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Post by aghast on Jun 22, 2016 21:34:14 GMT
Why on this thread, and in the campaign generally, is talk by the Remainers of bad times ahead called scaremongering, and talk by the Brexiters of different bad times ahead just 'debate'? Both sides are at it because it's a low-level and dirty debate. Boris Johnson is a prime example. He isn't even a Brexiter. He just says these things he doesn't believe, to discredit Cameron because he wants to be Prime Minister. In my opinion. But Boris Johnson doesn't need to go against Cameron for the Leadership, as Cameron has already announced he will step down soon. Why would Johnson risk his political career when all he has to do is wait? This whole line of argument is just an attempt to discredit Johnson instead of engaging in the real debate. This is what is watering people off, the constant personal digs and attacks which in reality have no place in the debate! Did you watch the debate last night? The Leavers slammed the Remainers. I won't bore you with quotes, since you've probably read them, but as late as November 2015 Boris was still firmly stating he was pro-Europe. And Cameron doesn't want to stand in 2020. Four years. Boris doesn't want to wait that long. Cameron and Corbyn have made many anti-EU attacks, but now say differently. It's not about personal digs and attacks. It's about the fact that on both sides no-one can take the leaders of the campaigns at face value. Except Nigel Farage, who actually hasn't been recruited by the Brexiters. So so we just have to ignore the leaders, since they can't be trusted, and make up our own minds. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2016 4:57:43 GMT
Well, today's the day. I just hope that the result is decisive. a 51%/49% result will just leave the argument to rumble along. I want it all sorted one way or another.
My prediction........Leave will get between 60% and 70% of the vote.
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Post by beaver132 on Jun 23, 2016 6:13:07 GMT
I think we should all be disappointed with our leaders. The standard of debate has been appalling. Cameron should have gone to the EU with a set of meaningful demands and told them that in his opinion the country would vote to leave, but he might be able to persuade them to stay if he could sell them those changes. If he didn't get them, there was no way the public would vote to stay. And N sat back and not moved on his position. He could have told the public he had fought and won or lost, and if we voted to leave he would have been right, right, if we'd stayed he could have put it down to his great leadership. Now he looks like a chump.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 23, 2016 6:48:18 GMT
Is there a prize for the closest prediction?
I'll go for a 52% / 48% in favour of remaining.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2016 6:52:17 GMT
I think we should all be disappointed with our leaders. The standard of debate has been appalling. Cameron should have gone to the EU with a set of meaningful demands and told them that in his opinion the country would vote to leave, but he might be able to persuade them to stay if he could sell them those changes. If he didn't get them, there was no way the public would vote to stay. And N sat back and not moved on his position. He could have told the public he had fought and won or lost, and if we voted to leave he would have been right, right, if we'd stayed he could have put it down to his great leadership. Now he looks like a chump. You are right. Remember when Cameron told us that we would vote on the re-negotiation? Have you noticed that the negotiations haven't really been mentioned during the debate? It's because they have never been ratified by the EU, so there are concerns as to whether they ever will be ratified, even if the vote is to 'Remain'. The EU has a history of ripping up agreements when it suits them. The sight of a British PM, having to lock himself into a room with non-elected Europeans, begging/pleading/asking them for permission on how he spends British Taxpayers money on benefits within the UK did it for me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2016 6:53:36 GMT
Is there a prize for the closest prediction? I'll go for a 52% / 48% in favour of remaining. Yep, the prize is a BJ from a Lederhosen wearing Baldersgas........... For the Love of God I hope I'm wrong. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jun 23, 2016 8:42:13 GMT
Is there a prize for the closest prediction? I'll go for a 52% / 48% in favour of remaining. Yep, the prize is a BJ from a Lederhosen wearing Baldersgas........... For the Love of God I hope I'm wrong. I predict one side will win. Think I have all bases covered there... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2016 8:48:39 GMT
Yep, the prize is a BJ from a Lederhosen wearing Baldersgas........... For the Love of God I hope I'm wrong. I predict one side will win. Think I have all bases covered there... I declare you the winner. I'll PM Balders your phone number. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2016 8:55:22 GMT
Seriously though, there should have been a majority built in to the result. For example, it is possible for one side to 'win' by having more votes. What if the result is very very close, with the difference being something like 20,000 votes overall? That would not be a satisfactory result for either side. A clear majority should have been needed for a positive result.
The turnout should have been set at something like 50%. Any less and the vote is void.
Any majority should have been set at, say, 55% v 45% (either way). Any narrower the result should be void.
What happens in the event of a void vote? I haven't got a scooby, but then again, that's not my job.
By not setting any of these targets, the government have set themselves up for possibly a long, drawn out argument.
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Post by beaver132 on Jun 23, 2016 9:21:16 GMT
I reckon a 70% turnout, leave winning by 52 -48. Not necessarily the way I will vote, but genuinely not sure myself yet. The debate on C4 yesterday was not too bad, but like these things always are there was no follow up to the questions. I'd have liked to known;
What will you do with the EU citizens already here?
The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU. It's something else. How will that be reflected?
Why no undertaking to protect workers rights?
What will happen to all the brits currently living abroad?
Yvette what's her name said they'd like to boost border controls. This from any politician is gross hypocrisy, it's been their actions that have reduced the number of officers, not the EU. They merged HMCE with the IR, they created UKBF. It's their mess.
What if, on either side, it all goes wrong?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2016 9:56:38 GMT
What will you do with the EU citizens already here? - Nothing. In the same way that nothing will happens to Brits living in Europe. Why should it change?
The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU. It's something else. How will that be reflected? - The referendum is about being in the EU. Cameron has already promised to get out of the ECHR and introduce a British Bill of Rights. Another promise he has failed to keep.
Why no undertaking to protect workers rights? The UK have always been amongst the leaders of the world regarding Workers Rights. Why would that change?
What will happen to all the brits currently living abroad? As above.
Yvette what's her name said they'd like to boost border controls. This from any politician is gross hypocrisy, it's been their actions that have reduced the number of officers, not the EU. They merged HMCE with the IR, they created UKBF. It's their mess. - Yep, totally agree. Plus, a politician with balls is needed. Anyone caught trying to get into the UK illegally should be sent back from where they came straight away. Don't let them argue their case in a British Court.
What if, on either side, it all goes wrong? - Improvise, adapt and carry on.
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Post by inee on Jun 23, 2016 18:30:24 GMT
Seriously though, there should have been a majority built in to the result. For example, it is possible for one side to 'win' by having more votes. What if the result is very very close, with the difference being something like 20,000 votes overall? That would not be a satisfactory result for either side. A clear majority should have been needed for a positive result. The turnout should have been set at something like 50%. Any less and the vote is void. Any majority should have been set at, say, 55% v 45% (either way). Any narrower the result should be void. What happens in the event of a void vote? I haven't got a scooby, but then again, that's not my job. By not setting any of these targets, the government have set themselves up for possibly a long, drawn out argument. As it's a straightforward vote i'm sure it's first past the post, void vote will probably mean thats it game over. one part of your question is very simple to answer . If the remainers win by 1 vote then ,that will be it all done . If the leavers win by one vote, then the EU will declare the vote null and void , cameron will trot out a newly drafted eu law entitled ,Borris and all the monkey badger dead dogs cock leave voters lost. which will declare the vote null and void  . My bladder tells i the result will be fixed in favour of remain , but if we do manage so say Oi froggies fook off with napoleon then during the alleged years it will take to leave i suspect another vote will be held. |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Jun 23, 2016 19:03:10 GMT
What will you do with the EU citizens already here? - Nothing. In the same way that nothing will happens to Brits living in Europe. Why should it change? The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU. It's something else. How will that be reflected? - The referendum is about being in the EU. Cameron has already promised to get out of the ECHR and introduce a British Bill of Rights. Another promise he has failed to keep. Why no undertaking to protect workers rights? The UK have always been amongst the leaders of the world regarding Workers Rights. Why would that change? What will happen to all the brits currently living abroad? As above. Yvette what's her name said they'd like to boost border controls. This from any politician is gross hypocrisy, it's been their actions that have reduced the number of officers, not the EU. They merged HMCE with the IR, they created UKBF. It's their mess. - Yep, totally agree. Plus, a politician with balls is needed. Anyone caught trying to get into the UK illegally should be sent back from where they came straight away. Don't let them argue their case in a British Court. What if, on either side, it all goes wrong? - Improvise, adapt and carry on. Yvette Cooper has got balls, thankfully he is at home doing the washing up. |
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Post by jaggas on Jun 23, 2016 20:41:58 GMT
What do the bookies know that no one else does?
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Post by aghast on Jun 23, 2016 21:17:19 GMT
Ladbrokes are suggesting 88% chance of Remain winning. No idea where they get that figure from, but it's on their website. I'd love to stay up all night to watch, but I have to be up,early for work.
Some interesting debate on here tomorrow for sure.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jun 24, 2016 5:09:48 GMT
Lolz
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Post by Rod1883 on Jun 24, 2016 5:55:11 GMT
Well, well, well.
So now we have the opportunity to shape our own future.
I am also sure that all those doom mongers will also be working as hard as possible to make it work - if only to preserve their own wealth.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 5:55:32 GMT
Blimey. There are some interesting results that's for sure.
Lot's of 'stuff' going on. The media are full of news regarding the drop in the value of the Pound. However, they didn't really notice that the value of the Pound actually went up a lot in the week before the vote, so a large part of the 'drop' is actually just the value rebalancing. Yes, it has gone down, but that is just the Currency Traders making an awful lot of money.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 6:15:37 GMT
Leave won 51.9% of the total vote to Remain's 48.1%.
Is that a satisfactory gap?
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jun 24, 2016 6:47:46 GMT
I think that once word got out that there were only pencils at the polling booths the Leave group started taking pens in with them. Thats why the early signs were for a Remain win but it swung to the Exit come the finish.
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