8:29:12 GMT
Post by supergas on May 17, 2024 8:29:12 GMT
You're 100% correct on the offside rule. Just because we can 'draw' these lines doesn't mean we should. When you really break it down, a perfectly timed run may well mean a body part is 'offside' when you break it down to the frame-by-frame, but the wider context is that the attacker has timed that run perfectly. Level to the naked eye should be onside. As for the rest of VAR, it should only be for the howlers - the game-changing mistakes. It works well in the NFL, it works well in cricket as the protocols don't slow down the game (much). They don't ruin the moment for the players and the fans (mostly). VAR in football at the moment doesn't improve the game experience and (somehow) at the same time still doesn't eliminate the controversies... I keep hearing about the fans experience being ruined by VAR but most people I talk to the biggest thing that is turning people against football is the constant cheating and behaviour of players and managers - this in turn is making things far harder for referees. I was watching the Arsenal game at the weekend and Saka got injured sliding off the pitch, Arteta was shouting at him to get back on and then lie down to stop the game and the bloody ref allowed him to get away with it. You have players cheating by diving or throwing their legs to create contact and win penalties. Keepers going down to enable “time outs”. Players holding their faces knowing refs are scared stiff of head injuries and will stop the game. Really clamp down on these dark arts, it will please fans and help referees. Start dishing out lengthy retrospective bans for players feigning injury to get someone else in trouble or where they are proven to have dived to win pens or free kicks. The game needs cleaning up as constant turning a blind eye by the authorities is just encouraging it to get worse and worse. Well post-game VAR has been around for decades and never used properly because (for whatever reason) video evidence after the game can only be used for some offences but not others. If the authorities really want to sort out the game, make most refs fully professional and send them a couple of games to watch back every day when they're not working. Any incident that was missed but would have merited punishment at the time should go to a second review and then the relevant punishment retrospectively applied. The 'dark arts' are trickier and might need actual rule changes, as well as a new body to rule on them. We know what these things are (and your examples are exactly what needs to be stopped) but how do to it fairly and consistently is the problem - and it's here where football could learn from a wide range of other sports from NFL and NBA to F1 and AFL - not every offence warrants an immediate punishment but repeated offences clearly do need action taken... |
|
|
|
Wolves
May 17, 2024 9:13:43 GMT
Post by stevek192 on May 17, 2024 9:13:43 GMT
The best thing ever would be if the rules were not interfered with at all. How many rule changes have ever improved the game? The only thing that needed to change was to bring in goalline technology which all clubs could afford.One referee two linesmen who we have to (and do in the lower divisions) will make human errors-tough!! I dont put the entire blame 0n FIFA or the FA, At the end of the day its down to the pundits who review each incident so many times- this is what has brought VAR more than anything.
|
|
|
|
Wolves
May 17, 2024 9:23:13 GMT
Post by melrosegas on May 17, 2024 9:23:13 GMT
Ironic how people blame the technology rather than the bozos using it.
VAR works much smoother in the Champions League and other major European leagues yet there is constant controversy in the Premier League. It's the classic British arrogance of thinking we can do something better than the norm, and not changing in the face of clear evidence... Why did the Premier League clubs vote against the much quicker and more accurate UEFA offside technology before the start of this season?
"Only thieves complain about the introduction of security cameras" - Jose Mourinho
|
|
