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Post by Henbury Gas on Apr 21, 2018 5:53:10 GMT
We can argue until we are blue (and white)in the face about whether it is normal for a controlling shareholder owning 92% of the equity in a company to take a legal charge over that company's asset but if fans want to believe it is normal then nothing will change their minds. What may be interesting is to take a look back to the accounts for the year ended 30th June 2009 when Rovers had just finished 11th in League 1 with 63 points. In his Chairman's report Nick Higgs said the loss of £1,727 368 on turnover of £4 007 389 was unsustainable and the club still relied on the support of it's directors through both loans and equity. The loans from the directors increased by £490 127 during the year and new shares were issued to raise £869 945 including £54 000 coming from the share scheme. Nick said he was hoping to soon give positive news on the stadium regeneration plan and also commented on the first class training facilities Rovers had at South Bristol Sports Centre. He said Darren Patterson had been appointed to bridge the gap between the centre of excellence and first team squad with Ben Swallow,Charlie Reece and Charlie Clough being a testament to the progress being made in that direction. The secured borrowings were a bank mortgage of £944 902, a bank overdraft of £1,348 807 and a brewery loan of £281 250. The unsecured interest free directors loans amounted to £939 891 making total debt of £3,514 850. So in comparison today: Our league position is about the same Our trading revenue (turnover) is about 50% higher Our trading losses are about 20% higher The losses are covered by interest bearing loans rather than a mix of interest free loans and equity The debt has increased from £3.5 million to about £12 million We are still awaiting news on stadium regeneration (redevelopment) Young players are still transitioning from the youth set up (development squad) to the first team Fans who ask questions about the progress supposedly being made are still told they will have to eat humble pie at some time in the future Excellent post swissgas and puts forward some really interesting points. One thing I would say though to counter your final point slightly, is that you're comparing two timeframes that are considerably different, and you are taking a snapshot to compare the old regime to this one in regards progress made, but it's a snapshot of perhaps the loftiest peak that regime saw since the 90s, and doesn't take into account the disasters that were just around the corner. Timeframe wise, it may have been less than 10 years ago, but the landscape in football has changed massively these last few years, and I would imagine we're not the only ones by a long shot that are running up higher trading losses these days. Another difference is that we have better building blocks in place now to make genuine tangible progress, as the owners have bought the land for the training course, rather than the South Bristol training centre which was never owned. Granted, progress on that has been painfully slow though! Hard to really compare like for like, as too many external variables are not consistent, but interestingly to see regardless. What also can distort the £12m debt is that approx £8m was to pay the old guard debt & purchase of the club
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Post by gregsy on Apr 21, 2018 6:02:56 GMT
Excellent post swissgas and puts forward some really interesting points. One thing I would say though to counter your final point slightly, is that you're comparing two timeframes that are considerably different, and you are taking a snapshot to compare the old regime to this one in regards progress made, but it's a snapshot of perhaps the loftiest peak that regime saw since the 90s, and doesn't take into account the disasters that were just around the corner. Timeframe wise, it may have been less than 10 years ago, but the landscape in football has changed massively these last few years, and I would imagine we're not the only ones by a long shot that are running up higher trading losses these days. Another difference is that we have better building blocks in place now to make genuine tangible progress, as the owners have bought the land for the training course, rather than the South Bristol training centre which was never owned. Granted, progress on that has been painfully slow though! Hard to really compare like for like, as too many external variables are not consistent, but interestingly to see regardless. What also can distort the £12m debt is that approx £8m was to pay the old guard debt & purchase of the club This i what I was thinking, when the takeover happened the debts were far greater than 3.5m because of the loans.... I'm not itk, just the impression I got from reading on here....
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Post by socrates on Apr 21, 2018 8:27:30 GMT
WAQ bought a sinking ship ,we might have just won promotion but that had only papered over the cracks we were still sinking.
I firmly believe our ship is now much more stable than it ever was under the last regime.
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Marshy
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Post by Marshy on Apr 21, 2018 8:29:32 GMT
WAQ bought a sinking ship ,we might have just won promotion but that had only papered over the cracks we were still sinking. I firmly believe our ship is now much more stable than it ever was under the last regime. Obviously a pirate ship.
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Post by socrates on Apr 21, 2018 8:43:28 GMT
WAQ bought a sinking ship ,we might have just won promotion but that had only papered over the cracks we were still sinking. I firmly believe our ship is now much more stable than it ever was under the last regime. Obviously a pirate ship. UTG
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 21, 2018 10:29:42 GMT
Excellent post swissgas and puts forward some really interesting points. One thing I would say though to counter your final point slightly, is that you're comparing two timeframes that are considerably different, and you are taking a snapshot to compare the old regime to this one in regards progress made, but it's a snapshot of perhaps the loftiest peak that regime saw since the 90s, and doesn't take into account the disasters that were just around the corner. Timeframe wise, it may have been less than 10 years ago, but the landscape in football has changed massively these last few years, and I would imagine we're not the only ones by a long shot that are running up higher trading losses these days. Another difference is that we have better building blocks in place now to make genuine tangible progress, as the owners have bought the land for the training course, rather than the South Bristol training centre which was never owned. Granted, progress on that has been painfully slow though! Hard to really compare like for like, as too many external variables are not consistent, but interestingly to see regardless. What also can distort the £12m debt is that approx £8m was to pay the old guard debt & purchase of the club Thought they paid £6m according to Wael? Although you have to add to that the money DS had to write off chasing the UWE dream, some was spent post NH but I assume a large amount by NH, plus NH was already running the club on the basis that £1m annual losses were the norm, so in reality the debts are only around £2m or so more than they would have been under NH ownership, assuming we hadn't gone bust by now! WAQ bought a sinking ship ,we might have just won promotion but that had only papered over the cracks we were still sinking. I firmly believe our ship is now much more stable than it ever was under the last regime. I guess that depends on whether the ALQ's are really here for the long term, what happens if they decide this summer or next that they want to move on to another project, we're now really at the mercy of foreign owners who could just disappear back home never to be seen in Bristol again, unlike NH & BB who would still have to face people in Bristol if it all went wrong under their ownership.
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Post by peterparker on Apr 21, 2018 10:46:04 GMT
What also can distort the £12m debt is that approx £8m was to pay the old guard debt & purchase of the club Thought they paid £6m according to Wael? Although you have to add to that the money DS had to write off chasing the UWE dream, some was spent post NH but I assume a large amount by NH, plus NH was already running the club on the basis that £1m annual losses were the norm, so in reality the debts are only around £2m or so more than they would have been under NH ownership, assuming we hadn't gone bust by now! WAQ bought a sinking ship ,we might have just won promotion but that had only papered over the cracks we were still sinking. I firmly believe our ship is now much more stable than it ever was under the last regime. I guess that depends on whether the ALQ's are really here for the long term, what happens if they decide this summer or next that they want to move on to another project, we're now really at the mercy of foreign owners who could just disappear back home never to be seen in Bristol again, unlike NH & BB who would still have to face people in Bristol if it all went wrong under their ownership. NH likes Italy doesnt he?
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Post by inee on Apr 21, 2018 10:51:42 GMT
Love the humble pie's tin soldier ,for a long while i though it was nazareth who did it Small faces did the original version love the original as well ,but when i heard the humble pie version i genuinely thought it was nazareth ,only found out it was by humble pie in about 2003 , To me the song was so much better twas as if Marriott found the correct band members to make the song complete
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Post by inee on Apr 21, 2018 10:57:44 GMT
Love the humble pie's tin soldier ,for a long while i though it was nazareth who did it Love that track. Frampton has a very clear guitar sound that you can spot from a mile away. And Marriott's vocals are strong as they always were. On the subject of Nazareth, did you ever see them live? Another great live act, from these shores. nope discovered nazareth later on in the mid 90's ,mccafferty had a bloody good voice ,songs sounded effortless ,
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Post by tbonegas on Apr 21, 2018 11:19:26 GMT
Love that track. Frampton has a very clear guitar sound that you can spot from a mile away. And Marriott's vocals are strong as they always were. On the subject of Nazareth, did you ever see them live? Another great live act, from these shores. nope discovered nazareth later on in the mid 90's ,mccafferty had a bloody good voice ,songs sounded effortless , Had a chat with Dan, before they went on stage at the Locarno. Never understood a bloody word he said. As you say he had a really good voice. Wonder what he sounds like now?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 12:09:52 GMT
So who said that they were 99.9% confident that UWE would be built. Nick Higgs is the obvious answer. I remember the dot the i’s and cross the t’s interview. Fairly certain that was Watola but both had history of not telling the truth.
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Post by knowall on Apr 21, 2018 14:02:52 GMT
We can argue until we are blue (and white)in the face about whether it is normal for a controlling shareholder owning 92% of the equity in a company to take a legal charge over that company's asset but if fans want to believe it is normal then nothing will change their minds. What may be interesting is to take a look back to the accounts for the year ended 30th June 2009 when Rovers had just finished 11th in League 1 with 63 points. In his Chairman's report Nick Higgs said the loss of £1,727 368 on turnover of £4 007 389 was unsustainable and the club still relied on the support of it's directors through both loans and equity. The loans from the directors increased by £490 127 during the year and new shares were issued to raise £869 945 including £54 000 coming from the share scheme. Nick said he was hoping to soon give positive news on the stadium regeneration plan and also commented on the first class training facilities Rovers had at South Bristol Sports Centre. He said Darren Patterson had been appointed to bridge the gap between the centre of excellence and first team squad with Ben Swallow,Charlie Reece and Charlie Clough being a testament to the progress being made in that direction. The secured borrowings were a bank mortgage of £944 902, a bank overdraft of £1,348 807 and a brewery loan of £281 250. The unsecured interest free directors loans amounted to £939 891 making total debt of £3,514 850. So in comparison today: Our league position is about the same Our trading revenue (turnover) is about 50% higher Our trading losses are about 20% higher The losses are covered by interest bearing loans rather than a mix of interest free loans and equity The debt has increased from £3.5 million to about £12 million We are still awaiting news on stadium regeneration (redevelopment) Young players are still transitioning from the youth set up (development squad) to the first team Fans who ask questions about the progress supposedly being made are still told they will have to eat humble pie at some time in the future I agree it is not normal for a major shareholder to have a charge on the main asset, but it is not unknown. In this instance, I am sure swissgas has a good idea why it exists? Particularly considering the major shareholder is itself owned by Bankers. As for the comparison, the accounts for June 2009 with the accounts for June 2016 are probably more relevant and demonstrate the direction of travel before the takeover and whether since the takeover the rate of travel has reduced?
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Post by socrates on Apr 21, 2018 15:23:58 GMT
Nick Higgs is the obvious answer. I remember the dot the i’s and cross the t’s interview. Fairly certain that was Watola but both had history of not telling the truth. Higgs looked me in the eye and said we will 100% build the UWE stadium. This was after Sainsbury’s had pulled out not long before he sold. The man was deluded towards the end.
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Post by poorblue on Apr 22, 2018 17:45:33 GMT
We can argue until we are blue (and white)in the face about whether it is normal for a controlling shareholder owning 92% of the equity in a company to take a legal charge over that company's asset but if fans want to believe it is normal then nothing will change their minds. What may be interesting is to take a look back to the accounts for the year ended 30th June 2009 when Rovers had just finished 11th in League 1 with 63 points. In his Chairman's report Nick Higgs said the loss of £1,727 368 on turnover of £4 007 389 was unsustainable and the club still relied on the support of it's directors through both loans and equity. The loans from the directors increased by £490 127 during the year and new shares were issued to raise £869 945 including £54 000 coming from the share scheme. Nick said he was hoping to soon give positive news on the stadium regeneration plan and also commented on the first class training facilities Rovers had at South Bristol Sports Centre. He said Darren Patterson had been appointed to bridge the gap between the centre of excellence and first team squad with Ben Swallow,Charlie Reece and Charlie Clough being a testament to the progress being made in that direction. The secured borrowings were a bank mortgage of £944 902, a bank overdraft of £1,348 807 and a brewery loan of £281 250. The unsecured interest free directors loans amounted to £939 891 making total debt of £3,514 850. So in comparison today: Our league position is about the same Our trading revenue (turnover) is about 50% higher Our trading losses are about 20% higher The losses are covered by interest bearing loans rather than a mix of interest free loans and equity The debt has increased from £3.5 million to about £12 million We are still awaiting news on stadium regeneration (redevelopment) Young players are still transitioning from the youth set up (development squad) to the first team Fans who ask questions about the progress supposedly being made are still told they will have to eat humble pie at some time in the future Excellent post swissgas and puts forward some really interesting points. One thing I would say though to counter your final point slightly, is that you're comparing two timeframes that are considerably different, and you are taking a snapshot to compare the old regime to this one in regards progress made, but it's a snapshot of perhaps the loftiest peak that regime saw since the 90s, and doesn't take into account the disasters that were just around the corner. Timeframe wise, it may have been less than 10 years ago, but the landscape in football has changed massively these last few years, and I would imagine we're not the only ones by a long shot that are running up higher trading losses these days. Another difference is that we have better building blocks in place now to make genuine tangible progress, as the owners have bought the land for the training ground, rather than the South Bristol training centre which was never owned. Granted, progress on that has been painfully slow though! Hard to really compare like for like, as too many external variables are not consistent, but interestingly to see regardless. The forum is full of opinions some optimistic others full of gloom. A large slice of opinions relate to the lack of a decent board. It appears to me that mostly these opinions are cherry picking certain things that irk the responder at certain times when they descend into gloom. So here goes my turn to cherry pick. Eastville Era The pre war and early post war board sold the club down the river by selling Eastville stadium leaving Rovers homeless. Tried to blame others by citing it was Hitlers fault. What did they ever achieve whilst we were homeless oh yes we just missed out on promotion to the English top tier whilst having an England centre forward playing for us and the best team in our history. That's the least you would expect without having to maintain a stadium. I'm a gashead because I saw Bradford score the "offside" goal at trashton to win 3 - 4 lucky sods The training ground was the excellent Eastville Park when dry or Weston Sands when wet. The Dunfords Era What did they ever do for Rovers. Didn't put the fire out that burnt down the lovely architectural South Stand and thus lost all the historic records. Forced the club into exile to the pits of Twerton Park 14 miles away from Bristol. Turnt the Eastville 5000 faithful into the Twerton 3000 faithful. Refused to sign players so the player manger has to buy a player from his own pocket. What sort of manger was this? A clapped out old ex England captain who was a failed Exeter manager. What did they achieve in this period not a lot except the clubs first ever trip to Wembley in a national final and promotion to the 2nd tier of English football, the first time in decades. It gets worst they then forced us to return to Bristol to play on an unplayable pitch used for Ruby Union. You couldn't make it up could you? It gets worst still, they put the club into a massive debt by agreeing to purchase a 50% share of this dilapidated rugby ground and paid £2.5m for it. Yet more gloom within a few years the club were left holding the baby and all the liabilities and cost of this dilapidated stadium when the rugby club went bust. They did buy land at Hambrook for a new stadium but planning turned it down on a site almost opposite where UWE was granted. Just 20 years too early then, plonkers tried to rush it, should have waited and saved up? Achieved nothing much on the pitch except a few lucky finals in the same season and the only club ever to play at the Millenium and Wembley in the same season. Did use a private training ground at a chocolate factory when in Bath then later their own at Brislington for a while. The Higgs Era What did he ever achieve but the disaster of relegation out of the Football League for the first time ever. Not good enough that he then took 2 seasons to get consecutive promotions back to League 1 with hopeless free transfer players. Put the club back into training in rented pitches. Also did get planning consent for 2 new stadiums but both failed to progress because he picked awful partners to develop them. He blamed a world wide financial recession ( where was that? ) for the first and the second was due to The Green Party court case delaying the start giving the partner a get out clause as their trading scenario had changed. ( anyone getting their groceries from there now. Al Qadi Era What have they achieved as they had had plenty of time in the last 18 months to have bought a training and developed it and build a new 30000 all seated stadium. After all Higgs took 5 years for UWE just to get planning consent. If you were condescending I suppose you could say there is now the biggest first team squad in years but that is mainly Higgs free transfers that could only achieve 2 promotions in 2 years and a full reserve U23 squad now producing first team players. Now the highly paid Yates has departed his wages are now spread between a full medical team of about 8 people never been seen at the club before but probably are free transfers and volunteers in training? I wasn't there in the beginning, I wont be there at the end but will be there until my end. But Wow I have enjoyed being there in the middle. I have seen many games at Eastville including 8000 at a reserve game, I was one of the 3000 at Twerton and also one of the 5000 ( now 9000 ) on the return to The Mem. I've stood in the rain and mud and paddled in the water at Twerton in the dark gents without a light bulb and generally enjoyed every moment. Football is an emotional entertainment, I get emotional about the football but not about the stadiums. If fans who complain about the state of the Mem had fought their way through the brambles and weeds and stood on the away end of roofless Alfreton on a wet Tuesday night and saw the performance of the team, it wasn't the stadium that I got emotional about but the team. Blue eyes, blue blood and a blue team, life can't get much better except for a new stadium, real ale, under soil heating and up at least a division. UTG
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Post by Topper Gas on Apr 22, 2018 19:31:48 GMT
I appreciate a lot of what you've posted is tongue in cheek but how on earth did you manage to give NH credit for two promotions, as there's no way we would have got the last promotion without the ALQ "feel good" factor. Plus you've totally ignored the elephant in the room, the fact our debts almost exceed our assets.
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Post by poorblue on Apr 22, 2018 21:44:27 GMT
I appreciate a lot of what you've posted is tongue in cheek but how on earth did you manage to give NH credit for two promotions, as there's no way we would have got the last promotion without the ALQ "feel good" factor. Plus you've totally ignored the elephant in the room, the fact our debts almost exceed our assets. Correct me if I am not accurate but accepting the "feel Good" factor promotion from Conference to League 2 was with Higgs as Chairman. Promotion from League 2 to League 1 was under Higgs from the start of the season til February when Wael Al Qadi took over AFTER the transfer window had closed. The team who gained promotion where almost exclusively the players from the previous League 2 season as Clarke had carried out his promise to offer every player a contract. From memory every player except the centre half (whose name escapes me) signed and played a part in the promotion.
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Post by Wimborne Gas on Apr 22, 2018 22:26:54 GMT
I appreciate a lot of what you've posted is tongue in cheek but how on earth did you manage to give NH credit for two promotions, as there's no way we would have got the last promotion without the ALQ "feel good" factor. Plus you've totally ignored the elephant in the room, the fact our debts almost exceed our assets. Correct me if I am not accurate but accepting the "feel Good" factor promotion from Conference to League 2 was with Higgs as Chairman. Promotion from League 2 to League 1 was under Higgs from the start of the season til February when Wael Al Qadi took over AFTER the transfer window had closed. The team who gained promotion where almost exclusively the players from the previous League 2 season as Clarke had carried out his promise to offer every player a contract. From memory every player except the centre half (whose name escapes me) signed and played a part in the promotion. Wow, Neal Trotman. Decent defender in the conference and played a big part for us that season. Got injured and never reported for pre-season. Where is he now?
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Post by yattongas on Apr 22, 2018 22:31:46 GMT
We the 3,000 that kept this club afloat at Twerton should be lorded by you lesser mortals.... you should hold us in the highest esteem. In fact the mighty ‘3k’ should have a statue erected at the new stadium ( stop Laughing) . You lot owe us . Utg .
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pirate
Forum Legend
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Post by pirate on Apr 22, 2018 23:32:12 GMT
Correct me if I am not accurate but accepting the "feel Good" factor promotion from Conference to League 2 was with Higgs as Chairman. Promotion from League 2 to League 1 was under Higgs from the start of the season til February when Wael Al Qadi took over AFTER the transfer window had closed. The team who gained promotion where almost exclusively the players from the previous League 2 season as Clarke had carried out his promise to offer every player a contract. From memory every player except the centre half (whose name escapes me) signed and played a part in the promotion. Wow, Neal Trotman. Decent defender in the conference and played a big part for us that season. Got injured and never reported for pre-season. Where is he now? I think we were his last club and he retired at 28 due to those injury problems.
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Post by philbemmygas on Apr 23, 2018 11:11:38 GMT
Excellent post swissgas and puts forward some really interesting points. One thing I would say though to counter your final point slightly, is that you're comparing two timeframes that are considerably different, and you are taking a snapshot to compare the old regime to this one in regards progress made, but it's a snapshot of perhaps the loftiest peak that regime saw since the 90s, and doesn't take into account the disasters that were just around the corner. Timeframe wise, it may have been less than 10 years ago, but the landscape in football has changed massively these last few years, and I would imagine we're not the only ones by a long shot that are running up higher trading losses these days. Another difference is that we have better building blocks in place now to make genuine tangible progress, as the owners have bought the land for the training ground, rather than the South Bristol training centre which was never owned. Granted, progress on that has been painfully slow though! Hard to really compare like for like, as too many external variables are not consistent, but interestingly to see regardless. The forum is full of opinions some optimistic others full of gloom. A large slice of opinions relate to the lack of a decent board. It appears to me that mostly these opinions are cherry picking certain things that irk the responder at certain times when they descend into gloom. So here goes my turn to cherry pick. Eastville Era The pre war and early post war board sold the club down the river by selling Eastville stadium leaving Rovers homeless. Tried to blame others by citing it was Hitlers fault. What did they ever achieve whilst we were homeless oh yes we just missed out on promotion to the English top tier whilst having an England centre forward playing for us and the best team in our history. That's the least you would expect without having to maintain a stadium. I'm a gashead because I saw Bradford score the "offside" goal at trashton to win 3 - 4 lucky sods The training ground was the excellent Eastville Park when dry or Weston Sands when wet. The Dunfords Era What did they ever do for Rovers. Didn't put the fire out that burnt down the lovely architectural South Stand and thus lost all the historic records. Forced the club into exile to the pits of Twerton Park 14 miles away from Bristol. Turnt the Eastville 5000 faithful into the Twerton 3000 faithful. Refused to sign players so the player manger has to buy a player from his own pocket. What sort of manger was this? A clapped out old ex England captain who was a failed Exeter manager. What did they achieve in this period not a lot except the clubs first ever trip to Wembley in a national final and promotion to the 2nd tier of English football, the first time in decades. It gets worst they then forced us to return to Bristol to play on an unplayable pitch used for Ruby Union. You couldn't make it up could you? It gets worst still, they put the club into a massive debt by agreeing to purchase a 50% share of this dilapidated rugby ground and paid £2.5m for it. Yet more gloom within a few years the club were left holding the baby and all the liabilities and cost of this dilapidated stadium when the rugby club went bust. They did buy land at Hambrook for a new stadium but planning turned it down on a site almost opposite where UWE was granted. Just 20 years too early then, plonkers tried to rush it, should have waited and saved up? Achieved nothing much on the pitch except a few lucky finals in the same season and the only club ever to play at the Millenium and Wembley in the same season. Did use a private training ground at a chocolate factory when in Bath then later their own at Brislington for a while. The Higgs Era What did he ever achieve but the disaster of relegation out of the Football League for the first time ever. Not good enough that he then took 2 seasons to get consecutive promotions back to League 1 with hopeless free transfer players. Put the club back into training in rented pitches. Also did get planning consent for 2 new stadiums but both failed to progress because he picked awful partners to develop them. He blamed a world wide financial recession ( where was that? ) for the first and the second was due to The Green Party court case delaying the start giving the partner a get out clause as their trading scenario had changed. ( anyone getting their groceries from there now. Al Qadi Era What have they achieved as they had had plenty of time in the last 18 months to have bought a training and developed it and build a new 30000 all seated stadium. After all Higgs took 5 years for UWE just to get planning consent. If you were condescending I suppose you could say there is now the biggest first team squad in years but that is mainly Higgs free transfers that could only achieve 2 promotions in 2 years and a full reserve U23 squad now producing first team players. Now the highly paid Yates has departed his wages are now spread between a full medical team of about 8 people never been seen at the club before but probably are free transfers and volunteers in training? I wasn't there in the beginning, I wont be there at the end but will be there until my end. But Wow I have enjoyed being there in the middle. I have seen many games at Eastville including 8000 at a reserve game, I was one of the 3000 at Twerton and also one of the 5000 ( now 9000 ) on the return to The Mem. I've stood in the rain and mud and paddled in the water at Twerton in the dark gents without a light bulb and generally enjoyed every moment. Football is an emotional entertainment, I get emotional about the football but not about the stadiums. If fans who complain about the state of the Mem had fought their way through the brambles and weeds and stood on the away end of roofless Alfreton on a wet Tuesday night and saw the performance of the team, it wasn't the stadium that I got emotional about but the team. Blue eyes, blue blood and a blue team, life can't get much better except for a new stadium, real ale, under soil heating and up at least a division. UTG Two clubs played domestic finals at the Millennium and Wemberley that season, Chelski and the Mighty Gas
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