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Post by trevorgas on May 3, 2019 8:33:55 GMT
They should honour their manifesto pledge under which they were elected to respect the result of the referendum and deliver Brexit, otherwise they will join the ranks of all those politicians who just lie and take the electorate for granted. But their membership is now telling them otherwise. That's their rock and hard place (much like the Tories in some respects) balancing the views of their membership with that of the wider electorate
THe only parties going to gain from this are the likes of The Lib Dems, BREXIT Party and possibly Change with the SNP maintaing their relative strength.
Labour aren't goin to win either way so they must choose a path and walk it and have to rebuild themselves
I don't disagree that's what their membership may be saying now however, there is a hell of a difference in numbers of members and actual labour voters it only takes a small percentage of members to voters to dictate policy as we have already seen. If we are going to be in the situation that Manifestos are irrelevant then god help us, that's what I based my decision on not some whim of the membership who have vested interests and not elected by anyone.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 8:35:34 GMT
They should honour their manifesto pledge under which they were elected to respect the result of the referendum and deliver Brexit, otherwise they will join the ranks of all those politicians who just lie and take the electorate for granted. But their membership is now telling them otherwise. That's their rock and hard place (much like the Tories in some respects) balancing the views of their membership with that of the wider electorate
THe only parties going to gain from this are the likes of The Lib Dems, BREXIT Party and possibly Change with the SNP maintaing their relative strength.
Labour aren't goin to win either way so they must choose a path and walk it and have to rebuild themselves
Is it a case of Labour and its member's pledging to honour a referendum result if Remain won but then once the result went the other way decided this democracy lark isn't all it's cracked up to be?
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Post by peterparker on May 3, 2019 8:46:03 GMT
But their membership is now telling them otherwise. That's their rock and hard place (much like the Tories in some respects) balancing the views of their membership with that of the wider electorate
THe only parties going to gain from this are the likes of The Lib Dems, BREXIT Party and possibly Change with the SNP maintaing their relative strength.
Labour aren't goin to win either way so they must choose a path and walk it and have to rebuild themselves
I don't disagree that's what their membership may be saying now however, there is a hell of a difference in numbers of members and actual labour voters it only takes a small percentage of members to voters to dictate policy as we have already seen. If we are going to be in the situation that Manifestos are irrelevant then god help us, that's what I based my decision on not some whim of the membership who have vested interests and not elected by anyone. I don't entirely disagree
I am struggling with the manifesto argument though. Plenty of maifesto pledges have been dropped in the past, normally down to palimentary numbers and whether they have a chance of getting something through the commons. THat's kind of how parlimentary democracy works and it's playing out now because of Theresa May's rash GE reducing her numbers.
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Post by trevorgas on May 3, 2019 9:06:04 GMT
I don't disagree that's what their membership may be saying now however, there is a hell of a difference in numbers of members and actual labour voters it only takes a small percentage of members to voters to dictate policy as we have already seen. If we are going to be in the situation that Manifestos are irrelevant then god help us, that's what I based my decision on not some whim of the membership who have vested interests and not elected by anyone. I don't entirely disagree
I am struggling with the manifesto argument though. Plenty of maifesto pledges have been dropped in the past, normally down to palimentary numbers and whether they have a chance of getting something through the commons. THat's kind of how parlimentary democracy works and it's playing out now because of Theresa May's rash GE reducing her numbers.
We're sort of in agreement and you are right many pledges get dropped,I see the Manifestos as a clear direction of travel from a Social,Fiscal and Political standpoint what I would expect is some compromise to deliver the majority of the manifesto but not not on the key objectives and you don't get more key than leaving the EU. I accept May shot herself in the foot but all MPsorts elected with a promise to deliver leave should honour that promise.
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Post by South Stand Ultra on May 3, 2019 14:39:33 GMT
The Tories sent this leaflet out to every household in the UK in 2016.
The remainers keep going on about lies told by the leave campaign...
The biggest lie of them all!!! "THE GOVERNMENT WILL IMPLEMENT WHAT YOU DECIDE."
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 15:13:56 GMT
I don't disagree that's what their membership may be saying now however, there is a hell of a difference in numbers of members and actual labour voters it only takes a small percentage of members to voters to dictate policy as we have already seen. If we are going to be in the situation that Manifestos are irrelevant then god help us, that's what I based my decision on not some whim of the membership who have vested interests and not elected by anyone. I don't entirely disagree
I am struggling with the manifesto argument though. Plenty of maifesto pledges have been dropped in the past, normally down to palimentary numbers and whether they have a chance of getting something through the commons. THat's kind of how parlimentary democracy works and it's playing out now because of Theresa May's rash GE reducing her numbers.
The problem with both Tory and Labour manifesto's is not that they are dropping promises made to garner votes, but in reality they are advocating the exact opposite of those promises. It's one thing to drop a promise, but something totally different to actually do a 180 degree about turn !
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Post by jaggas on May 3, 2019 19:52:14 GMT
They should honour their manifesto pledge under which they were elected to respect the result of the referendum and deliver Brexit, otherwise they will join the ranks of all those politicians who just lie and take the electorate for granted. But their membership is now telling them otherwise. That's their rock and hard place (much like the Tories in some respects) balancing the views of their membership with that of the wider electorate
THe only parties going to gain from this are the likes of The Lib Dems, BREXIT Party and possibly Change with the SNP maintaing their relative strength.
Labour aren't goin to win either way so they must choose a path and walk it and have to rebuild themselves
The majority that voted leave are not telling them otherwise and face facts the majority of Labour voters north of London overwhelmingly voted leave. The problem is the remainers claiming to speak for the folk that voted leave saying they have changed their minds and didn't know what they were voting for.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 20:19:50 GMT
But their membership is now telling them otherwise. That's their rock and hard place (much like the Tories in some respects) balancing the views of their membership with that of the wider electorate
THe only parties going to gain from this are the likes of The Lib Dems, BREXIT Party and possibly Change with the SNP maintaing their relative strength.
Labour aren't goin to win either way so they must choose a path and walk it and have to rebuild themselves
The majority that voted leave are not telling them otherwise and face facts the majority of Labour voters north of London overwhelmingly voted leave. The problem is the remainers claiming to speak for the folk that voted leave saying they have changed their minds and didn't know what they were voting for. If there is any vote that needs to be 'overturned' it is the one that took No Deal off the table, which won by ONE vote. Since then, the criminal MP who was released early from prison and was wearing an ankle tagging bracelet has been kicked out. She should not have been in the HoC at the time of the vote as she was breaking her curfew. Also, Keith Vaz voted. He is the MP who is too ill to be investigated for being a drug supplier! It is a corrupt Parliament.
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Post by jaggas on May 4, 2019 18:21:11 GMT
Keith Vaz there is a blast from the past, a Blair favourite who like fellow Blair favourite Mandleson is corrupt to the core and has a fetish for young boys....Vaz who is married has paid to bugger young boys probably added the cost of rent boys to his expenses.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2019 10:11:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 12:54:39 GMT
Question Time may be interesting tonight. Two Leavers on for a change. Nigel Farage v Anna Soubry should be funny. Just sit back and wait for her Gin fueled breakdown ! The totally useless Amber Rudd is also on.
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Post by devonblue on May 9, 2019 20:35:12 GMT
Brexshit = Brexshit
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Post by aghast on May 11, 2019 22:05:45 GMT
Brexit party ahead in the European election polls. On a general election, the poll shows Labour on 28%, Tories on 22 and Brexit on 21. I have to say I'm surprised by this. I thought the Leave vote was declining, but perhaps not.
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Post by stuart1974 on May 11, 2019 23:41:38 GMT
Brexit party ahead in the European election polls. On a general election, the poll shows Labour on 28%, Tories on 22 and Brexit on 21. I have to say I'm surprised by this. I thought the Leave vote was declining, but perhaps not. View Attachment Roughly speaking about 3/4 of the Conservative voters are leave as are about a quarter of Labour voters. What I think this shows is many of those leave voters now coalescing with the Brexit Party. In terms of voteshare, I'd almost see it as leave being The Brexit Party and UKIP and maybe about 1/3rd to half Conservatives and now 10% Labour with remain being most of the rest. On these figures it would be about 47/53, still very close. The EU elections will be seen as a pseudo referendum. What the politicians take from it will be key.
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Post by trevorgas on May 12, 2019 8:02:20 GMT
Brexit party ahead in the European election polls. On a general election, the poll shows Labour on 28%, Tories on 22 and Brexit on 21. I have to say I'm surprised by this. I thought the Leave vote was declining, but perhaps not. View Attachment Roughly speaking about 3/4 of the Conservative voters are leave as are about a quarter of Labour voters. What I think this shows is many of those leave voters now coalescing with the Brexit Party. In terms of voteshare, I'd almost see it as leave being The Brexit Party and UKIP and maybe about 1/3rd to half Conservatives and now 10% Labour with remain being most of the rest. On these figures it would be about 47/53, still very close. The EU elections will be seen as a pseudo referendum. What the politicians take from it will be key. I think what the politicians take from it will be irrelevant as they are incapable of coalescing around any way forward,it will be more interesting to see what the EU take from having a bucket load of Brexit MEPs, they may just decided they have had enough of the whole shambles and tell us to F..k off! !
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2019 9:18:27 GMT
Roughly speaking about 3/4 of the Conservative voters are leave as are about a quarter of Labour voters. What I think this shows is many of those leave voters now coalescing with the Brexit Party. In terms of voteshare, I'd almost see it as leave being The Brexit Party and UKIP and maybe about 1/3rd to half Conservatives and now 10% Labour with remain being most of the rest. On these figures it would be about 47/53, still very close. The EU elections will be seen as a pseudo referendum. What the politicians take from it will be key. I think what the politicians take from it will be irrelevant as they are incapable of coalescing around any way forward,it will be more interesting to see what the EU take from having a bucket load of Brexit MEPs, they may just decided they have had enough of the whole shambles and tell us to F..k off! ! What would be REALLY interesting is what would happen if people in the UK stopped believing in fairy stories or stopped their herd like behaviour in voting for Tory or Labour.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 12, 2019 16:45:28 GMT
Help me our here guys. At what point did we suddenly decide that what we really all voted for was no deal right from the beginning? Even Farage is at it.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2019 17:03:13 GMT
Help me our here guys. At what point did we suddenly decide that what we really all voted for was no deal right from the beginning? Even Farage is at it. It's Article 50. It quite clearly states that after two years a country must leave the EU either B/ with an Agreement, or B/ without an Agreement. Article 50 is part of the Lisbon Treaty. 498 MP's in the HoC voted to invoke Article 50. It is still the only option in the HoC regarding Brexit that has received an overwhelming vote. After being defeated three times, it is obvious May's Agreement has been rejected. That is Option A. So we are left with Option B. We voted to Leave the EU. To do that you MUST invoke Article 50. It's pretty simple really.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 12, 2019 17:09:11 GMT
Help me our here guys. At what point did we suddenly decide that what we really all voted for was no deal right from the beginning? Even Farage is at it. It's Article 50. It quite clearly states that after two years a country must leave the EU either B/ with an Agreement, or B/ without an Agreement. Article 50 is part of the Lisbon Treaty. 498 MP's in the HoC voted to invoke Article 50. It is still the only option in the HoC regarding Brexit that has received an overwhelming vote. After being defeated three times, it is obvious May's Agreement has been rejected. That is Option A. So we are left with Option B. We voted to Leave the EU. To do that you MUST invoke Article 50. It's pretty simple really. Perhaps you misunderstood me. At what point did everyone decide that they voted leave with a no deal scenario after all? Nigel was banging in about a Norway deal. Boris was on about access to the single market. Nobody mentioned a no deal pre-referendum but now everyone is acting as if that's what they voted for all along. Widespread clairvoyance?
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2019 17:25:23 GMT
It's Article 50. It quite clearly states that after two years a country must leave the EU either B/ with an Agreement, or B/ without an Agreement. Article 50 is part of the Lisbon Treaty. 498 MP's in the HoC voted to invoke Article 50. It is still the only option in the HoC regarding Brexit that has received an overwhelming vote. After being defeated three times, it is obvious May's Agreement has been rejected. That is Option A. So we are left with Option B. We voted to Leave the EU. To do that you MUST invoke Article 50. It's pretty simple really. Perhaps you misunderstood me. At what point did everyone decide that they voted leave with a no deal scenario after all? Nigel was banging in about a Norway deal. Boris was on about access to the single market. Nobody mentioned a no deal pre-referendum but now everyone is acting as if that's what they voted for all along. Widespread clairvoyance? I voted to leave full stop. If that was with no deal fine. If that was with a favourable deal fine. If that was with a sh** deal not fine - revert to no deal. The over riding outcome of the referendum is that the majority do not like being part of the EU and what it has become and therefore wanted to leave. I can't imagine any would have there fundamental desire to leave changed purely on the grounds of our politicians completely cocking up the terms of our exit. If that were to happen there would be no point in ever having such a referendum ever again as if MP's don't agree with the voting public they can just screw things up to ensure the will of the people is not carried through.
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